Why did opinions on these 2 Zelda games completely change after 10+ years?

[digdugnate]

i never got the chance to play Twilight Princess when it was released.  if there were eventual ports to the Switch of Wind Waker or Twilight Princess i'd check them out.

[Atariboy]

I think the opinion on Wind Waker changed almost immediately for many people.

 

A lot of people like myself that had loved Ocarina of Time and had been impressed with Nintendo's Zelda tech demo for the GameCube were expecting something very different than this. Heck, I even kept telling myself I had only preordered from Electronics Boutique just for the demo disc. I seriously considered not driving the half hour to pick it up at release in I think March or so of 2003, figuring the $15 or whatever I put down was a fair exchange for the Ocarina of Time disc.

 

The grainy screenshots and low resolution 15-20 second videos of the day did little to dissuade me and many other doubters, but when we all finally got to see it in person, I think many of us changed our tune very quickly. It ended up looking like a great classic 2D game realized in 3D. Visually my only complaint was that I never warmed up to how Link looked.

 

I think I had changed my mind before ever departing Link's island at the start of the game. It certainly didn't take me 10 years to change from being a hater to a big fan.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Atariboy

[Zap!]

4 hours ago, wongojack said:

 

Thanks for bumping this thread so I could read this review again.  I thought TP was shockingly bland when it came out when compared to the AAA games on other systems.  As the years go by, I agree more and more with this hilarious review: https://web.archive.org/web/20070716173345/http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=70

Interesting. Did you play it in 2006? It received near-universal praise then.

[Zap!]

1 hour ago, Atariboy said:

I think the opinion on Wind Waker changed almost immediately for many people.

 

A lot of people like myself that had loved Ocarina of Time and had been impressed with Nintendo's Zelda tech demo for the GameCube were expecting something very different than this. Heck, I even kept telling myself I had only preordered from Electronics Boutique just for the demo disc. I seriously considered not driving the half hour to pick it up at release in I think March or so of 2003, figuring the $15 or whatever I put down was a fair exchange for the Ocarina of Time disc.

 

The grainy screenshots and low resolution 15-20 second videos of the day did little to dissuade me and many other doubters, but when we all finally got to see it in person, I think many of us changed our tune very quickly. It ended up looking like a great classic 2D game realized in 3D. Visually my only complaint was that I never warmed up to how Link looked.

 

I think I had changed my mind before ever departing Link's island at the start of the game. It certainly didn't take me 10 years to change from being a hater to a big fan.

I'm not a hater, but I can never be a big fan. It always rubbed me the wrong way for some reason, and I could never get into it. I respect others opinions, but I can never understand those that put it in the top three. I've seen it so high as two in one "top 10" list I watched last week. Wish I could remember the link.

[Atariboy]

I don't rank it as a top Zelda title in my mind, but it's a very solid B+ to A- effort for sure. 

 

It has a lot of minor flaws (Several of which were massaged and largely rectified for the remaster), but there are easily a half dozen Zelda games I'd rank above this one if I were forced to try to list them in order. 

[+wongojack]

On 11/13/2017 at 9:42 PM, wongojack said:

/\/\/\ Above review is hilarious and I actually really get where they are coming from.

 

My experience with these two is a little unusual. I played TP in about 2009 and was playing it at the same time as other AAA games of the era like Mass Effect and Bioshock and God of War II. My reaction to TP was not colored by any blind love for Zelda or the Wii, and I was pretty underwhelmed by TP. The fishing tutorial was confounding, and I found myself wondering what kind of game they were trying to make exactly. The dungeons were nice, but the open world was really empty and the total lack of any real RPG elements made shopping for arrows feel pretty pointless. I finished the game, but couldn't figure out where all the high reviews were coming from.

 

I had purchased WW used for the Gamecube after never owning a GC. I started playing it right after TP (on the Wii). That was a mistake, because I played it long enough to get through the first dungeon which had some puzzles that were repeated 100% from TP (or the other way around). I didn't really get into the boat thing, and so I quit playing the game and never went back.

 

I've played all these games out of order and only recently played Ocarina of Time. I think I like Ocarina better than either of them, but the gameplay is so reminiscent that I'm not sure they are all even worth playing. My advice would be to skip every other 3D Zelda to avoid fatigue and only play one Zelda 3D game per year.

 

 

3 hours ago, Zap! said:

Interesting. Did you play it in 2006? It received near-universal praise then.

 

Yes, I remembered the almost universal praise from 3 years earlier when I played it in 2009.  That's why I was so surprised to find an empty world full of only idiots and useless arrows to purchase.

[Zap!]

3 hours ago, wongojack said:

Yes, I remembered the almost universal praise from 3 years earlier when I played it in 2009.  That's why I was so surprised to find an empty world full of only idiots and useless arrows to purchase.

Having the best dungeons in the entire Zelda series more than made up for that IMO. Perhaps missing the magic of playing it in 2006 hurt they way you feel; It's as almost if your expectations were too high, since you read and heard everyone praise it. I was the first of my friends to get it, there wasn't anyone to tell me how good or not the game was. And as YouTube was in its infancy in November 2006, I didn't see any video reviews either.

 

 Sorta like Skyward Sword. I didn't play it until 2016, put it down after an hour or two and never came back. I'm sure I'd love it if I had played it in 2011.

[Flojomojo]

14 hours ago, Zap! said:

Interesting. Did you play it in 2006? It received near-universal praise then.

I tried to. I got stuck on fishing and abandoned it. Admittedly, I'm pretty stupid and have a short attention span, but it's not my job to make fetch quests interesting. 

[Tanooki]

I abandoned TP too, and I got that thing maybe a year or two after the shoddy Wii version popped up as a gift.  I immediately loved the superior handling and more natural feeling control of it though as I was just fighting the game challenge, not the shitty control as much as the game if not more.

 

My issue with TP was the wide open sparse places you had to slog all over on foot.  Combined with the throw back to the cart days style saving where you may hit save, but you only return from the last door, cave, dungeon you popped out of making for some long walks back over traveled space.  The enemies were dumb as rocks, not that I want something nasty, but I mean it was hello kitty level challenge walking about.  The dungeons I did do were fairly fun, better than ocarina of time to me and some in wind waker too.  The pacing sucks, the save throwback really irked me, and I just got bored walking all over the place as being awed by scenery only lasts so long before it's a snore.  I've never played more than half that game I think, still have it though.

 

Since skyward sword came up, I have a similar love hate there too.  The so called 1:1 controls were abysmal in places, especially against the ghirahim with the sword/shield tactics as they were god awful.  The motion control didn't enhance but damaged the fun to a point I stopped on it too, though I didn't feel it was sparse and a snore like TP was.  I'd go back to either if they got touched up with the motion crap removed.

[Atariboy]

I haven't yet cracked open Skyward Sword (Although I've owned it now for 4 or 5 years), but I hope I enjoy it. 

[roots.genoa]

4 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I've never played more than half that game I think

I guess you didn't got the spinner, then.   The dungeon boss reminded me of Gunstar Heroes. ?

[Zap!]

12 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Since skyward sword came up, I have a similar love hate there too.  The so called 1:1 controls were abysmal in places, especially against the ghirahim with the sword/shield tactics as they were god awful.  The motion control didn't enhance but damaged the fun to a point I stopped on it too, though I didn't feel it was sparse and a snore like TP was.  I'd go back to either if they got touched up with the motion crap removed.

Damn, we're so different on this. I thought the motion controls for TP were the greatest thing since sliced bread. I never had any problems at all. Perhaps my TV was the perfect size, and my couch was the perfect distance. I don't know, but I found the controls perfect. 

 

Off-topic but I thought Resident Evil 4 was so great with the Wii's controls, that I've never enjoyed playing any RE since without the Nunchuck and Wiimote.

[Atariboy]

Television size actually didn't affect the Wii remote. The Wii's sensor bar was one size fits all, which is all that the Wii remote looked at when it was utilized as a pointer.

 

The only adjustment was in the Wii's settings where you could indicate if it was located under or above your tv. That's the sum of the Wii's knowledge of the specifics of your television, although certain Wii titles like Ghost Squad did have a calibration routine that could simulate awareness of your television's size.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Atariboy

[Flojomojo]

The sensor bar is passive, all it does is project two infrared dots to help the remote find its place in space. You don't need the official sensor bar, you can have the same effect with tea lights on either corner of your screen. I use these "wii sensor eyes" that plug into the USB of my TV and it gives a wider field than the sensor bar. I believe this makes my Wii controller somewhat less jittery and way easier for it to orient itself. 
 

https://forums.dolphin-emu.org/Thread-wii-sensor-eyes

[Atariboy]

I actually believe it was more than 2 IR lights. It was a full fledged array of IR lights, but I've forgotten the exact total that's incorporated into the official sensor bar. 

[Tanooki]

9 hours ago, Zap! said:

Damn, we're so different on this. I thought the motion controls for TP were the greatest thing since sliced bread. I never had any problems at all. Perhaps my TV was the perfect size, and my couch was the perfect distance. I don't know, but I found the controls perfect. 

 

Off-topic but I thought Resident Evil 4 was so great with the Wii's controls, that I've never enjoyed playing any RE since without the Nunchuck and Wiimote.

I don't know what the deal was.  But essentially I found that I could never manage to pull off the so called easy starter move of instantly swap between the shield and sword to attack the dude.  That first time I ground away at it like 15-20min getting nowhere.  I eventually lost my temper and looked at the manual again and decided since I had some restoratives already in hand and a full life bar to restart with another tactic.  I shield bashed the crap out of the dude where he'd stagger for like just under a second, and maybe 1 in 10 shots would hit in finally with the sword.  Basically I'd end up each encounter blowing through most/all my cures and running myself down to near death just to shove the dude off to move the story along and I grew tired of it.  After that I didn't much care for the big black worm thing either I've seen people dump on online too that I can't remember the name of now.  It was a true love hate with that game because I knew if I could skate around and nail things like I could with real control I'd have enjoyed it far more.

 

Keep in mind since it was 1:1 the wii sensor bar wasn't even as much the issue, it was the motion plus aspect of the game with that 1:1 tracking.  I tried differing just in case distances and lighting in various locations just to make sure it wasn't lame interference but it had no effect.

 

 

To be clear though I never loved the Wii's motion controls either in games where it was clearly tacked on more than not.  I had trouble with TP too.  A perfect example would be the early in the game burning cart enemies on giant boars roundabout.  I had the Wii game a year before the GC one, and when I tried to do the boar thing I failed it repeatedly, I was fighting the controls and camera more than actually aiming and striking enemies to defend the cart and it would always burn and fail.  Eventually on dumb luck I pulled it off like once after about 20 minutes or so of effort.  I also found the slow pointing controls using secondary weapons a bit of a pain, nor did I care for the non precise waggle strikes of the sword either.  When I did get the GC game though, I took down the boar scene in the first pass in a matter of the moments it took to dispatch the enemies never coming close to a fail, also found using the secondary weapons more quick and fluid too on there.  It was a nice idea, just often enough badly applied, as some things just worked better than others.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Tanooki

[+wongojack]

On 12/3/2019 at 10:11 PM, Zap! said:

Having the best dungeons in the entire Zelda series more than made up for that IMO. Perhaps missing the magic of playing it in 2006 hurt they way you feel; It's as almost if your expectations were too high, since you read and heard everyone praise it. I was the first of my friends to get it, there wasn't anyone to tell me how good or not the game was. And as YouTube was in its infancy in November 2006, I didn't see any video reviews either.

 

 Sorta like Skyward Sword. I didn't play it until 2016, put it down after an hour or two and never came back. I'm sure I'd love it if I had played it in 2011.

Honestly, I don't consider 2006 to 2009 a delay at all.  The Wii was still Nintendo's flagship system, and I was still playing games on the PS2 from the previous generation.  I remember specifically playing God of War II (released in 2007) and then Twilight Princess.  Both games have 3d style combat with a variety of enemies, but there is no comparison regarding which one is more fun.  I also played the original Mass Effect (released in 2007) which has a vastly more compelling story and characters than anything in Twilight Princess.  Playing those other 2 games in 2009 did not diminish my appreciation for them, so I don't see why I should judge Twilight Princess by another standard.  If it already feels like an outdated game compared to games that came out a few months later then it is not good.

 

BTW - I did really enjoy the dungeons.  I'm not sure if they are the best ever because I feel like a lot of the dungeons in 3d Zelda borrow from each other, but I really had fun with them.

[+wongojack]

21 hours ago, Atariboy said:

I haven't yet cracked open Skyward Sword (Although I've owned it now for 4 or 5 years), but I hope I enjoy it. 

Same