did the jaguar have the ability to be a commercial success?

[rayik]

No chance at being successful. Bought one the day they became available. I think there were 1 or 2 titles available. Almost returned it a couple of days later. BITD impression was graphics were slightly better than Sega Genesis. Games for the most part were not. Only AVP, T2K and Doom made it worth owning.

 

Another BITD impression was that Atari was broke. In the Philadelphia metro area, video game stores were getting literally 10 or less copies of new releases, including the "A" games. If you were not on the very short pre-order list, forget getting AVP or T2K for months anytime soon after release.

 

Games like Checkered Flag just kills any momentum

[JagCD]

Yeah, I'm sure PC gamers would've loved to play Breakout 2000 instead of all the other PC games. Just like all the 7800 fans who loved playing Scrapyard Dog vs SMB on the NES, or Hat Trick instead of Blades of Steel.

 

Breakout 2000 is one of my favorite games of all time -- not sure I could give an unbiased view of that..... The 2 player mode is insanely cool IMO.

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[PFG 9000]

It always has and always will come down to the games. If the Jag had more and better games early on, then of course it could have been a commercial success. But you can't keep a console alive on a slow drip of mediocre software.

[ZylonBane]

Breakout 2000 is one of my favorite games of all time -- not sure I could give an unbiased view of that..... The 2 player mode is insanely cool IMO.

 

But... Breakout 2000 is terrible. It plays and sounds like a C64 game, and not a very good one at that.

 

As for this dumb thread, of course the Jaguar had the raw ability to be a success, as the few well-programmed titles demonstrate. It just didn't have enough money thrown at it for marketing, dev tools, and in-house development.

[JagCD]

 

But... Breakout 2000 is terrible. It plays and sounds like a C64 game, and not a very good one at that.

 

As for this dumb thread, of course the Jaguar had the raw ability to be a success, as the few well-programmed titles demonstrate. It just didn't have enough money thrown at it for marketing, dev tools, and in-house development.

 

You are lost without a paddle. You may personally not like the game -- but most web site reviews usually give it an overall rating around a 7 or 8 out of 10. I like Breakout 2000 better than Defender 2000,

but IMO it is not quite as good as Tempest 2000. It was a worthy successor to Breakout on the earlier Atari consoles -- the soundtrack wasn't as epic as Tempest 2000 -- but neither was any other game

on the Jaguar.

 

I own a C64 -- so the comment is laughably dumb. BO2K is a quality title -- but you have to love the originals to enjoy the new one.

 

https://www.gamefaqs.com/jaguar/586875-breakout-2000/reviews/30508

https://sites.google.com/site/disjaukifasjaguarreviews/games-2/production/breakout-2000

http://justclaws.atari.org/jagudome/jagrev/b2k02.htm

http://www.atarihq.com/reviews/jaguar/breakout_2000.html

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[Tidus79001]

Yeah, who could forget all those great games developed by Atari in the mid 90s like Club Drive and Trevor McFur. They absolutely could've survived as a software company with franchises like those to their name.

Yeah, I'm sure PC gamers would've loved to play Breakout 2000 instead of all the other PC games. Just like all the 7800 fans who loved playing Scrapyard Dog vs SMB on the NES, or Hat Trick instead of Blades of Steel.

I have to agree with you on this.

 

Nintendo realized that the home video game market was a different beast than the arcades. As a result Nintendo ushered in the age of the platformer and the RPG genre. They realized that games needed to get the gamer more invested in caring about the game and as a result games became more complex in both game play and stories engaged the players. This lead to many franchises which most notably is the Super Mario and Zelda series.

 

Atari was always stuck in the mode of arcade style games and trying to translate that experience to their home systems and that was understandable as Atari's success had started there and those roots in arcade machines that made them a lot of money and given them a big library of titles to cash in on. The video game market that Atari has know so well and made bank on until the market crash for the most part had changed around them and by the time they were ready to get back into it with the 7800 they found themselves for the first time with real competition in a strange & different world than the one that they had previously ruled. Atari was slow to try adopt change and Nintendo ran circles around them with amazing first party titles and as a result of those titles they manage to lock up almost all of ththird party talent as well. If Atari had been more focused on building amazing first party franchise titles and creating franchises that made gamers want to own their consoles they might have fared better against Nintendo, but as a result of being resistant to change Atari felt old and dated to the kids growing up with the NES as their first taste of video games (I am old enough to have been there when Atari was the only game in town, but I remember when the age of the NES dawned and no one wanted to the kid that owned an Atari as all the cool kids had Nintendo). Atari would try at times to compete but their games usually came of as poor copycat imitations of the successful title that Nintendo had already pioneered (just a Madman pointed out Scrapyard Dog vs Super Mario Brothers on the NES, or Hat Trick vs of Blades of Steel). By the time Atari had realized that they needed to stop trying to live off the successes of their past start innovating in order to survive they were too cash strapped and broken as company be able to effectively change course.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Tidus79001

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

The 7800? Already been covered. Who wants a bunch of old one-screen games when you can have Super Mario Bros?

 

Right, because Desert Falcon, Choplifter, Ballblazer, Karateka, Xevious and Pole Position II were totally boring single screen games with graphics nowhere near as lush and colorful as SMB.....

 

fumes.

[Tempest]

7800 Karateka is a crime against humanity, but thats going off topic.

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

7800 Karateka is a crime against humanity, but thats going off topic.

 

fair enough..... lol

[JagChris]

 

Right, because Desert Falcon, Choplifter, Ballblazer, Karateka, Xevious and Pole Position II were totally boring single screen games with graphics nowhere near as lush and colorful as SMB.....

 

fumes.

But the big trend was in multi world platformers. Most of what you named you could play in the arcade. And while fun were not as immersive. Atari needed more immersive 'take me away from it all' type games players could come home to.

 

Am I agreeing with MADMAN? ERMAGAWD

[phoenixdownita]

 

Right, because Desert Falcon, Choplifter, Ballblazer, Karateka, Xevious and Pole Position II were totally boring single screen games with graphics nowhere near as lush and colorful as SMB.....

 

fumes.

Choplifter and Xevious were on NES too (not sure I like any of them, but the NES version looks more similar to the original), Pole Position II reeks of old and it's a Namco game (so Atari is really only a publisher, like they were for the first).

Ballblazer is what it is, it gets boring soon, the NES version is even worse (bleah), Karateka (....nevermind) .... we're left with Desert Falcon.

Not a bad Zaxxon-ian take but the gameplay is seriously flawed, having to land and "chicken around" really breaks momentum.

 

Man ... you really picked the cream of the crop, maybe you were sarcastic ... yeah, that's the story I'm gonna tell myself, JB was been sarcastic.

[JagCD]

I have to agree with you on this.

 

Nintendo realized that the home video game market was a different beast than the arcades. As a result Nintendo ushered in the age of the platformer and the RPG genre. They realized that games needed to get the gamer more invested in caring about the game and as a result games became more complex in both game play and stories engaged the players. This lead to many franchises which most notably is the Super Mario and Zelda series.

 

Atari was always stuck in the mode of arcade style games and trying to translate that experience to their home systems and that was understandable as Atari's success had started there and those roots in arcade machines that made them a lot of money and given them a big library of titles to cash in on. The video game market that Atari has know so well and made bank on until the market crash for the most part had changed around them and by the time they were ready to get back into it with the 7800 they found themselves for the first time with real competition in a strange & different world than the one that they had previously ruled. Atari was slow to try adopt change and Nintendo ran circles around them with amazing first party titles and as a result of those titles they manage to lock up almost all of ththird party talent as well. If Atari had been more focused on building amazing first party franchise titles and creating franchises that made gamers want to own their consoles they might have fared better against Nintendo, but as a result of being resistant to change Atari felt old and dated to the kids growing up with the NES as their first taste of video games (I am old enough to have been there when Atari was the only game in town, but I remember when the age of the NES dawned and no one wanted to the kid that owned an Atari as all the cool kids had Nintendo). Atari would try at times to compete but their games usually came of as poor copycat imitations of the successful title that Nintendo had already pioneered (just a Madman pointed out Scrapyard Dog vs Super Mario Brothers on the NES, or Hat Trick vs of Blades of Steel). By the time Atari had realized that they needed to stop trying to live off the successes of their past start innovating in order to survive they were too cash strapped and broken as company be able to effectively change course.

 

Really, if you look at Super Mario Brothers objectively -- it was a great technical achievement and the gameplay is great. But it really just repeats over and over again just like the Atari arcade games you are criticizing. IMO Super Mario Brothers 2 was complete trash (it was originally developed as a Non-Mario game, then got the sprites reworked to become SMB2). The only Super Mario I actually liked on NES was Super Mario Brothers 3, which was indeed amazing. But that came along around the time that the 7800 had largely been abandoned.

 

Further, the original NES hardware was a flaming piece of shit. I bought a 7800 and Sega Master System at the time simply because I would not tolerate the blinking red light of death. The console bent pins every time you inserted a game cartridge. I waited until the Nintendo top loader was released before I started collecting that system.

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[LutzfromOz]

OP, is back, and jiminy jellickers, ive definately heard some answers that have givin me leverage, the machine was allegedly difficult to program on but had to be a lot easier than the saturn (which i adore), anyways i reckon mortal kombat 3 could have given them some leverage. i guess the reason i created this discussion is because i was reading up on Jeff Minter, and how the ceos behind the jaguar dispised his idea to release tempest on the system, and wow, it was like in the top 3 of electronic gaming monthlys gameslist at the time

[+CyranoJ]

the machine was allegedly difficult to program on

 

Please don't start spreading this myth again.

[LutzfromOz]

 

Please don't start spreading this myth again.

 

​no intention to spread myth, I'm heavily assuming in 1994 it was, and I know homebrews do require a lot of time and work, but come on, this should be ataris box of ressurection

Edited November 18, 2017 by LutzfromOz

[+CyranoJ]

 

​no intention to spread myth, I'm heavily assuming in 1994 it was, and I know homebrews do require a lot of time and work, but come on, this should be ataris box of ressurection

 

It was no more difficult to code on than any of the systems that came before it then, and still isn't that difficult today.

[+madman]

Further, the original NES hardware was a flaming piece of shit. I bought a 7800 and Sega Master System at the time simply because I would not tolerate the blinking red light of death. The console bent pins every time you inserted a game cartridge. I waited until the Nintendo top loader was released before I started collecting that system.

I'll ignore the first half of your post as I'm used to your nonsense, but this part...you really bought a 7800 simply because you encountered nothing but broken NESs? I've still got my original NES from 85 or 86 with the same ZIF connector. No issues. I never knew anyone who had a NES that was so bad they gave up and said, "well I guess instead of cleaning the cart connector, I'll just buy a 7800. Who needs the Mario games, Zelda, Contra, Mega Man or Punch Out when there's Asteroids and Xenophobe." This is one of the dumbest things I've heard on here.

[+madman]

It was no more difficult to code on than any of the systems that came before it then, and still isn't that difficult today.

It wouldn't be a Jag "what if" thread without the obligatory, "I'm not a programmer, but my assumption on programming is..."

[Tidus79001]

Really, if you look at Super Mario Brothers objectively -- it was a great technical achievement and the gameplay is great. But it really just repeats over and over again just like the Atari arcade games you are criticizing. IMO Super Mario Brothers 2 was complete trash (it was originally developed as a Non-Mario game, then got the sprites reworked to become SMB2). The only Super Mario I actually liked on NES was Super Mario Brothers 3, which was indeed amazing. But that came along around the time that the 7800 had largely been abandoned.

 

Further, the original NES hardware was a flaming piece of shit. I bought a 7800 and Sega Master System at the time simply because I would not tolerate the blinking red light of death. The console bent pins every time you inserted a game cartridge. I waited until the Nintendo top loader was released before I started collecting that system.

I am not criticizing Atari's arcade games as they had some very good titles that I enjoy. All I did was state "Nintendo realized that the home video game market was a different beast than the arcades". Super Mario Brother was more in depth than any other game at the time when it came it out (it required strategy, contained easter eggs and in catchy in game music and for the time superb graphics) and the game kept you wanting to find all the secrets and keep coming back for more. I know all about the history that the Super Mario Bros 2 released in the US was Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic with Mario spites added and I like Super Mario Bros 2 as has new characters and different game play from Super Mario Bros 1 (the Japanese version of Super Mario Bros 2 might as well just be call Super Mario Bros 1.5). I am die hard Atari fan and rooted hard for Atari back in those days, but being intellectually honest I have to admit that Nintendo had the better games and has always put focus even to this day on making stellar titles that make it compelling to own their systems just for those titles alone. Now the Ataribox is being teased at us and I can't help but be excited and root for Atari again because once an Atari fanboy always an Atari fanboy. One think that I would like to see come back is 2D games, but mow with the graphics that are possible from modern hardware and this genre has been slowly making its comeback over the past decade, but no one yes has capitalized on that and I feel that is where the Ataribox could carve out a niche and succeed brilliantly.

 

One thing personally that I don't enjoy about some arcade games is that many are just shoot em up with no real goal other then to rack up point. For me it is very gratifying to complete a game or to achieve some set goal (to me just racking up points until you die is just not fulfilling). For me I want platformers, adventure games, and RPG's and unfortunately Atari was always lacking in those type of games. Now things that Nintendo didn't offer me were great games like Star Raiders and the space sims games have were always among my favorites and I still love playing them even today. Being a big fan of Atari it was frustrating to me to see the 7800, Lynx and Jaguar fail reach thier potential while other less advanced systems such as the NES, Gameboy and Super Nintendo ran circles around them.

[LutzfromOz]

come on lads lets keep this jaguar relevant, and no flame wars. it kicks me in the balls that the piece of crap checkred flag was so abomonationally aweful, it was a virtua racing clone but played aweful, the jaguar could have atleast been its own nich'e market, even if its library of games were small, it should have gone for broke on the whole quality over quantity

[Tidus79001]

come on lads lets keep this jaguar relevant, and no flame wars. it kicks me in the balls that the piece of crap checkred flag was so abomonationally aweful, it was a virtua racing clone but played aweful, the jaguar could have atleast been its own nich'e market, even if its library of games were small, it should have gone for broke on the whole quality over quantity

I wasn't flame warring. I didn't make any attacks on anyone. I am just clarifying my thoughts on my previous post.

[+madman]

come on lads lets keep this jaguar relevant, and no flame wars.

You must be new here.

 

it should have gone for broke on the whole quality over quantity

Atari didn't know the meaning of quality back then, nor did they care. The writing was on the wall. No combination of "what ifs" could've ever saved Atari or the Jaguar. To quote another member here, FACTS.

[JagCD]

I'll ignore the first half of your post as I'm used to your nonsense, but this part...you really bought a 7800 simply because you encountered nothing but broken NESs? I've still got my original NES from 85 or 86 with the same ZIF connector. No issues. I never knew anyone who had a NES that was so bad they gave up and said, "well I guess instead of cleaning the cart connector, I'll just buy a 7800. Who needs the Mario games, Zelda, Contra, Mega Man or Punch Out when there's Asteroids and Xenophobe." This is one of the dumbest things I've heard on here.

Okay, first -- I'm the one with a reputation for nonsense? Okay, madman... Whatever you are smoking today.... May I have some?

 

Second, the Nintendo Entertainment System's massive design flaw has been well documented. So you are just lying through your teeth right now.

http://www.retrofixes.com/2013/07/nintendo-72-pin-connector.html

 

Yes, I avoided the first generation NES console -- because I watched several of my friends blowing into cartridges, endless blinking red lights... And only getting their first-gen NES to properly run a game maybe 30-40% of the time.

Cleaning the cartridge doesn't resolve the design flaw -- the pins were incredibly fragile due to Nintendo trying to make the original system load cartridges like a VCR. The original Famicon was fine, but the redesign into the Nintendo

Entertainment System caused a massive design flaw.

 

I owned an Atari 2600, Sega Master System, Commodore 64 and 7800 by this point in history. I knew how to clean game cartridges.

 

Your revisionist history is a joke.

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[LutzfromOz]

You must be new here.

 

Atari didn't know the meaning of quality back then, nor did they care. The writing was on the wall. No combination of "what ifs" could've ever saved Atari or the Jaguar. To quote another member here, FACTS.

 

that is a valid point sir, but the best console version of doom ive played pre-ps1 is the jaguar version, the slightly enhanced version of wolf3d, nba jam was nice... and they were on there way to release MK3, but cancelled, this system could have pumped out something close to a ps1 launch title "3d wise" meaning under some sort of quality control, as in a passible 3d title

Edited November 18, 2017 by LutzfromOz

[+madman]

Okay, first -- I'm the one with a reputation for nonsense? Okay, madman... Whatever you are smoking today.... May I have some?

 

Second, the Nintendo Entertainment System's massive design flaw has been well documented. So you are just lying through your teeth right now.

http://www.retrofixes.com/2013/07/nintendo-72-pin-connector.html

 

Yes, I avoided the first generation NES console -- because I watched several of my friends blowing into cartridges, endless blinking red lights... And only getting their first-gen NES to properly run a game maybe 30-40% of the time.

Cleaning the cartridge doesn't resolve the design flaw -- the pins were incredibly fragile due to Nintendo trying to make the original system load cartridges like a VCR. The original Famicon was fine, but the redesign into the Nintendo

Entertainment System caused a massive design flaw.

 

I owned an Atari 2600, Sega Master System, Commodore 64 and 7800 by this point in history. I knew how to clean game cartridges.

 

Your revisionist history is a joke.

I talk facts, not nonsense. Though I realize those are not well received by certain people on here. I'd probably be more well liked if I talked Rayman conspiracy theories or Tomb Raider on the Jag CD.

 

Yes, I'm aware of problems with the NES connector. Which is why I mentioned I never knew anyone who had a NES that was "so bad" they gave up on owning one or affected someone else's purchase of the system. And I certainly never knew anyone who thought, "well my friend sometimes has to clean his NES carts, I guess I oughta buy a 7800 instead as I simply cannot tolerate the NES." Sales numbers would back up my "nonsense." But hey, I'm sure you enjoyed that 7800.

 

What history did I try to revise?