did the jaguar have the ability to be a commercial success?

[JagCD]

I am not criticizing Atari's arcade games as they had some very good titles that I enjoy. All I did was state "Nintendo realized that the home video game market was a different beast than the arcades". Super Mario Brother was more in depth than any other game at the time when it came it out (it required strategy, contained easter eggs and in catchy in game music and for the time superb graphics) and the game kept you wanting to find all the secrets and keep coming back for more. I know all about the history that the Super Mario Bros 2 released in the US was Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic with Mario spites added and I like Super Mario Bros 2 as has new characters and different game play from Super Mario Bros 1 (the Japanese version of Super Mario Bros 2 might as well just be call Super Mario Bros 1.5). I am die hard Atari fan and rooted hard for Atari back in those days, but being intellectually honest I have to admit that Nintendo had the better games and has always put focus even to this day on making stellar titles that make it compelling to own their systems just for those titles alone. Now the Ataribox is being teased at us and I can't help but be excited and root for Atari again because once an Atari fanboy always an Atari fanboy. One think that I would like to see come back is 2D games, but mow with the graphics that are possible from modern hardware and this genre has been slowly making its comeback over the past decade, but no one yes has capitalized on that and I feel that is where the Ataribox could carve out a niche and succeed brilliantly.

 

 

 

Likes and dislikes are entirely subjective.

 

To say Nintendo had better games is entirely subjective. They made different games from Atari -- many of which I never actually liked. In all honesty, Sega was my favorite platform of the 8 bit generation. Between Phantasy Star, Shinobi, Alex Kidd, Sonic The Hedgehog and Castle of Illusion -- I never played any games nearly as much on the 7800 or the NES when I was a kid. If your basing graphics as the criteria for who made the best games too, the Sega Master System walked all over the Nintendo Entertainment System.

[JagCD]

I talk facts, not nonsense. Though I realize those are not well received by certain people on here. I'd probably be more well liked if I talked Rayman conspiracy theories or Tomb Raider on the Jag CD.

 

Yes, I'm aware of problems with the NES connector. Which is why I mentioned I never knew anyone who had a NES that was "so bad" they gave up on owning one or affected someone else's purchase of the system. And I certainly never knew anyone who thought, "well my friend sometimes has to clean his NES carts, I guess I oughta buy a 7800 instead as I simply cannot tolerate the NES." Sales numbers would back up my "nonsense." But hey, I'm sure you enjoyed that 7800.

 

What history did I try to revise?

 

I knew several people that did go with Sega or Atari instead of Nintendo because of the NES hardware being such a disaster. I also suspect that NES consoles sales in the USA were greatly inflated because I knew several Nintendo players at the time that ended up buying at least 2 or 3 of the consoles -- just to be able to play the damn games (it was like the classic era Xbox 360 and the red ring of death all over again).

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[+madman]

I knew several people that did go with Sega or Atari instead of Nintendo because of the NES hardware being such a disaster. I also suspect that NES consoles sales in the USA were greatly inflated because I knew several Nintendo players at the time that ended up buying at least 2 or 3 of the consoles -- just to be able to play the damn games (it was like the classic era Xbox 360 and the red ring of death all over again).

Now NES sales were "greatly" inflated because people were buying multiple consoles? How great do you figure? 3x? And I'm the one talking nonsense?

[Raticon]

I always thought that the Jag could potentially compete as a budget-system well below Playstation, N64 and the like if it had developers making games for it that were worthwile, not totally unlike how the 2600 still held *some* relevance as a budget-level system through the 80's in the shadow of the NES and similar systems.

Of course that isn't where any console maker want to be, being regarded as the poor mans choice for gaming. It would at best be a temporary position if Atari had managed to play the cheap underdog for a few years and biding time and planning ahead, then betting all their meagre bucks on a "killer-successor" system, perhaps the Jag 2, that would struggle to compete just like the Jag did in it's time and ultimately doom Atari just as it happened in our timeline, albeit a few more years ahead.

They didn't have the big bucks to compete with Sony and Sega and later Microsoft who had, and still has in Sony and Ms case, massive mega-corporations behind them to shovel in money when it is needed. Atari didn't have those kind of resources.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Raticon

[Tidus79001]

Likes and dislikes are entirely subjective.

 

To say Nintendo had better games is entirely subjective. They made different games from Atari -- many of which I never actually liked. In all honesty, Sega was my favorite platform of the 8 bit generation. Between Phantasy Star, Shinobi, Alex Kidd, Sonic The Hedgehog and Castle of Illusion -- I never played any games nearly as much on the 7800 or the NES when I was a kid. If your basing graphics as the criteria for who made the best games too, the Sega Master System walked all over the Nintendo Entertainment System.

I am going by the numbers. It would be revisionist history and completely absurd for anyone to not admit that Nintendo didn't win that 8-bit wars going on between the NES, 7800 and Master System. Nintendo sold more games than Atari ever did with any of their titles on the 7800 . Edited November 18, 2017 by Tidus79001

[JagCD]

I am going by the numbers. It would be revisionist history and completely absurd for anyone to admit that Nintendo didn't win that 8-bit wars going on between the NES, 7800 and Master System. Nintendo sold more games than Atari ever did with any of their titles on the 7800 .

 

Nintendo got their clock cleaned by Sega in Europe. So it really depends on where you actually lived. Nintendo never had a chance with 8 bit on that continent. Sega also kicked their ass in Brazil. So Sega "won" the 8 bit war in both South America and Europe. Just because it happened in the USA, doesn't mean it happened worldwide.

 

Atari Corporation got propped up by Europe for years -- despite nearly constant failure in their home market.

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[Tidus79001]

Nintendo got their clock cleaned by Sega in Europe. So it really depends on where you actually lived. Nintendo never had a chance with 8 bit on that continent. Sega also kicked their ass in Brazil. So Sega "won" the 8 bit war in both South America and Europe.

I am talking worldwide as opposed to who did better in regions, but if you want to go regions typically it is the US and Japan that are the mainstream markets while other regions are secondary markets with few titles exclusive to those regions and Nintendo owned both the US and Japanese markets hands down by the time the dust hand settled down on that era.

[JagCD]

I am talking worldwide as opposed to who did better in regions, but if you want to go regions typically it is the US and Japan that are the mainstream markets while other regions are secondary markets with few titles exclusive to those regions and Nintendo owned both the US and Japanese markets hands down by the time the dust hand settled down on that era.

 

You've got to be kidding me.

There are way more people living on a continent like Europe than a small island like Japan.

 

Europe had a ton of software development, especially during this era.

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[Tidus79001]

You've got to be kidding me.

There are way more people living on a continent like Europe than a small island like Japan.

 

You are really offensive calling me a racist. How is stating that the two main market in which games are produced is racist. Maybe you should go consult a dictionary and learn what the definition of being a racist is. You are being a jackass calling me a racist because I won't agree with you delusional assessment of that era in 8-bit gaming. Funny that you decided to edit that racist comment out of your post! Edited November 18, 2017 by Tidus79001

[JagCD]

You are really offensive calling me a racist. How is stating that the two main market in which games are produced is racist. Maybe you should go consult a dictionary and learn what the definition of being a racist is. You are being a jackass calling me a racist because I won't agree with you delusional assessment of that era in 8-bit gaming. Funny that you decided to edit that racist comment out of your post!

 

By implying that Europeans are inferior / irrelavent. That's kind of a textbook example.

 

I did tone it down, but your implication was pretty evident.

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[Tidus79001]

By implying that Europeans are inferior / irrelavent. That's kind of a textbook example.

 

I did tone it down, but your implication was pretty evident.

I challenge you to show me where I said that Europeans are inferior or even imply that. Again you are complete jackass who is trying twist my words into something that I never said or implied. It is you who brought race into this and not I, so don't even try it.

[JagCD]

I challenge you to show me where I said that Europeans are inferior or even imply that. Again you are complete jackass who is trying twist my words into something that I never said or implied. It is you who brought race into this and not I, so don't even try it.

 

You also conveniently edited the comment out, too. Around 11:27am. Can't blame you for also correcting yourself, toning it down. It has no place here, but you went there whether you intended or not.

Edited November 18, 2017 by JagCD

[Tidus79001]

You also conveniently edited the comment out, too. Around 11:27am.

I haven't edited any comment like the one you are claiming. I edited a spelling error in my post and included "Funny that you decided to edit that racist comment out of your post!" after noticing that you removed you racist comment. Nice try jackass. Edited November 18, 2017 by Tidus79001

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

Wow looks like it turned into a flame war afterall.... On a side note more to the topic maybe if Atari had included 4MB of system RAM and a free team tap pack in with every console plus a FUN 4 player game they could have stood a chance? Unfortunately there were only a couple of 4 player games on the Jag and they were not really pack in material.

Maybe if Atari Karts had a 4 player split screen mode like Mario Kart 64 had when it came out this all would have worked out in their favor.

But I guess this is just wishful thinking and fantasizing or to quote another member "FUME THINKING" lol

[+madman]

On a side note more to the topic maybe if Atari had included 4MB of system RAM and a free team tap pack in with every console plus a FUN 4 player game they could have stood a chance?

What about 4MB of RAM do you think would've made the system/games better?

[JagChris]

OP, is back, and jiminy jellickers, ive definately heard some answers that have givin me leverage, the machine was allegedly difficult to program on but had to be a lot easier than the saturn

This story came about because developers were having trouble really getting into the meat of the system.

 

 

So they ported/created a lot of 8 & 16 bittish games. General programming didn't seem to be much of a problem. Producing games for the system that looked like they were from the generation the Jag was actually from (Rayman, DOOM,GEX,World Tour racing etc)and not something that could be done on an Amiga/ST/SNES was what they were generally referring to.

[Tidus79001]

Wow looks like it turned into a flame war afterall

Sorry, I am not going to let someone get a free pass on calling me racist when there is noting I said that was racist. JagCD just got upset because I am not agreeing with his assessment of how the 8-bit era played out. I have no ill will towards JagCD but I will not let anyone call me a racist and twist my words for their own agenda.

[VladR]

This story came about because developers were having trouble really getting into the meat of the system.

So they ported/created a lot of 8 & 16 bittish games.

 

General programming didn't seem to be much of a problem.

Exactly. It would be great if it was possible for general non-coding public to distinguish between the 2 areas, but we're obviously asking too much:

1. 68000 - easy

- 100% stable,

- no bugs,

- no compiler issues,

- 68k assembler is an order of magnitude easier and comfortable to code in

 

2. RISCs - WTF

- very unstable during initial experimenting

- constant freezes,

- bugs,

- huge compiler issues

 

 

To be fair though, from my current understanding, during the launch of jag and unlike now, there was an Alpine board available to every developer, correct ? Meaning you could actually put a breakpoint and physically debug the GPU/DSP code - this would be a huge help in quick discovering and cataloging all the issues with RISCs and especially compiler.

[Punisher5.0]

Relax guys

[Tempest]

Relax guys

Seriously. Keep this up and the thread gets locked and I recommend to Al that we disband the Jaguar forum. You people want to be pissy children do it elsewhere.

[JagCD]

Exactly. It would be great if it was possible for general non-coding public to distinguish between the 2 areas, but we're obviously asking too much:

1. 68000 - easy

- 100% stable,

- no bugs,

- no compiler issues,

- 68k assembler is an order of magnitude easier and comfortable to code in

 

2. RISCs - WTF

- very unstable during initial experimenting

- constant freezes,

- bugs,

- huge compiler issues

 

 

To be fair though, from my current understanding, during the launch of jag and unlike now, there was an Alpine board available to every developer, correct ? Meaning you could actually put a breakpoint and physically debug the GPU/DSP code - this would be a huge help in quick discovering and cataloging all the issues with RISCs and especially compiler.

 

I think RISC was the hot new thing at the time. Someone, I think marketing oversold what RISC could actually do.

CISC / x86 did destroy RISC at least for game consoles -- Although mobile has done incredibly well with ARM/RISC designs.

[VladR]

I think RISC was the hot new thing at the time.

Incorrect. RISCs were a part of arcade boards for over a decade with plenty developers experienced coding them. Jag was really only a small form-factor of the proven arcade HW design.

 

 

 

Someone, I think marketing oversold what RISC could actually do.

Incorrect. The only thing that marketing oversold was Atari's ability to support developers properly - but Atari was in reality sunk at that time anyway. And most probably never intended to do full dev support anyway -even if they had resources.

 

And yes, "Do the math" shit was stupid, but it's not like its absence would save Atari anyway, but that's a whole different debate.

 

 

 

CISC / x86 did destroy RISC at least for game consoles -- Although mobile has done incredibly well with ARM/RISC designs.

How so ? What do you think are those thousands of shader cores in gfx cards today ? They're all RISCs.

 

The CISCs today are really only something like 68k in the jag - Indirectly telling those thousands of RISC cores to do the heavy lifting on physics/shading/AI...

[spacecadet]

 

Nintendo got their clock cleaned by Sega in Europe. So it really depends on where you actually lived. Nintendo never had a chance with 8 bit on that continent. Sega also kicked their ass in Brazil. So Sega "won" the 8 bit war in both South America and Europe. Just because it happened in the USA, doesn't mean it happened worldwide.

 

Luckily you guys don't have to argue about this, because Nintendo conveniently publishes their hardware sales by region from the NES onwards.

 

NES sales by region:

 

Japan: 19,359,000

The Americas: 34,000,000 (33,290,000 in the United States)

"Other": 8,560,000 (3,500,000 in Europe)

 

Sega didn't publish their sales so neatly, so these SMS numbers are from various magazines at the time:

 

Japan: 1,720,000

The Americas: 10,000,000 (8,000,000 of which were in Brazil)

"Other": 7,670,000 (6,950,000 in western Europe)

 

The SMS did do better in certain regions and individual countries, but the countries/regions in which it did better were a lot smaller, percentage-wise, than the countries and regions in which the NES did better. Japan's NES/Famicom sales alone beat both Brazil's and Europe's SMS sales put together. Comparing Japan's NES sales to either Europe's or Brazil's SMS sales individually, the amount is almost triple.

 

Japan at that time was a much larger market than Europe. Between the NES and SMS, Japan almost doubled Europe's total sales just on its own.

[phoenixdownita]

 

Luckily you guys don't have to argue about this, because Nintendo conveniently publishes their hardware sales by region from the NES onwards.

 

NES sales by region:

 

Japan: 19,359,000

The Americas: 34,000,000 (33,290,000 in the United States)

"Other": 8,560,000 (3,500,000 in Europe)

 

Sega didn't publish their sales so neatly, so these SMS numbers are from various magazines at the time:

 

Japan: 1,720,000

The Americas: 10,000,000 (8,000,000 of which were in Brazil)

"Other": 7,670,000 (6,950,000 in western Europe)

.....

... owwwww and now you ruined the whole speculation with FACTS ....

you and madman should really stop bringing those in because people seem to IGNORE them and actually put weird spins on them ....

now the "3 to 1 guy" would come and tell you that NES americas / 3 ~= SMS americas so it's a TIE ..... see what you did with your FACTS !?!!!!?!!!

[LianneJaguar64]

Bah, too early for me to realize I should've multiquoted.

 

At any rate...how do you get a few million? In 2000 new Jag consoles were still available at clearance pricing. Heck, there are still NIB consoles available today, albeit obviously not cheap. How do you figure Atari would've moved millions of them when there is still NOS of 23 year old consoles today of the estimated less than 250,000 made? Fume logic.

This is very much at a speculative perspective, going wayyy back through and essentially 'rectifying' many mistakes made by Atari, I.e. Putting a CD Drive on the console from the off etc... Otherwise the best would likely happen would be a better software library and maybe 500,000 consoles sold. Idk it is speculation, at the end of the day; you can't change facts ']