HARD released a new demo at SV2017 - "Reharden"

[Heaven/TQA]

Sandor... just listened over my iPhone headphones... great!

 

I wanted to leave A8 aside for a while but now I feel to enter the realm again .

[pirx]

Same with me, same with me bro!

Sandor, kudos, chapeau bas!!!

Watched ReHarden on big screen in Gdansk, it was amazing!

[Sandor / HARD]

I just now watched & listened to this on a real machine. The sound is so much better and it was just playing through the shitty speaker on my PVM. I am going down to my workbench to get an extension cable so I can listen to it through my stereo (which the video was playing through).

 

HARDBASS is more like a subwoofer than a general purpose synth. It'll only bring to the tune what Pokey doesn't. You'll need better speakers than the PVM ones to hear what it's made for. Average quality/cheap headphones will do, but cheap speakers won't in my experience.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Sandor / HARD

[Sandor / HARD]

Sandor... just listened over my iPhone headphones... great!

 

I wanted to leave A8 aside for a while but now I feel to enter the realm again .

 

And that's exactly why I felt I need to release!

To stimulate things so that I can sit back and watch a lot of great new productions

[Sandor / HARD]

Same with me, same with me bro!

Sandor, kudos, chapeau bas!!!

Watched ReHarden on big screen in Gdansk, it was amazing!

 

That's great to hear, thanks!

I only got as far in the (unofficial) live stream as the 1st 3 Atari 2600 entries (which were great!) then I had to leave for the whole night / no internet.

Can't wait to find some time with a good screen / nice sound to watch all the releases on all platforms.

[emkay]

The bass in the video is not the type I prefer, but the first 1-2 seconds have that modulated sound which I think is very cool and should be used a lot.

The interesting part of the basses is that they interfere the main volume when the generators have been used. the digitized bass can be added with less problems.

 

For a better impression of the modulation, have a listen at 11:00. Or at 20:36

[Bryan]

Awesome, and I think this is my first demo greeting!

[Tezz]

Good stuff and great to see a new production from you Téli.

[Sandor / HARD]

Awesome, and I think this is my first demo greeting!

 

Actually to give you some back story about my ordeals, I stopped coding after like 3 weeks of work in October 2016 (when I had the HCM and HARDBASS engines working already). I got so disappointed in the video quality on all my displays. Then I only picked it up again in around August/September 2017 when I finally realized I had to get Sony & JVC PVMs instead of trying to fix the computers Now that I have proper displays, I also see the difference UAV did to my 130 XE!

[Bryan]

Actually to give you some back story about my ordeals, I stopped coding after like 3 weeks of work in October 2016 (when I had the HCM and HARDBASS engines working already). I got so disappointed in the video quality on all my displays. Then I only picked it up again in around August/September 2017 when I finally realized I had to get Sony & JVC PVMs instead of trying to fix the computers Now that I have proper displays, I also see the difference UAV did to my 130 XE!

 

One thing I've noticed is that even though the stock Atari video often has problems, you also cannot always trust the TV to be any better. One of the reasons I tell customers that I might release a Rev E one day is because I might introduce features to tune the output for best compatibility with whatever they're using. LCDs seem to be the worst offenders because they're expecting most people to use the HDMI inputs exclusively. Some problems I've seen in newer sets are:

 

1. Poor chroma filtering. The Atari doesn't produce a very strong chroma signal which is why it doesn't show very bright saturated colors. So, the fact that some TVs let the dot pattern leak though is ridiculous. I've even seen dot leakage using an S-Video input which, of course, shouldn't have the chroma mixed in at all. Anyway, it's poor design and for most people who buy the TV it doesn't matter.

 

2. Inconsistent composite levels. I've seen LCD TV's that showed a very dark composite picture. This might be fixable in a service menu somewhere, but it still shows a lack of QC.

 

3. Overshoot. When you send sharp (fast changing) pixel edges into some TVs, they overshoot and ring and produce a bright or black spot at the edge of the transition. This means a better picture would be accomplished by softening the image a bit.

 

So the question becomes, do I make an upgrade that produces a perfect image on oscilloscopes and professional monitors, or do I create an upgrade that produces video a cheap mass-market TV won't choke on? When I get some time, I'm going to experiment with adding a few different modes. Right now I've just been too busy with my house and other work (plus, the current small form factor is going to make adding anything new a real challenge).

[Sandor / HARD]

 

One thing I've noticed is that even though the stock Atari video often has problems, you also cannot always trust the TV to be any better. One of the reasons I tell customers that I might release a Rev E one day is because I might introduce features to tune the output for best compatibility with whatever they're using. LCDs seem to be the worst offenders because they're expecting most people to use the HDMI inputs exclusively. Some problems I've seen in newer sets are:

 

1. Poor chroma filtering. The Atari doesn't produce a very strong chroma signal which is why it doesn't show very bright saturated colors. So, the fact that some TVs let the dot pattern leak though is ridiculous. I've even seen dot leakage using an S-Video input which, of course, shouldn't have the chroma mixed in at all. Anyway, it's poor design and for most people who buy the TV it doesn't matter.

 

2. Inconsistent composite levels. I've seen LCD TV's that showed a very dark composite picture. This might be fixable in a service menu somewhere, but it still shows a lack of QC.

 

3. Overshoot. When you send sharp (fast changing) pixel edges into some TVs, they overshoot and ring and produce a bright or black spot at the edge of the transition. This means a better picture would be accomplished by softening the image a bit.

 

So the question becomes, do I make an upgrade that produces a perfect image on oscilloscopes and professional monitors, or do I create an upgrade that produces video a cheap mass-market TV won't choke on? When I get some time, I'm going to experiment with adding a few different modes. Right now I've just been too busy with my house and other work (plus, the current small form factor is going to make adding anything new a real challenge).

 

Well, since I got that 130 XE and 1702 you know about, I got myself an XL via ebay and shipped over my old XL from my home country that I used to finish Joyride. (it worked after 22 years!)

I also got approx 10 different Sony & JVC monitors (and a Vista CCTV monitor).

All I can say is: 50% of these screens do that nasty shadowing effect against all computers (UAV or no UAV; Atari or Commodore, doesn't matter). That's appalling actually.

The other 50% of the screens do a great job, even against my old XL with no mods whatsoever. No shadowing, nothing. Just those sort of milder patterns issues that UAV resolves anyways.

So the screens are at a much bigger fault in this situation in my opinion than the computers. And it's not about the price or brand either. Some PVMs were really bad and that cheap Vista is actually decent. The best was the JVC 15" (I have a few of those now; you have a 13" JVC AFAIK - great monitors).

Edited December 11, 2017 by Sandor / HARD

[foft]

Loving the bass, had to run a wire across the room (in mid-air!) to connect my stereo to check it!

[Sandor / HARD]

Loving the bass, had to run a wire across the room (in mid-air!) to connect my stereo to check it!

 

Thank you for your effort

[+Nezgar]

3. Overshoot. When you send sharp (fast changing) pixel edges into some TVs, they overshoot and ring and produce a bright or black spot at the edge of the transition. This means a better picture would be accomplished by softening the image a bit.

 

Thats sure sounds like 'unsharp mask' - a photoshop effect I'm familiar with, commonly applied by the 'sharpness' setting of TV's. Good example images here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsharp_masking

[_The Doctor__]

Surprised with how quickly this came together, while it's been explained that much of it was just waiting for the time to do it. Excited and happy to see you found the time somehow, somewhere, some way to get to get it done. I enjoyed the shout out to the AtariAge forums and members

 

Your approach to sound and the Atari 8 bit has always been a major point of interest, you just can't beat a HARD demo as you will always find something interesting, a technical aspect that really makes the most enjoyable creations possible. We all love to see how it's done and watch as it is applied in other demos, musix, and games that we see following the release. Here's to the future! Thank you Sandor.

 

*Edit* you know what's playing through the Stereo right now Had to experience the full range with speakers huge drivers!

*Further edit* Our cat ran away... and now she's back eyes on the screen and ears trained towards the speakers purring away.

Edited December 11, 2017 by _The Doctor__

[Sandor / HARD]

Surprised with how quickly this came together, while it's been explained that much of it was just waiting for the time to do it. Excited and happy to see you found the time somehow, somewhere, some way to get to get it done. I enjoyed the shout out to the AtariAge forums and members

 

Your approach to sound and the Atari 8 bit has always been a major point of interest, you just can't beat a HARD demo as you will always find something interesting, a technical aspect that really makes the most enjoyable creations possible. We all love to see how it's done and watch as it is applied in other demos, musix, and games that we see following the release. Here's to the future! Thank you Sandor.

 

*Edit* you know what's playing through the Stereo right now Had to experience the full range with speakers huge drivers!

*Further edit* Our cat ran away... and now she's back eyes on the screen and ears trained towards the speakers purring away.

 

Haha, If the cat gets used to it, it's acceptable quality

[dmsc]

Hi!

 

One thing I've noticed is that even though the stock Atari video often has problems, you also cannot always trust the TV to be any better. One of the reasons I tell customers that I might release a Rev E one day is because I might introduce features to tune the output for best compatibility with whatever they're using. LCDs seem to be the worst offenders because they're expecting most people to use the HDMI inputs exclusively. Some problems I've seen in newer sets are:

 

1. Poor chroma filtering. The Atari doesn't produce a very strong chroma signal which is why it doesn't show very bright saturated colors. So, the fact that some TVs let the dot pattern leak though is ridiculous. I've even seen dot leakage using an S-Video input which, of course, shouldn't have the chroma mixed in at all. Anyway, it's poor design and for most people who buy the TV it doesn't matter.

 

2. Inconsistent composite levels. I've seen LCD TV's that showed a very dark composite picture. This might be fixable in a service menu somewhere, but it still shows a lack of QC.

 

3. Overshoot. When you send sharp (fast changing) pixel edges into some TVs, they overshoot and ring and produce a bright or black spot at the edge of the transition. This means a better picture would be accomplished by softening the image a bit.

 

So the question becomes, do I make an upgrade that produces a perfect image on oscilloscopes and professional monitors, or do I create an upgrade that produces video a cheap mass-market TV won't choke on? When I get some time, I'm going to experiment with adding a few different modes. Right now I've just been too busy with my house and other work (plus, the current small form factor is going to make adding anything new a real challenge).

I think that for better compatibility you could generate Y-Pb-Pr directly, by "measuring" the phase between OSC and COLOR pins on GTIA. This would eliminate the need for the TV to decode the color-burst and the chroma signal. I think many TVs have component inputs, and should be of better quality than the composite or S-Video inputs.

 

Now, how to easily measure the phase, perhaps a simple XOR between the OSC and COLOR for Pr (and a XOR between negated OSC and COLOR for Pb) could work.

[Bryan]

I think that for better compatibility you could generate Y-Pb-Pr directly, by "measuring" the phase between OSC and COLOR pins on GTIA. This would eliminate the need for the TV to decode the color-burst and the chroma signal. I think many TVs have component inputs, and should be of better quality than the composite or S-Video inputs.

 

Now, how to easily measure the phase, perhaps a simple XOR between the OSC and COLOR for Pr (and a XOR between negated OSC and COLOR for Pb) could work.

 

Well, I don't want to derail the topic but I'm working on a decoding device to provide very good Component (YPbPr) and RGB video which will eliminate those variables between sets. Not sure when it'll be ready but it should open up some new monitor choices.

[Fratzengeballer]

nice to get some new technical playground into the scene

I was a little upset when I first saw that there were not that many entries in the compo, but then it was nice in the end and a nice suprise to me.

Sounded pretty awesome on the soundsystem at SV

 

nice work and really fantastic to have the sources in such a perfect way!

 

thanks alot

[Sandor / HARD]

nice to get some new technical playground into the scene

I was a little upset when I first saw that there were not that many entries in the compo, but then it was nice in the end and a nice suprise to me.

Sounded pretty awesome on the soundsystem at SV

 

nice work and really fantastic to have the sources in such a perfect way!

 

thanks alot

 

Thank you! I just created a thread for the HCM & HARDBASS tools in the programmer section.

[_The Doctor__]

Now to fix it up for NTSC, while it does not crash on my NTSC 130XE, because of the timing differences, the bottom of the screen scanlines will need to be dropped... the timing difference will also glitch the sound while GTIA draws the screens. This will cause a delay and slow down things rather than speed them up as is usually the case because it's pushing things across the line.

 

Things will have to be re calculated to keep the frequency correct more than likely if conversion is to be faithful.

 

The wife enjoyed it, we already have the cat's vote, We'll see what the daughter has to say when she comes home for Christmas...

[Sandor / HARD]

Now to fix it up for NTSC, while it does not crash on my NTSC 130XE, because of the timing differences, the bottom of the screen scanlines will need to be dropped... the timing difference will also glitch the sound while GTIA draws the screens. This will cause a delay and slow down things rather than speed them up as is usually the case because it's pushing things across the line.

 

Things will have to be re calculated to keep the frequency correct more than likely if conversion is to be faithful.

 

The wife enjoyed it, we already have the cat's vote, We'll see what the daughter has to say when she comes home for Christmas...

 

Now I don't know much about NTSC, but it must be a nice family where everyone's willing to watch demos!

[_The Doctor__]

My daughter has a130XE she got from me and then she wanted a Jaguar for Christmas many years ago... Primal Rage, Bubsy, Jumpman, Canyon Climber, etc can be heard from her room a couple of times a year... not as much now that she's in college....

 

She's going to want this demo on her machine (NTSC) as she's a music person, used to play in the band, loves some rock w/ bass. Dabbled with a guitar a bit but found what she owned has a bent neck and was hard on he finger tips

 

I'll be sneaky and let it play without telling her when she come home and see how she reacts.

Edited December 12, 2017 by _The Doctor__

[_The Doctor__]

 

Now I don't know much about NTSC, but it must be a nice family where everyone's willing to watch demos!

They have enjoyed my old machines. Although there were times when they hated on them for consuming all my time

[_The Doctor__]

Check out the discussion about the workings of HCM here https://bitbucket.org/sandor-hard/and here http://atariage.com/forums/topic/273049-hcm-hardbass-tools/?p=3910086

 

and then you might head out to the demo zoo and support these achievements, just because you can

https://demozoo.org/productions/180957/

Edited December 14, 2017 by _The Doctor__