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Can the 5V line in the 7800 Controller...

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backwards

 

joystick is switched direct to ground, just like a 2600

 

the buttons are pulled down to ground via resistors so they can either register as a digital low for 2600 mode or an analog low on 5 and 9 paddle pins for 2 button support on the 78

 

Joystick contacts all go directly to pin8 ground (have 8 in common), may not have worded that right. All joystick contacts go directly to 8 for ground, both buttons go directly to 6 as common, Right?

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6 is a pulled up digital I/O

 

ok so to not add confusion, but totally adding confusion

 

the 7800 is bw compatible with the 26 right

 

so in the 2600 pin 6 is a digital input pulled up to 5 volts, if it goes low its a fire, when it goes low its just like the d pad as in its being forced low via a mechanical switch to ground

 

in the 7800 you have 2 buttons, so 6 is still a high digital input on the motherboard side, and in 2600 mode you press a button and its being pulled to ground though a resistor, but its digital, the resistor is a low value, there's jack squat current, and for all shits n giggles its digital low great!

 

in 7800 mode it ignores the state of pin 6, its high, its always going to be high, dont care otherwise and the two buttons get split off to the two 2600 paddle inputs

 

common does not mean its ground, it just means its common, it could be ground, it could be 5 volts, it could mean 480 volts, as long as its common to that part of the circuit

 

;)

 

course absolutely none of this has JACK SQUAT to do with the directions

Edited by Osgeld
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On the joystick, I assumed this was ok as it was in the diagram I used...I daisy chained the common starting from down to right to up to left (around the stick basically), then ran a wire from the common connection on LEFT to pin 8/black...

 

Now, I also joined my resistor lines coming off the buttons on the common contact for LEFT. So all commons are on 8/black, but they all meet FIRST on the LEFT directional switch, and run on one wire to 8/black from there. Is that somehow different from running wires from each common pin directly to 8/black, WITHOUT having the joystick daisy chained? It shouldn't matter, should it? I thought common was common and could be joined anywhere in any sequence.

 

Same deal with joining both the resistor lines on LEFT, then running to pin 8/black from there with one wire, which is what I did...that shouldn't matter should it? Should I run both of those to 8/black without joining them on the LEFT controller switch? I was being lazy as it saved some soldering to quick crimp them all on the LEFT switch and run the wire from there, but I thought that was totally ok to do.

 

So far as the common button wire, I wired by color since these were original 7800 sticks but yeah the orange common wire both buttons share goes to pin 6.

 

I'm using 620 ohm resistors. I've tested these primarily with Xevious as it is the easiest game to check for 8 way/2 button play. If I pull out my stick and use an Atari gamepad...it plays perfect. :_(

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On the joystick, I assumed this was ok as it was in the diagram I used...I daisy chained the common starting from down to right to up to left (around the stick basically), then ran a wire from the common connection on LEFT to pin 8/black...

 

Now, I also joined my resistor lines coming off the buttons on the common contact for LEFT. So all commons are on 8/black, but they all meet FIRST on the LEFT directional switch, and run on one wire to 8/black from there. Is that somehow different from running wires from each common pin directly to 8/black, WITHOUT having the joystick daisy chained? It shouldn't matter, should it? I thought common was common and could be joined anywhere in any sequence.

 

Same deal with joining both the resistor lines on LEFT, then running to pin 8/black from there with one wire, which is what I did...that shouldn't matter should it? Should I run both of those to 8/black without joining them on the LEFT controller switch? I was being lazy as it saved some soldering to quick crimp them all on the LEFT switch and run the wire from there, but I thought that was totally ok to do.

 

So far as the common button wire, I wired by color since these were original 7800 sticks but yeah the orange common wire both buttons share goes to pin 6.

 

I'm using 620 ohm resistors. I've tested these primarily with Xevious as it is the easiest game to check for 8 way/2 button play. If I pull out my stick and use an Atari gamepad...it plays perfect. :_(

 

Daisy chain is right. I thought there might be a slim chance you might have accidently ran the two lines from the buttons marked common directly (no resistor) to 8 somehow so they still worked but interfered with the stick. These are just some errors or questions I've ran across others making in old posts. Seemed to be running out of suggestions why the old stick works and the new ones don't.

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Swami, adding to my confusion, one of my old sticks work, and one is now jittery! Again maybe I just never noticed it. Anyway, I really appreciate the suggestions from you guys.

 

I've got a Seimitsu LS 32 on the way...when I get it I'm going to pop it into a bad controller and see what happens. I keep thinking I simply did something stupidly wrong wiring wise but damned if I can find ANYTHING.

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Swami, adding to my confusion, one of my old sticks work, and one is now jittery! Again maybe I just never noticed it. Anyway, I really appreciate the suggestions from you guys.

 

I've got a Seimitsu LS 32 on the way...when I get it I'm going to pop it into a bad controller and see what happens. I keep thinking I simply did something stupidly wrong wiring wise but damned if I can find ANYTHING.

See if the joystick does the same thing on another 7800 or on the 2600 with a game like defender to rule out the console, as someone mentioned.

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See if the joystick does the same thing on another 7800 or on the 2600 with a game like defender to rule out the console, as someone mentioned.

Hmm...that's interesting now that i think about it because the 7800 I am using now is one I bought from Jin fairly recently, and it is AV modded. I haven't actually use it THAT much and 99% of my playtime on it has been Joust (it's my fav game)...which has no diagonals.

 

I'll drag out my RF 7800 unit and check it tonight. Can check it on my 2600 Vader too but that will also need to be dragged out of storage.

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I would think Berzerk would be a good game to test diagonals with? Also this could be a stupid question, but I've always figured that if I was going to make a large controller like this using arcade parts I would gladly sacrifice one of my CX24 PCBs to use. That way I just wire everything to the PCB in the same place where the original domes were...etc? That would remove all guesswork if I were to make something like this.

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I would think Berzerk would be a good game to test diagonals with? Also this could be a stupid question, but I've always figured that if I was going to make a large controller like this using arcade parts I would gladly sacrifice one of my CX24 PCBs to use. That way I just wire everything to the PCB in the same place where the original domes were...etc? That would remove all guesswork if I were to make something like this.

I don't 2600 much but I do believe I have Berzerk.

 

I've not wired to a PCB before, and the diagram for the 7800 is so simple it actually seemed easier just to wire it up straight (I was unclear how to de-mask the PCB and solder to it right)....I think the only thing using the PCB would do is allow you to do is skip the resistor part..but then you are using 20+ year old resistors instead of new ones. That might eliminate guesswork or it could generate paranoia because I'm not sure I'd trust them.

 

Assuming the controller works fine to start both are valid...maybe I just didn't test well enough. When i test, if a Pro Line is jerky but I get 8 directions and two button fire...I blame any jerkiness ON those dome switches that can fail. i bought these all in one ebay batch. Maybe they have flaky cords or something. I dont' think that is actually it but i am...lost.

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Resistors don't typically 'go bad' due to age. I can't think of a single instance where I've had to replace a resistor that hadn't sustained a physical impact in a low voltage, very low current application like the 7800 joystick.

 

What kills resistors is breakdown due to generated(current dissipation) or environmental heat(far exceeding room temperatures,) or mechanical stress due to board flexing or direct impacts to the resistor itself.

 

The resistors in a 7800 joystick are simply not being stressed in any meaningful way during normal use of the joystick.

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And that is why I would likely just use a cx24 pcb for something like this. I would attach the ground wire to the ground pin on the pcb where the wires solder, and then on the controls and buttons, I would just scratch up the unmasked parts on the PCB where the domes did make contact and solder the wires directly to those points or along those traces somewhere. Sure it could be wired up directly but I would be lazy on something like this and prefer to not have to think about it and just attach the wires where I knew they needed to go.

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Well that is kind of what is driving me crazy Crossbow....the wiring diagram isn't a complex one at all, but I still can't figure out what is going wrong. If I can't wire this, I probably shouldn't be wiring anything! Troubleshooting this thing just shouldn't be as hard as I have apparently made it. :(

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I recommend Paul's Testcart for anyone messing with controllers.

EDIT: just ordered one. I have a DB9 joystick tester and it says all primaries (right/left/up/Down) are ok. But it my stick doesn't do diagonals (light up the up AND left lights) nicely.

 

(Crap I just realized that means it is not my system then, which was a longshot anyway, but damn, I was hoping)

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you are

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

 

wait, that's not helpful

 

since you wired everything with spade lugs have you tried disconnecting the direction wires and just touched them to ground, if you unhook R and down and touch them to ground does it go diagonal (2600 combat is a great test cart for this)

 

if that is no problem then you have eliminated one variable

 

glory of electronics, its the simplest crap that always causes you grief, so start simple and work from there ... a multi-meter would help, if you have a harbor freight near buy keep a look on their site, they often give one away that is perfectly acceptable for home and hobby use for free with a purchase ... and its horrible fright, you can ALWAYS find some tool you want or need for just about nothing

Ha I deserve it. You should SEE me downstairs (having a drink or three) trying to figure this out. Raging.

 

Hmmm. that eliminates the switches as an issue if that still doesn't work right? I can do that with my joystick tester.

 

I've got a multimeter but I can't get the continuity setting to do...anything. I was trying to suss out a Genesis cable last night to get a new cord....didn't seem to register anything.

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OK so I went home and using my joystick tester I get this when touching the up and left wires to a ground. It happens immediately and solidly (no light flicker etc as long as I am making good contact)

 

Lu2xjLR.jpg

 

I have no idea why that Fire 2 light is on, but it turns on the minute I plug the controller in. When I bought the tester, it was sold as a 2600 tester (on ebay it is sold as "9 pin Joystick tester Amiga atari Sega C64 Spectrum") So I never understood what that fire 2 light was for anyway. When I hit my 7800 buttons using it, both buttons light up fire 1. Both buttons do work correctly in my games, only the stick is acting off. Is that light indicative of an open circuit or something? (crap i should have plugged my stock 7800 gamepad into it to see how it read, didn't think to do that.) My games do not automatically start from the title screen as if a button was being held down.

 

When I use the tester with the direct contact method on my other controllers in the same directions that makes the stick act up (each has a different directional bugaboo), they immediately light up as they should. When I use the stick on the controller using the tester....I can BARELY get diagonals to register, and only in one TINY exact spot. It's like the stick just isn't activating both switches as it should.

 

(and just for the hell of it I did try it on my stock 7800...controllers still don't work right)

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Have you tried manually activating the affected switches, not using the stick/actuator?

Just took all the plates off the bottom and tried that. Switches work fine and also work fine (on my tester anyway) doing diagonals (two switches at once).

 

The actuator and levers just don't seem to be set up in a reliable way for diagonals. For left/down on this one I have like a micron spot where the stick will trigger both switches, that's it. I tried bending the levers to adjust a bit but it just doesn't seem to matter. They all seem to have a dead spot in the corners somewhere, thought the levers make nice uniform contact with the actuator at dead rest. This seemed the LEAST likely of ALL possibilities to me so my apologies for looking at everything else first. Maybe it's just...a shit stick!!!!!

 

(I also plugged several stock 7800 controllers into the tester, and they all light up the button 2 light, so i think that tester was just never intneded for 7800 gear, and that is not an indicator of a fault)

 

My seimitsu can't come fast enough so I can confirm this!!!

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Where did you bend the levers? If you bend them at the pivot point, it will have no effect on when the switch activates, although if you bend it far enough it may keep the switch from activating.

 

If you bend them just after the lever has passed the button, you should be reducing the 'dead zone' for the stick and increasing the response on the diagonals. If you bend only the end of the lever, it should only affect the diagonals. It sometimes requires more bend than you might think to actually see a difference in the corners.

 

On the other hand, since removing the restrictor didn't do much, your stick may simply have too little throw, and/or your actuator may have been molded slightly too small(or large depending on the shape of the restrictor.)

 

I'd be very surprised if the new stick doesn't work better.

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This was probably a red-flag, but also the most expensive to fix having to replace all of them with quality sticks, so maybe it was worth the time you spent checking some possible alternative error sources before investing in several seimitsu, sanwa or suzo happ joysticks, although I would have probably started with one of these.

I am using generic arcade sticks from China

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Where did you bend the levers? If you bend them at the pivot point, it will have no effect on when the switch activates, although if you bend it far enough it may keep the switch from activating.

 

If you bend them just after the lever has passed the button, you should be reducing the 'dead zone' for the stick and increasing the response on the diagonals. If you bend only the end of the lever, it should only affect the diagonals. It sometimes requires more bend than you might think to actually see a difference in the corners.

 

On the other hand, since removing the restrictor didn't do much, your stick may simply have too little throw, and/or your actuator may have been molded slightly too small(or large depending on the shape of the restrictor.)

 

I'd be very surprised if the new stick doesn't work better.

 

Tried this, but it was without any great affect. I'm holding out hope for the new stick!

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This was probably a red-flag, but also the most expensive to fix having to replace all of them with quality sticks, so maybe it was worth the time you spent checking some possible alternative error sources before investing in several seimitsu, sanwa or suzo happ joysticks, although I would have probably started with one of these.

 

You're right and I know it. I've been buying zippyys for a couple years, and never had any be bad from day one, until this batch of three. However seeing as one of my older sticks is seemingly deteriorating as time goes on (it was my main stick and got the most use), it may simply be that I've been getting lucky for a while now, and luck done run out!

 

If I drop the Seimitsu in and it works I'll be relieved but also a little sad as the zippyys being so inexpensive (seriously the seimitsu cost me more than my project box, generic buttons, zippyy stick AND donor controller combined) made it easy to for me to build whatever popped into my head and then sell it for breakeven at worst. Those days are clearly over. If it's the stick, I have to replace the zippyys in 7 different controllers I have on my shelf. Oi!

 

I'll update when I get the new stick. In the mean time, guys, I really appreciate all the help (and the patience shown me) from everyone. I've learned a little, and have a test cart on the way to me that seems very useful.

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After all that, it was totally the crappy stick. Popped the Seimitsu in there and Xevious suddenty controls like perfection.

 

Hate that i have to pay more but at least my wiring ability is vindicated! :-D

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Good. I enjoy my cheap 'Mr Joystick' sanwa jlf clone based sticks, and my Seimitsu based stick built by Wyluli Wolf. The clone sticks do show their cheapness, in as far as they require quite a bit more tweaking to get a flawless result.

 

In general however, I appreciate how modular most these arcade parts are. It's easy(and cheap, depending on your requirements) to swap out switches for greater reliability, more or less clicky action, or stiffer verses softer response.

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