New Coleco RGB board?

[Falonn]

Just a quick note: the v2 boards arrived, they work great, the holes are plenty big enough, I built a few and sent them over to Ruggers Customs, he's got them now and will hopefully have wider testing results soon.  In the meantime I've got all the video shot & edited for board assembly and am sitting down to do the same for mod installation.

 

With any luck a nice, easily-installed RGB solution is imminent.

[MrPix]

And on my end, I'm just waiting for that confirmation before ordering the PCBs. I have ordered the components and they've started dribbling in from all over the world. I have three packages stuck in Arizona since the 11th that are components for this. 

Fun times!

[ChildOfCv]

6 hours ago, MrPix said:

And on my end, I'm just waiting for that confirmation before ordering the PCBs. I have ordered the components and they've started dribbling in from all over the world. I have three packages stuck in Arizona since the 11th that are components for this. 

Fun times!

Hope they don't go up in flames ?

[MrPix]

You and me both. I have three separate shipments that might be in the back of the same truck, based on the tracking. 

[SearsRoebuck]

Is the s-video/composite side part being ordered in that batch as well? Sorry if I missed something, the discussion got so technical for me in the last few pages I had trouble following it. 

[MrPix]

No. 

I have an existing very refined design, but it isn't suited to the Adam or CV. I'm redesigning it to protect signal quality as it is so electrically noisy inside the Adam case. The S-Video/composite board will be along about 4-6 weeks after the TMS-RGB. 

Also, the SVC board has to be assembled as a NTSC or PAL version and can't switch between them easily, and I'd like to fix that.

[HDTV1080P]

A HDMI board for the ColecoVision and ADAM would be my ultimate choice. While I can use RGB and component video along with S-Video. Those TV’s and monitors with those features are around 15-20+ years old. A good quality HDMI board would greatly expand the capabilities of the ColecoVision/ADAM. One could remove the RF modulator on the ColecoVision/ADAM to make room for HDMI. Then one could use a mini HDMI jack in place of the RCA jack where the RF modulator goes so that no drilling in the original ColecoVision/ADAM plastic case would be needed.

Edited June 23, 2020 by HDTV1080P

[emmanuelf]

And so you will need to do scaling and be down in the rabbit hole.... a never ending story and definitively not an "ultimate choice". "Good quality HDMI board" with these darn specific old analog sources is a complete subjective concept. The cost will be disruptive too...

If you want hdmi, look at the F18A-MK2 and DVI output, but you will not have the right pixel aspect ratio.

Or go to the full FPGA emulation route.

Good analog->hdmi  conversion for these very low resolution sources involve digital conversion and scaling. It is a very complex problem which need it own complete and cost reusable/sharable solution.

In my opinion, the only good solution is/will be OSSC Pro. But it is only my opinion.

 

 

[MrPix]

8 hours ago, HDTV1080P said:

A HDMI board for the ColecoVision and ADAM would be my ultimate choice. While I can use RGB and component video along with S-Video. Those TV’s and monitors with those features are around 15-20+ years old. A good quality HDMI board would greatly expand the capabilities of the ColecoVision/ADAM. One could remove the RF modulator on the ColecoVision/ADAM to make room for HDMI. Then one could use a mini HDMI jack in place of the RCA jack where the RF modulator goes so that no drilling in the original ColecoVision/ADAM plastic case would be needed.

I think Matthew180 has this option covered in the coming months. At a price point to match.

[Retro_Game_Lover96]

Look at that picture, that RGB mod board has an extra pot, so I wonder where it goes?

 

[SearsRoebuck]

Personally, I feel like the 'ultimate' solution would actually be newly manufactured CRT tvs/monitors, catering to the retro market, with perhaps some more modern features.  There are drawbacks, mentioned by the reply, in taking an analog system and running it through a digital output, and I feel like the downsides aren't worth it.  At the same time, I totally sympathize with not wanting to have giant hulking 100 pound monitors or TV sets. I use small CRTs with my set up (13 and 14 inchers so they can fit on a desk) and those suckers are still 25-35 pounds. 

 

But this is a much larger philosophical question, probably way outside the scope of this thread. 

[MrPix]

I had a small setback today. A batch of ICs I have been waiting nearly two months for arrived, and they were not of good quality. They are new, genuine parts but they have been exposed to moisture for a long time and some oxidation has occurred. I am re-ordering. I have already been refunded.
 

Hopefully the new order will arrive much more quickly.

[HDTV1080P]

13 hours ago, SearsRoebuck said:

Personally, I feel like the 'ultimate' solution would actually be newly manufactured CRT tvs/monitors, catering to the retro market, with perhaps some more modern features.  There are drawbacks, mentioned by the reply, in taking an analog system and running it through a digital output, and I feel like the downsides aren't worth it.  At the same time, I totally sympathize with not wanting to have giant hulking 100 pound monitors or TV sets. I use small CRTs with my set up (13 and 14 inchers so they can fit on a desk) and those suckers are still 25-35 pounds. 

 

But this is a much larger philosophical question, probably way outside the scope of this thread. 

Today the best way to play videogames is with a DLP projector or a OLED flat panel that has absolute black levels like a CRT. Over a decade ago CRT TV/monitors went out of production. One of the reasons was consumers preferred the bigger size flat panels with less weight. I have also read that due to some environmental laws that CRT displays are not allowed to be manufactured anymore. If this is true then this would explain why CRT displays completely disappeared from the market if its against the law to manufacturer a CRT display. It has been well documented that one of the main reasons why Plasma flat panels are no longer made is because of environmental laws stating how much power consumption a flat panel screen is allowed to use. No one makes plasma flat panels anymore and they were replaced by OLED flat panels that suppose to use a little less power consumption.  

Edited June 25, 2020 by HDTV1080P

[MrPix]

CRTs work by firing electrons at low level radiation energies, and using lead glass to block the radiation from reaching you.

No thanks.

I think the new generation of OLED monitors that will occupy the market for the next generation will fit the bill nicely.

[emmanuelf]

2 hours ago, MrPix said:

CRTs work by firing electrons at low level radiation energies, and using lead glass to block the radiation from reaching you.

This is inaccurate.

Lead glass would glow greenish. Starting at 15kv there is very soft low level radiation produced by the beam, but there are completely unable to pass trough the thickness of the front face (non leaded) glass and are mostly converted to visible light.

Very very old not completely coated tube could produce bad radiation, on the back. Like very old high performance scope tube. Even in this case it is irrelevant as they are generally enclosed in a mu-metal cage.

Some very specific old vacuum valves produce high level of dangerous radiation, but this is not the topic.

Anyway, I'm offtopic too ?

Nothing will completely replace old CRT like nothing is able to really replace the ungridded vector CRT of the vectrex. But I agree, next gen OLED will help to fade the ugly rendering of old analog systems (and actual one) on modern panel, if properly scaled.

 

[SearsRoebuck]

For me to completely switch to something like an OLED, they'd have to find a solution for light guns. I've seen a few different attempts at solving this, but not enough people care about these games in general and I think beyond Duck Hunt interest hasn't been all that great.  I am especially a big fan of the light gun games released for the Master System, but there probably isnt enough SMS fans to even bother trying. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by SearsRoebuck

[Ikrananka]

33 minutes ago, SearsRoebuck said:

For me to completely switch to something like an OLED, they'd have to find a solution for light guns. I've seen a few different attempts at solving this, but not enough people care about these games in general and I think beyond Duck Hunt interest hasn't been all that great.  I am especially a big fan of the light gun games released for the Master System, but there probably isnt enough SMS fans to even bother trying. 

I think you might be interested in this:

 

https://www.sindenlightgun.com/

[SearsRoebuck]

Looks interesting, I do see a Sega CD gun game in the stack of games tested, so that bodes well for the SMS.  Really hope this thing could work for ALL light gun games, and I include the even more obscure ones like the 7800 titles. 

[Ikrananka]

7 minutes ago, SearsRoebuck said:

Looks interesting, I do see a Sega CD gun game in the stack of games tested, so that bodes well for the SMS.  Really hope this thing could work for ALL light gun games, and I include the even more obscure ones like the 7800 titles. 

The developer is a great guy and wants to expand this to as many systems as possible.  So, you never know.

[Falonn]

1 hour ago, SearsRoebuck said:

For me to completely switch to something [...], they'd have to find a solution for light guns.

I've daydreamed about a hobby display project involving those tileable LED panels.  They're designed for big, unbroken full-wall displays but if you only need 240p, it would only take a few panels and end up around a normal TV size (and not be too crazy expensive).  I've never seen one in person, so I'm not sure if you'd need to add a diffuser layer to get a convincing picture at living room distances.  But, if driven the right way it should be competitive with CRT's speed and latency.  All light guns would work on it natively.

 

It hasn't left the daydream stage, so I don't know any of the details: whether you can drive them without PWM, whether the addressing can be set up to do vsync-like line-by-line scanning, etc.  Still, it's seems like a neat idea since those panels are ubiquitous and cheap now.

[ChildOfCv]

8 hours ago, Falonn said:

I've daydreamed about a hobby display project involving those tileable LED panels.  They're designed for big, unbroken full-wall displays but if you only need 240p, it would only take a few panels and end up around a normal TV size (and not be too crazy expensive).  I've never seen one in person, so I'm not sure if you'd need to add a diffuser layer to get a convincing picture at living room distances.  But, if driven the right way it should be competitive with CRT's speed and latency.  All light guns would work on it natively.

 

It hasn't left the daydream stage, so I don't know any of the details: whether you can drive them without PWM, whether the addressing can be set up to do vsync-like line-by-line scanning, etc.  Still, it's seems like a neat idea since those panels are ubiquitous and cheap now.

Same here.  I've thought it would be nice to be able to disassemble an LED screen enough to have access to its individual rows and columns, then replace the specialized ICs that do the fast scanning with ones made to follow the CRT scan.  For at least some of the LEDs that I've seen disassembled, the ICs are cylindrical so that they can be rolled into the flex cables that they're attached to.  If those ICs could somehow be replaced with ones that are friendlier to SD scan, you'd be about 90% there.

[MrPix]

10 hours ago, emmanuelf said:

This is inaccurate.

Lead glass would glow greenish. Starting at 15kv there is very soft low level radiation produced by the beam, but there are completely unable to pass trough the thickness of the front face (non leaded) glass and are mostly converted to visible light.

https://computer.howstuffworks.com/question678.htm
 

Not that I’d know, but I did the ISO 9000 certification for a CRT reprocessing plant. 

[emmanuelf]

https://spie.org/samples/TT54.pdf

[MrPix]

Given the day and age, it would be quite reasonable to have a Pi Zero and camera in the gun, and take a CCD snapshot of the image, recognize the state of gameplay and the co-ordinates of the crosshairs within the screen, and create virtual co-ords.

If someone wants to do the software side of this, I would happily do the hardware side for them, including design of the enclosure.

But that's a separate thread or private convo.

 

[zanaxe]

I think that is pretty much what the sinden gun is doing.  Except its using a white (or whatever color you configure) border surrounding the game image to determine x y coordinates.