Todd Rogers banned from Twin Galaxies and records removed

[+x=usr(1536)]

nt due to hamfistedness

Edited October 20, 2020 by x=usr(1536)
hamfistedness

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, Tickled_Pink said:

I'm afraid that I had to check this as I always thought that the burden of proof lay with the plaintiff (in this case, Rogers) as he's the one accusing TG of libel. It usually surprises Americans when I point out that in the UK, the burden of proof is on the defendant.

 

And you are absolutely correct.  Somehow, I've managed to make a total mess of this despite my attempts to clarify what it was I was saying in the first place

 

FWIW, I do live in the US but am Irish and have also lived in the UK, so really don't have an excuse for mangling this as badly as I did.  Having said that, it does not hurt in the least to point out the differences, because they really are quite significant.

 

1 hour ago, Tickled_Pink said:

People argue about freedom of speech, but you don't have a right to get someone lynched by accusing them of being a paedophile with no evidence.

 

Agreed.  However, freedom of speech does not protect one from the consequences of one's speech.  The point you're making is certainly valid, but courts are there to determine - based on the evidence - whether or not the claim is true; it certainly won't help the reputation of the accused until a determination is made.  With that being said, however, this is also where the lack of protection from the consequences of one's speech comes into effect: if the allegation is wrongly made against someone that they are a paedophile and they come to harm, the person making those allegations can be held responsible.

 

1 hour ago, Tickled_Pink said:

But, I've gone off tangent here a little. My original comment was going to suggest that Rogers sue Guinness World Records in the UK. They couldn't do it with TG because, AFAIK, TG has no physical presence in the UK. I wasn't aware that the law has changed both in the US and UK to prevent libel tourism, so that's no longer a possibility for him.

 

WRT Rogers suing Guinness, I can't see that going anywhere for the simple reason that they're just republishing scores given to them by TG.  Guinness is essentially accepting TG's scores as valid since TG is acting as subject matter experts, so any lawsuit against Guinness would probably end up being deflected back to TG anyway.

 

@Tickled_Pink: just curious - are / were you practicing law?

[Tickled_Pink]

9 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

FWIW, I do live in the US but am Irish and have also lived in the UK

I'm typing this out from my daughter's house in Holyhead. Used to take the ferry from here to Dun Laoghaire before the EU put a stop to duty free. Bastards.

 

9 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

WRT Rogers suing Guinness, I can't see that going anywhere for the simple reason that they're just republishing scores given to them by TG.  Guinness is essentially accepting TG's scores as valid since TG is acting as subject matter experts, so any lawsuit against Guinness would probably end up being deflected back to TG anyway.

In the UK, it's no defence to say that you're only repeating what someone else has said, and that's where he might have had some joy because Guinness are effectively repeating the claims made by TG by removing his scores. I have no idea what the legal position is in the US and this does seem to have several nuances to it that I honestly couldn't give a definitive answer to. Case law might cover this issue but it seems to be quite a unique situation.

 

10 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

just curious - are / were you practicing law?

No. I completed a law degree in 2006. Although I have been looking into joining the bar recently. I'm 51, so even with a couple of years' training, I could still have a 20 year career. Software development just isn't working for me.

[negative1]

Major update on the court case:

 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/10/billy-mitchells-donkey-kong-high-score-case-will-move-forward-to-trial/

 

 

A Los Angeles County judge has ruled that Billy Mitchell has met the "minimal merit" standard necessary to move forward to trial in his defamation case against the high-score adjudicators at the Twin Galaxies organization. But the ruling doesn't specifically weigh in on the conflicting evidence presented so far, and it suggests that both sides have some chance of prevailing at trial.

 

 

later

-1

Edited October 28, 2020 by negative1

[Goochman]

Heres a pretty good writeup on where things stand:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/ersatzcats/wall/8700/what-the-recent-billy-mitchell-lawsuit-rulings-mean-and-what-they-dont-mean 

 

Everyone should get a good laugh at Billy's FB post on the subject

[Cynicaster]

On 10/16/2020 at 9:36 AM, Supergun said:

So, to negate all of his high scores and ban him “for life”, when he can tie or beat most world records live, and in person, in front of witnesses, is what I would call denial and actually unfair to HIM! There simply has to be an understanding that any high score, properly and legitimately achieved, by any individual, is accepted. PERIOD. Regardless of wether you like them or not and regardless of possible past discretions. Otherwise, whomever does currently hold the accepted record and calls themselves “champion” is not only incorrect, but in complete denial.

 

I don't feel particularly strongly on this either way, because sure, in an ideal world a legit achievement would remain a legit achievement, regardless of any cheating/dishonesty that may have taken place in a completely separate situation.  

 

But the problem is, it's not an ideal world, and the distinction of legit vs. fake does not just fall down from on high - it requires a churn on the system to discern which is which.  

 

If you have already demonstrated a pattern of suspicious behavior - including what amounts to smoking-gun proof of fakery - then it doesn't seem fair to place the onus on "the system" to devote the resources needed to check and re-check everything you're doing to separate out which of your achievements are real and which ones are fake.  You are given an initial level of trust, but if you squander it, you sideline yourself.  Think of it as a deterrent.  

 

[Supergun]

1 hour ago, Cynicaster said:

 

I don't feel particularly strongly on this either way, because sure, in an ideal world a legit achievement would remain a legit achievement, regardless of any cheating/dishonesty that may have taken place in a completely separate situation.  

 

But the problem is, it's not an ideal world, and the distinction of legit vs. fake does not just fall down from on high - it requires a churn on the system to discern which is which.  

 

If you have already demonstrated a pattern of suspicious behavior - including what amounts to smoking-gun proof of fakery - then it doesn't seem fair to place the onus on "the system" to devote the resources needed to check and re-check everything you're doing to separate out which of your achievements are real and which ones are fake.  You are given an initial level of trust, but if you squander it, you sideline yourself.  Think of it as a deterrent.  

 

Oh, I completely agree with what your saying here, with regards to “burdening the system”, where judges have to sit there and watch several hours of recorded footage of some marathon high score attempt by someone who may or may not have cheated in the past.

 

Yes, in those cases, they burned their bridge and aren’t worth the time.

 

I was referring to something like a 6 second game of Dragster. I mean, it takes 6 seconds. In those 6 seconds, you either tie the world record, or you don’t. Period.

[Goochman]

Things are getting even more interesting now

 

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2795.0 

 

[glazball]

Way to go, Jace Hall.  Billy, the lying sack of shit that he is, deserves nothing less.

[TrekMD]

The plot thickens!

[Shannon]

Quote

In the conclusion, the request for special damages totals $3,333,360 (equal to a currently-recognized perfect score on Pac-Man), and the request for special damages totals $31,160,200 (equal to the total of Billy's three fraudulent Donkey Kong submissions).

How ironic and totally classic!

Edited November 7, 2020 by Shannon

[negative1]

2 hours ago, Shannon said:

How ironic and totally classic!

it's not 31 million, its 3.1 million

 

later

-1

[Hydro Thunder]

I want to root for Walter Day, but as time goes on, I just can't anymore.

Even as a fellow Iowan. 

There's just so much there that I can't keep disbelieving everything or blaming it all on Billy.  Walter just had to be serving his own interests to the point of behaving falsely, it's the only thing that makes a lick of sense.  You can't deny that many people's scores / remove them while always backing up Billy's scores no matter what format they arrive in...without it looking this bad.

 

For all his Trancendental meditation...he could not overcome his greed and desire for celebrity status.