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Osxster

Troubleshooting sio2pc Serial (Mac but could apply elsewhere)

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Hello,

 

I have a question regarding where to begin to troubleshoot sio2pc. I have a Mac, downloaded the RespeQt v4 and v3 software, I have an FTDI and a PL2303 USB Serial device (I bought an FTDI one in case it was my PL2303 which was incompatible). Then I purchased the Atarimax Serial two connector SIO board. The lights work on the Atari SIO board when I power up my 130XE. However when loading the RespeQt software on my Mac, configuring it to use the correct serial device /dev/cu.usbserial-FTXPW79C or /dev/tty.usbserial-FTXPW79C, selecting an ATR image for D1:, I never get anything on my 130XE other than that farting / seeking sound then it goes into self test. It never boots any images I select. There are no logs that indicate anything other than Emulation is started. For the heck of it I just loaded SIO2OSX (although it looks like it is not supported anymore so I'd try the 5 minute trial), I get the same thing there. I also tried this on another MacBook and get the same issue. The Serial ports appear to work fine as I can hook it up to my old HST Dual Standard modems and get the AT commands back. Also when I plug in my modem and start RespeQt, I can see the TR and RS lights turn on my modem when I start up the software and open up the serial port. It appears ReqpeQt is opening up my serial port and that it appears to be configured properly.

 

I would like to know what steps can be done to troubleshoot this. Do I have a bad Atarimax board? With a terminal program on the mac running, should I see anything come back from the Atari Max adapter when I start up my Atari when tries to boot to confirm the Atari Max board is working? I have my RespeQt software running at 19200 baud with No Flow control enabled (in case flow control was messing things up). Again I get nothing from the logs, not sure what I should see as I never used this type of software before. Any help would be appreciated.

 

Osxster

 

 

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Have you downloaded the appropriate drivers for the serial-USB chips? I have an FTDI-based device that worked great for years on my MacBook Pro. I have heard of very mixed results for people using the Promise-based chips.

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I had installed drivers for the Promised based serial port to get it to work as a serial port. It was working with other serial software such as SyncTerm, but I could not get it to work with ResqeQt. So I had purchased an FTDI based serial port to see if that is my problem as other people said the same thing as you about the PL based serial ports. I am running High Sierra which apparently has built in support for FTDI without having to install any drivers. Out of the box, my Mac sees the FTDI adapter and I can communicate to a US Robotics Courier HST modem fine using SyncTerm. Looking in /dev you can see the port registered:

 

$ ls -l /dev/*ser*

crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 21, 7 Feb 2 11:02 /dev/cu.usbserial-FTXPW79C
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 21, 6 Feb 2 10:03 /dev/tty.usbserial-FTXPW79C
I just cannot get the Atari to boot off of this and I don't know where to troubleshoot this as I think my problem is with the sio2pc board. My Atari boots fine from my Happy 1050's, so my SIO cables and Atari is good. The serial cable is good as it works to a modem using SyncTerm.
Osxster

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Pictures of your setup would help. How are your two USB-serial devices wired up to SIO cables?

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DrVenkman,

 

I do not have anything wired up to SIO cables, I purchased https://www.atarimax.com/sio2pc/documentation/jack/index.php?imgid=13. This is an AtariMax SIO to Serial adapter with two SIO connectors on it. This is attached by Serial cable to a UT232R-200 FTDI USB to Serial adapter. I tried the PL adapter first, but that wasn't working either with this AtariMax adapter. The USB Serial devices do work as they work to modems via SyncTerm on my Mac.

 

TheMontezuma,

 

I tried loading their FTDI drivers first by mistake, but they don't seem to work. None of the drivers on that site loaded my FTDI device in /dev. Then I read the ftdichip.com documentation more and learned that High Sierra has built in support for FTDI. When I disabled their drivers and went back to the default drivers, I was now able to see my usb serial in /dev. Tried this adapter on two MacBook Pro's and neither work with the AtariMax adapter but both work with SyncTerm going to a modem.

 

Osxster

Edited by Osxster

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This may be a silly question, but if you were going to buy an SIO device from Atarimax, why not just buy an SIO2PC device with a built-in USB port and be done with it? You'd have saved yourself the need to buy a separate USB-serial interface? I'm betting that Steve's device there requires using APE software running on a PC with a serial interface.

 

That's an idea, by the way - download the trial version of APE and see if it can "talk" through the dual-SIO widget. You should be able to do this with CrossOver/WINE, dual-booting with Parallels or a VirtualBox Windows installation. A few years ago when I used a Mac full-time, I did this to image a bunch of floppy disks from my real 1050 drives. Sorry to say, Steve's devices are known for required APE software to run.

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No, Steve's device works with Respeqt v4X because that is what I am using it's and RS232 interface just like a Nick Kennedy. Try this 2 different ways,

make sure a valid .atr is in the D1 slot of RespeQt

respeqt-options-

COM#-DSR-57600 (Virtual COM port number) or

USB##-DSR-57600 (USB device number OR usb device name depending on your machine)

nothing else ticked #is whatever the port is suppose to be com2 etc usb001 or usb1 or usb abc

try again both scenarios with flow set to NONE

 

if you talk to your courier via rs232 make sure flow control is working properly and that it is on in the serial set up as well as in the modem...

you can set respeqt up and observe the indicators on the usr to see if respeqt is using the correct serial port.

by selecting arduino mode and turning dtr on and off.... the usr should also turn the dtr light on and off..

DTR is used to change to pro mode on the device and you can try with it on and off on the serial devices real config all other signal should work as intended

 

I will try with no handshaking... in a bit..

also if your usb to rs232 device hold dtr high and you can't disable it (device always asserts) disconnect that wire in the real rs 232 cable if it's always low you my need to pull it high (I forget which it is at the moment) but that is pin 4 on the db9 end. There are a decent number of rs232 sio2pc build it yourself sites to cover rs232 cable wiring both 25 pin and 9 pin. It can be confusing but I'm trying to cover all the bases.

 

This is almost always a COM port selected, incorrect handshake choice, or cabling issue.

The sio 2 pc rs232 is just that a standard serial port device.

Edited by _The Doctor__
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DrVenkman,

 

Thats not a silly question, as a matter of fact I asked Steve if I could buy the USB version instead for use on my Mac and he said I needed to go with the Serial version. I was assuming the USB versions of the SIO devices either didn't have a FTDI chipset or were missing something which would have allowed RespQt to work. I also did some searching and couldn't find other people who were using USB versions of the SIO2PC devices on Mac's, and all the docs on Steve's site said to go with serial on a mac, so I went with serial. I had the PL serial port anyway before I bought it, figured this would be a good way to go. I ended up buying the FTDI when I couldn't get RespQt to work. There is no APE for the Mac that I am aware of, but I downloaded the trial of Sio2OSX which supports APE. While it looks like this is unsupported shareware that you can't get a license for anymore and only has a 5 minute trial, it still does not work.

 

Doctor,

 

I get DTR and RTS on my Couriers when I plug them into the FTDI serial when I open the serial port. I am assuming this is wired properly and supports all of the normal hardware flow control. The lights are off on the Courier until I start up my terminal program or when I start up ResqQt. It appears that RespQt is opening the COM port because DTR and RTS turn on once I enable emulation in RespQt. I have no idea how to test out if RTS/CTS flow control is actually working properly anymore though as I don't have land lines. I would need to transfer a file with Zmodem and fill up the buffer of my Couriers to trigger the flow control or pull apart a serial cable to trigger the flow control. I use to make my own null modems back in the day to move files back and forth between computers since null modem connectors usually only crossed the data pins and not the flow control pins.

 

I'm not sure what you mean on those RespQT options though. I only have drop downs and I am using a Mac and have no COM# ports. For whatever reason though, I can set my port higher than 19200, but at the bottom of the screen it always defaults to 19200 no matter what speed I set in options. I am also using No Flow Control to at least see if it tries to boot. I get why you need flow control, but it isn't even trying to boot. Enabling hardware flow control didn't work anyway..

 

I guess my original question remains though, how do I troubleshoot this to see if this sio 2 pc is even working? It has chips on it, so it is doing more than just passing data pins to my serial adapter. I would have expected (and maybe someone can test this for me), if I have a terminal program opened, running at 19200, have the sio 2 pc plugged in, and when I power on my Atari that I'd get some type of data on my terminal program screen coming back from the Atari to tell the disk drive to start booting. There should be a hand shake between the Atari and the disk drive. Wouldn't I see something in a terminal program when I do this? You'd think I would see Atari's equivalent of a TCP SYN packet coming through the serial port to start the handshake. I see nothing on my screen, perhaps it has to do with parity and settings in the terminal, but I'd think I would have seen something.

 

Osxster

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if you are using v3 of RespeQT it will not work, you must be using Respeqt v 4 X make sure it's v4X.

 

the drop down and check boxes change depending on what you select in the flow control drop down, the DTR check box will only appear in none or sio2bt modes. Once you select none or sio2bt, you can toggle the dtr box and the courrier should either light dtr and keep it lit or it should stay off depending on the dtr ticked of in respeqt

is your rs232 cable the one that came with the sio2pc?

is your usb to 232 a 9 pin or 25 pin connector?

If your using an adapter to go from 25 pin to 9 pin make sure it's a full signal adapter and Not a converter of some kind. some of these join signals we don't want that.

 

you've told me DTR is high and as I've mentioned that may be asserting PRO drive control mode making it as if there were 2 computers connected instead of emulating a drive. The lights will be on but no one will answer the door... if repeqt is making the courrier rd sd twinkle and flow control can also be made to twinkle but your dtr can't be controlled you will have to make changes to you wiring or find a driver combination that will.

 

the courier has mr, tr(DTR), rs (rts) and cs (cts) indicator lights on it as well, you should be able to see if they are on off or changing as well. MR TR(DTR)

the modem can assert DTR on it's own and hold it high on it's own. Setting up the modem to allow DTR control and hang up is not the same function as in the sio2pc interface. But you can still use it to test your rs232 port provided it's set up to use the signals, either in the dip switch set up or NVRAM profile of the modem.

 

others have also successfully connected their macs using the combination of the usb to rs232 converter and sio2pc interfaces, I ask that they share their respective set ups, and devices used. one of their methods should work here. also note which versions were used at the time. Maybe we can first get him up with some older version and set up and then work on getting him all the way.

Edited by _The Doctor__

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I am using RespeQt-v4. I do not see a v4X on Github. DTR and RTS are working properly as stopping and starting RespeQt turns those lights off and on together on my Courier as the RS232 port is opened and closed. Switching the flow control settings doesn't really toggle the lights though, I find when I go into Settings the DTR and RTS lines are shut off as the RS232 port is closed and turn back on after exiting settings. This goes along with Emulation being stopped and started. I do not see a way to toggle DTR and RTS separately with RespeQT though.

 

No cable came with my AtariMax adapter. I am using a 9 pin cable. I was using a cat 5 cable with DB9's on it, I tried a regular 9 pin RS232 shielded cable and that doesn't make a difference. I measured the pins with a volt meter and they are all there. RI is missing from the Cat 5 cable, but nothing normally uses that other than this software as an available option for flow control.

 

I just went one step further and installed VirtualBox on my Mac with a Windows XP ISO I had. I was able to get XP to work with the FTDI adapter and it works communicating to my Courier Dual Standard. AT commands and all that work properly. However I still have the exact same problem using RespeQt. It shows up as COM3 and none of the flow control options help get my Atari to boot. I tried multiple ATR files that I assume are good, but I get nothing other than that seeking / farting sound as if there were no disk drive plugged into my Atari.

 

It would be really helpful if someone could fire up a terminal program on their computer connected to an SIO RS232 adapter to see if the Atari sends any garbage characters to the terminal as if it was trying to sync with a disk drive. That would be helpful to know, but I can't come up with any other conclusions other than that this AtariMax SIO2PC RS232 adapter is bad. Are there any other ideas to try?

 

Osxster

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I've seen exactly 1 bad Atarimax rs232 sio adapter in my lifetime... and that was killed by a bad power supply.

If running a virtual xp download the APE demo, it's free at Atarimax... https://www.atarimax.com/ scroll down to ape 3.0.2 trial see what happens.

for your xp virtual machine... RespeQt-r4X.zip

 

There were reports of success doing these in a virtual machine until they figured out what was going on in their Apple, and finally nail it down.

Edited by _The Doctor__

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I guess things just get weirder as I play with this more. I loaded the APE 3.0.2 trial on my Windows XP VM. As I expected, I still can't get the Atari to boot from APE. The diagnostics utility in APE sees the adaptor on my COM3 port, I select an image for D1, power off and power on my Atari and it just makes that seeking noise and goes into Self Test or Basic. I assume I am using the software correctly as I see no other options to enable the software. it always says:

 

[serial Driver] Unable to determine port bas address for COM3. Check APE configuration!

[serial Driver] Serial port COM3 opened successfully. APE is ready.

 

I assume there is nothing else to do other than go to "1" for D1: then to select a disk image, power off and power on the Atari (which turns off and on the AtariMax device).

 

But what is weird about this whole thing, if I launch Prosystem, I can see my Happy 1050 and make disk images off of it. It beeps the computer as its reading the disk. I made an ATR successfully of SpartaDOS but I still can't boot it.

 

I also tried for the heck of it to boot SpartaDOS up from my Happy and set a disk image on D2: from APE, which I was unsuccessful at reading from SpartaDOS. I could not see D2: image from SpartaDOS.

 

Now to answer the obvious question before it is asked, yes there were no drives connected to my AtariMax adapter when I was testing. It was connected directly to the Atari when doing my original tests with no other peripherals. Both ports on the AtariMax didn't make a difference. With my SpartaDOS test, I have a Happy 1050 on as D1:, its plugged into the AtariMax adapter which is then plugged into the computer. This AtariMax adapter has two SIO connectors on it so you can chain it like any other Atari device.

 

This AtariMax SIO RS232 device HAS two chips on it. Am I using the chips when I use the Prosystem software, but when I try to boot from APE, it goes directly over the SIO serial connection (and that could be bad)? Could both of these be using different paths on the AtariMax adapter and that is why I can't read images from the Atari but I can see my Happy from my computer? I'm really at a loss here. This seems like easy stuff here.

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Yeah, this really shouldn't be that hard. Do you have access to a spare or ruined SIO cable? For instance, a cable stub from a dead 410 or 1010 program recorder? You could try wiring your FTDI board or Promise board to the SIO cable directly just to confirm that there's no issue with those devices.

 

Sorry to say, I *really* think Steve's dual-SIO widget in between isn't working quite as expected. The fact that you can image floppy disks using ProSystem indicates it's working at least partly. But removing it from the equation would confirm or refute the notion that it's part of the problem as well.

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I do not THINK I have any ruined 410s, but there should be one at my parents house in unknown condition.. All of this stuff was at my parents house sitting for 30 years. The 410 was awesome as it saved me a lot of time typing in games in Atari basic from magazines!

 

In any event I have a couple extra SIO cables with me, I could pull one apart. I guess the reason I bought this adapter was so I wouldnt have to do this or any soldering. I figured this would save me time.. Since you are knowledgeable in this subject, what are the advantages of these adapters over making your own serial SIO cable? I figured the chips on them did some type of buffering to improve perfmanace, maybe to achieve Happy Warp speed or faster performance. But other than the USB Sio2pc connectors which may have an embedded serial port (FTDI or promise for example), are there other advantages to these? Or is it just Steves AtariMax RS232 board includes stuff for APE (thats what those chips are for), where as a normal USB sio2pc adapter is just a FTDI or Promise serial port with wires going directly to the SIO connector and no other logic in them?

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Chances are your 410 is non-functional these days. The rubber belts tend, almost uniformly, to deteriorate and lose tension over the years. I have four of them, plus a 1010, and they're all in need of new belts. Eventually I'll fix one of them for the sake of nostalgia, but I keep the rest to either trade away someday or salvage their SIO "tails."

 

Making your own SIO-to-USB device with a disassembled cable tail shouldn't be too hard, though I've never done it. FTID-based boards from Sparkfun or somewhere else are cheap and can support POKEY divisor 0 speeds (125kps compared to standard SIO speeds of 19.2kps, or Happy Warp speed of 52kps.). If you do a search there are instructions on the forum in posts by others over the years as to which signals on the board go to which signals on the SIO cable.

 

Anyway, good luck in figuring it all out.

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Yeah, this really shouldn't be that hard. Do you have access to a spare or ruined SIO cable? For instance, a cable stub from a dead 410 or 1010 program recorder? You could try wiring your FTDI board or Promise board to the SIO cable directly just to confirm that there's no issue with those devices.

 

Sorry to say, I *really* think Steve's dual-SIO widget in between isn't working quite as expected. The fact that you can image floppy disks using ProSystem indicates it's working at least partly. But removing it from the equation would confirm or refute the notion that it's part of the problem as well.

Good news is it works, bad news you still don't have it nailed down.

 

Now that tells me it's working, and that dtr isn't being controlled properly.... since it's always in pro mode... did you use the software I posted?

did you follow the steps I outlined with the usr or a serial analyzer or dmm? The dtr line by all I can gather from all of the posts is not being switched and as such you are in PRO mode. You are feeding as a computer. Once DTR is handled correctly you will slave as a drive also..

 

I doubt that after having been working for so many people for so darn long could it suddenly be that steve's device is not working as expected or designed... This is the fault of either a comm port driver, usb to com device tying signal together, or wiring doing the same.

Edited by _The Doctor__

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I doubt that after having been working for so many people for so darn long could it suddenly be that steve's device is not working as expected or designed... This is the fault of either a comm port driver, usb to com device tying signal together, or wiring doing the same.

 

Look, I don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone, and please note I'm a happy customer of several of Steve's other products and intend to buy more in the future. But the fact is SIO2PC-USB devices aren't that complicated and don't need a separate complicated device plugged in between an SIO port and the totally separate FTDI board plugged into the computer. I'm guessing if the OP had a legacy system with a traditional DB9 RS-232C port, this device would work fine. But it may NOT (and obviously right now IS not) working with a separate USB-to-serial device in between.

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I do not THINK I have any ruined 410s, but there should be one at my parents house in unknown condition.. All of this stuff was at my parents house sitting for 30 years. The 410 was awesome as it saved me a lot of time typing in games in Atari basic from magazines!

 

In any event I have a couple extra SIO cables with me, I could pull one apart. I guess the reason I bought this adapter was so I wouldnt have to do this or any soldering. I figured this would save me time.. Since you are knowledgeable in this subject, what are the advantages of these adapters over making your own serial SIO cable? I figured the chips on them did some type of buffering to improve perfmanace, maybe to achieve Happy Warp speed or faster performance. But other than the USB Sio2pc connectors which may have an embedded serial port (FTDI or promise for example), are there other advantages to these? Or is it just Steves AtariMax RS232 board includes stuff for APE (thats what those chips are for), where as a normal USB sio2pc adapter is just a FTDI or Promise serial port with wires going directly to the SIO connector and no other logic in them?

The device is a standard device, nothing is coded to ape.... the DTR line swaps the mode, that's it. The flow control lines do flow control..... This is not a locked down device like others have produced!

 

Make sure DTR is handled properly... if it isn't, disconnect the DTR line. or get the driver or usb to rs232 device that works as it should!

If you're using 4X that I posted it handles DTR correctly on the software level, your usbrs232 device, or it's driver or rs232 cord not so much, I have thoroughly tested it. It works on every machine I've tried it on, including a mac..... So unless you've somehow only managed to fry half a sio2pc. please try the suggestions outlined and your golden. You're almost there. The goal line is 1 foot away. Leap the pile.... Touchdown!

 

There's no reason you couldn't do a direct generic ftdi to sio device(sio2pc, you just won't get pro mode(sioTo1050) and make real disk directly, you'll have to fix the DTR line on that as well to get that sioTo050 function or wire it up with a physical switch on the line to do so...

Edited by _The Doctor__

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The one thing that a straight USB device will do is faster non standard rates... the sio2pc usb version from AtariMax is not going to be plug and play like the rs232 version was for me on a MAC though(it has been reported as being done, but I wasn't going to work that hard).... That's were a partial hack like the generics shine. but again you have to add a hand controlled switch to those to get other functionality.

Edited by _The Doctor__

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Hello,

 

I had stepped away from this thread for a little bit, I also didn't have a way to try any of the suggestions. I didn't want to pull apart my only good shielded RS232 to do any experiments, so I had purchased break out DB9 RS232 connectors which I can manually wire. I pulled DTR out and I still see no changes or any attempts of booting. I verified that DTR is being pulled by looking at the lights on my Courier Dual Standards. As far as your download links, APE demo I tried and I posted the results above, the RespeQt 4X you posted is a windows version, so that isn't going to help me. I'm using RespeQt V4 (without an X), I don't have any options to manually play with the DTR pin from it, but I am assuming by what you are saying, manually pulling DTR should be enough to get it to start booting, but it doesn't help my situation.

 

From talking to Steve, he doesn't feel that the RS232 version of his adaptor will work with a USB RS232 port and that it only works with UART's. He feels that there could be timing issues using a USB RS232 port. I guess I don't understand how a lot of people have gotten SIO interfaces to work on a Mac (heck someone wrote RespeQt for the Mac, so it has to work) without using a VM, but I am getting no such luck with multiple RS232 adaptors on multiple Macs. I even get no luck with a Windows VM. I assumed this adaptor just passed the pins through if you weren't using the APE logic in it.

 

It still seems to me that this adaptor is the problem, if anyone has any additional thoughts, please let me know.

 

Osxster

Edited by Osxster

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did you limit the speed of the converter to something the rs232 version of sio2pc could handle? when watching the breakout board what activity did you see?

lastly, what other versions of RespeQt did you try? the versions that had changed things for arduino didn't work again until 4X or later. So go early or late on respeqt.

short of trying a different usb to rs232 adapter and different driver with virtual com ports, out of Ideas what else to try.

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I am using 19200 baud. It actually doesn't allow me to change it. Anytime I up it, it goes back down to 19200. I didn't buy a breakout board with lights as they are all 25pin, but I bought DB9 connectors which you can manually wire. They call it a break out connector, but it's just a DB9 connector which you don't have to solider. I had a DB25 breakout and light board somewhere in my past which I used to use to make Null Modems, but I don't know where it is at my parents house. I guess my problem is how much more stuff do I need to buy to figure out why this isn't working when it could be a bad board.

 

As for RespeQt, I tried v4 and v3. I never tried any other version. However APE for Windows through a VirtualBox XP VM on my Mac and the SIOOSX trial which has no support (at least you can't register it) doesn't work either. I guess I can try the Windows Version of RespeQt 4X that you posted, but I doubt that will work any different unless you feel there are some troubleshooting options to it which are available. I wish there were troubleshooting options available, a log, or anything available in the version I have.

 

As it looks like i may need to spend more money, does anyone have a recommendation on an SIO2PC combination (any interface that works for that matter) which works on a Mac? I see that people have gotten these to work with Raspberry PI boxes in another thread on here, I'd be curious what devices people are buying and where they are getting them from. i didn't want to invade that other thread, but what I have here is not working and I seem to be out of options.

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Any FTDI-based serial-to-USB adapter that is properly wired up should work fine with a Mac, Linux or Windows box. I have two such devices, one wired into an SIO connector body and another built into my newly-constructed 1088XEL computer (a Sparkfun FTDI breakout board).

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Progress... In a last ditch effort, I installed The Doctor's RespeQt 4X for Windows on a VirtualBox VM running Windows XP. Without my modification cable with DTR Cut, just using a straight DB9, it booted right up. One thing I noticed though when I plugged in my Courier Dual Standard, DTR and RTS were both OFF. So it seems that the Mac version of RespeQt is turning DTR and RTS ON, whereas RespeQt 4X for Windows does not. Not sure if that is breaking anything, I suppose I can try removing RTS from my breakout cable to see if it makes a difference when trying to run it directly off the Mac.

 

Osxster

Edited by Osxster

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