fujidude Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 One thing to keep in mind about the reliability issues of the C-64 is that we're talking a production run that's many multiples higher than any other computer model of its time. So that's certainly a contributing factor to there being a perception of more defects. I suspect that its defect rate is only marginally higher than some of the better contemporary systems like the ones from Apple and Atari, but because there are so many more of them that might give the perception of less reliability. That is not certain at all. The only thing certain about it is that it is your opinion. In my opinion, if you know 10 people with Ataris and one of them had a failure, and you know 20 people with CBM and 6 of them had failures, you're going to correctly think in terms of 1 of my Atari acquaintances had a problem and 9 didn't, 6 of my CBM acquaintances had problems and 14 did not. Not that people will actually count them out, but the acquaintances with good luck will be in the consciousness too. But that's my opinion, and perhaps it's biased because I tend to think very analytically. If, for the sake of argument, we were to assume that typically people's thoughts have a larger emotional component than than do mine, I think it could be just as valid to make assumptions that the much higher level of popularity of CBM computers leads to a bias which tends to over-look shortcomings rather than over state them. The reason I say that is because people seem to tend to want to feel good about the purchase choices they make, and like validation from others on them. My idea is that people will then tend to have better proportionally better recall and memory of positive cases than of negative ones. Anyway, I would assume that that CBM and Atari kept stats on defect rates like most manufacturers do. I want to say that these numbers have been cited publicly before and that indeed; pre Tramiel Atari had a far better rate, but I cannot remember for sure. But anyway, that would be a better insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) From documentary evidence featuring the man himself, Tramiel was mega concerned with product at the cheapest build price, that said I never had a C64, Vic20 or Atari ever die on me... Head forward to the launch of the Xbox (Original) and shops including ours had the new pods with Xboxes dying all over the place from a flawed cooling design. Admittedly their first console but a terrible cock up none the less....Move forward again to the next version and we got the RROD travesty.. Wherever you look through computer / console history there has always been issues....Wobbly Rampacks anyone.. I just don't think issues should define a product unless it was a monumental failure.. Edited February 15, 2018 by Mclaneinc 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) page 7 is it a record yet? riding the line HARD hook it up to a nice stereo and enjoy the ride. Edited February 15, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 page 7 is it a record yet? Nope. The longest C64 vs Atari thread reached page 464 before it was locked, and is the one of the longest threads on the entire AA forum, if not the longest (sort forum by "Most Replies"). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) of course POKEY can emulate SID no problem... bass sounds better than SID actually Edited February 15, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Nope. The longest C64 vs Atari thread reached page 464 before it was locked, and is the one of the longest threads on the entire AA forum, if not the longest (sort forum by "Most Replies"). awe, I'm tired already, it's a long way to go... SID emulate POKEY... not so much.. Even giving it every advantage and the grace of playing it's favored tune type and musician for the emulation. (I went out of my way to make it more than fair, as all others failed spectacularly, this is the best it could do so far ) clarity? bass? growl? nope not there. skipto 1:32 or so after your done with getting idea from first song. Edited February 15, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) POKEY using older SID player for the fun of it.. Very SID Edited February 15, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Anecdotally, and that might be just a statistical distribution fluke (behind the iron curtain), as a kid, I met with over 150-200 people in a local Atari club (over the years). But I never ever [in all schools prior to university] heard of or met anyone [willing to admit] they had a Commodore. For the longest time, we were all under impression that the Commodore myth was just a bad joke and not real. Amigas ? STs ? Sinclairs ? Sam coupe ? Sure. It wasn't until many years later, when reading new gaming magazines, that I found out that thing was actually real (though - of course (!) - still debatable whether a joke or not ) While on a technical level, as a programmer, I can now summon some respect for the C64 (from the colors/sprite perspective), on a personal level - C64 will forever remain a bad joke for me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 While on a technical level, as a programmer, I can now summon some respect for the C64 (from the colors/sprite perspective), on a personal level - C64 will forever remain a bad joke for me Indeed, joke or not, it's hard to disparage a system too much that can play host to new games like Galencia and Sam's Journey. It clearly did something right. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetick1 Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Anecdotally, and that might be just a statistical distribution fluke (behind the iron curtain), as a kid, I met with over 150-200 people in a local Atari club (over the years). But I never ever [in all schools prior to university] heard of or met anyone [willing to admit] they had a Commodore. For the longest time, we were all under impression that the Commodore myth was just a bad joke and not real. Amigas ? STs ? Sinclairs ? Sam coupe ? Sure. It wasn't until many years later, when reading new gaming magazines, that I found out that thing was actually real (though - of course (!) - still debatable whether a joke or not ) While on a technical level, as a programmer, I can now summon some respect for the C64 (from the colors/sprite perspective), on a personal level - C64 will forever remain a bad joke for me Certainly not all but many 8-bit Atari and Atari ST fans are avid Commodore 8-bit and Amiga haters for no other reason then Commodore 8-bit and Amiga were always the more common machines with much more software especially in the US. When you are the underdog you always hate the champ. I'm a bit hesitant to use this term but it sums up the situation ...buthurt. That's enough of that as I'm sure I'll get all kinds of angry 8-bit Atari fan ranting on me. I'm ready for the onslaught. I'm playing Altered Beast on my Lynx to get in the mood. Later Edited February 15, 2018 by thetick1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 of course POKEY can emulate SID no problem... I'm not sure I'd say Pokey can emulate SID. The CPU is doing most of the work. So, the A8 can emulate SID. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Erm... POKEY CAN emulate SID. It just doesn't sound muffled... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetick1 Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Indeed, joke or not, it's hard to disparage a system too much that can play host to new games like Galencia and Sam's Journey. It clearly did something right. It captured the imagination of a generation of gamers, engineers and scientist. Oh and also given the release date of 1984 Impossible Mission on the C64 was the best game ever made well in my opinion! It seriously changed my life interest from building legos to interest in programming and computer hardware. Edited February 15, 2018 by thetick1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Erm... POKEY CAN emulate SID. It just doesn't sound muffled... Emulate is a strong word. It basically implies something can be used in place of another thing. Pokey can't emulate SID. Pokey can make some of the same sounds as SID. SID can make some of the same sounds as Pokey. Playing a sawtooth is not emulation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Emulate is a strong word. It basically implies something can be used in place of another thing. Pokey can't emulate SID. Pokey can make some of the same sounds as SID. SID can make some of the same sounds as Pokey. Playing a sawtooth is not emulation. Yes, but there isn't the CPU doing "most" of the work.... Most of CPU would do something like this.... imagine the high sounds as used in the video above. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Also, if a sound chip made years before SID can play a sawtooth, then isn't SID emulating Pokey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccorm Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Yes, but can your simple Atari systems with their dumb storage devices make music inside of their hard drive by aggressively vibrating the track mechanism? (Do people still do this?) Edited February 15, 2018 by jmccorm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Also, if a sound chip made years before SID can play a sawtooth, then isn't SID emulating Pokey? We know, it is no coincidence. SID has been build upon "existing" Soundchips. Most musically corrections on POKEY will point to SID sound, that is for real POKEY sound. But other optimizations sound fully different. Which is the superiority of POKEY.... the seemingly endless variations 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) The Amiga is an excellent machine. The one thing Commodore did correctly was to snatch that Atari machine up and sell it as their own Designed by all the same guys with Atari, might we add using a fair chunk of Atari money and Trammy-eel gives it away to his old company.... Edited February 15, 2018 by _The Doctor__ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 The Amiga is and excellent machine. The one thing Commodore did correctly was to snatch that Atari machine up and sell it as their own Designed by all the same guys with Atari, might we add using a fair chunk of Atari money and Trammy-eel gives it away to his old company.... Having a look back then, I'd bet, if the "Amiga" had been "to sell" at Atari, they won't have sold one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Having a look back then, I'd bet, if the "Amiga" had been "to sell" at Atari, they won't have sold one. Yes I bet it would have been a horrible computer Edited February 15, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccorm Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Yes I bet it would have been a horrible computer Both companies had the wrong pieces. Atari had Jack Tramiel. Commodore had the Amiga. Commodore produced the Amiga 1000 at a price that gave the Atari ST an early advantage. Jack would have produced an Amiga 500 out of the gate. Well, then again, we don't know. He might have produced a lesser hypothetical Amigo 250 for the masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 From documentary evidence featuring the man himself, Tramiel was mega concerned with product at the cheapest build price, that said I never had a C64, Vic20 or Atari ever die on me... i can't remember having a Commodore 8-bit die on me... i've killed a few machines - being nosey and carelessly trying to remove the shielding on the VIC-II without powering down beforehand for example but that wasn't anything to do with build quality. 800XLs on the other hand, the first one i got for Christmas developed a red screen of death in under a week so went back to Dixons (the salesdroid swapped it out no questions asked, saying there'd been a lot of returns with similar faults) and the replacement ran for a few years before developing a RAM fault. And no, that wasn't down to me and a screwdriver for a change, it just conked out. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) That may be, but the central electronic repair center was chock full of c64's. Cooked chips, cooked power supplies. Very rare to see an Apple or Atari on the sheets. Atari made a number of power supplies, word got out quick which one not to have. You could trade you ingot in at most users groups for a nominal sum. Edited February 16, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 That may be, but the central electronic repair center was chock full of c64's. Cooked chips, cooked power supplies. Very rare to see an Apple or Atari on the sheets. Atari made a number of power supplies, word got out quick which one not to have. You could trade you ingot in at most users groups for a nominal sum. I don't remember the ingot being a problem back in the user group days. I thought it became an issue much later. Everything I heard about bad C64's was that in the early days many were bad from the box, so the issues got sorted before people started using them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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