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Steve Mynott

C64 - A reappraisal 2017

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Anyone can buy and bring home business machines. They just aren't guaranteed not to cause interference, and they cannot be designed to connect to the TV. I'm sure that people who bought the aftermarket modulator for the Apple had noisy picture issues.

 

That's why I used a TV antenna amplifier. And I used it exactly for that reason, to overpower the bleed and harmonics and cross-talk caused by WFLD TV Ch.32.

 

Apple II -> Modulator -> Speaker Wire -> Antenna Amplifier -> Speaker Wire -> Switch Box -> TV.

Edited by Keatah

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All about you again, I was in the topic before you were but you can't help yourself. You just wandered into a number of threads. When you arrive after a person they are stalking you? Are you also the type of person whom arrives at a place and starts a ruckus then calls the police asking them to do something about the bad person who dwells there? Maybe you think as you drive down the road the person in front of you is tailgating you? I think I get, they are in your way, and it's your road! They need to go.

 

It looks like no matter what I type you are going to have a problem with it and be a jerk, such is your nature. It's shameful but it shows who you are. I don't know what your problem is, but you do appear to have an agenda and it appears you have it bad for me. That's sad. Continue being a jerk, It is apparent your comfortable that way. But please don't feel so important with yourself as to think (your) following in after others some how puts you in front. It's a cart before the horse thing.

 

You appear to be wandering into a number of threads, many of which I am already participating... but I'm sure you will feel I am stalking you there as well. Bizarre.

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All about you again, I was in the topic before you were but you can't help yourself. You just wandered into a number of threads. When you arrive after a person they are stalking you? Are you also the type of person whom arrives at a place and starts a ruckus then calls the police asking them to do something about the bad person who dwells there? Maybe you think as you drive down the road the person in front of you is tailgating you? I think I get, they are in your way, and it's your road! They need to go.

 

It looks like no matter what I type you are going to have a problem with it and be a jerk, such is your nature. It's shameful but it shows who you are. I don't know what your problem is, but you do appear to have an agenda and it appears you have it bad for me. That's sad. Continue being a jerk, It is apparent your comfortable that way. But please don't feel so important with yourself as to think (your) following in after others some how puts you in front. It's a cart before the horse thing.

 

You appear to be wandering into a number of threads, many of which I am already participating... but I'm sure you will feel I am stalking you there as well. Bizarre.

 

OK, olive branch time to end these tiresome and unnecessary back and forths that derail otherwise interesting discussion threads. I'll happily forget all that you said about me previously. Reset, clean slate, back to zero, etc. Since you clearly despise me and what I do and write, you can avoid responding to me in the future. I'll do the same in return. Deal?

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Guys?

May I ask you to have a look at the picture appended?

Two "opponents" in perfect harmony...

No fighting, not even stress. Just harmony.

Can we P l e a s e go back to topic?

It would make my day much better ;-)

 

Stefan

post-38469-0-41022300-1518816927_thumb.jpg

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Two "opponents" in perfect harmony...

No fighting, not even stress. Just harmony.

 

Hey.. why's that Commodore monitor up so much higher?!?!?!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :P

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Agreed.

 

Guys?
May I ask you to have a look at the picture appended?
Two "opponents" in perfect harmony...
No fighting, not even stress. Just harmony.
Can we P l e a s e go back to topic?
It would make my day much better ;-)

Stefan

 

Right there with ya. This pointless drama gets.. old.

 

Thats a sweet setup, btw. Nice little retro-corner. I have my 8-bits set up next to mymodern gaming pc. Best of both worlds

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Hey.. why's that Commodore monitor up so much higher?!?!?!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :P

 

Uhh... I'm sorry about that :-D .

 

It is because of the sloping roof... I'd like to use CRT for it too -

but, the Atari has the bigger screen size ;-) an the TV

fits on the narrow worktop.

 

Stefan

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^^ Same here. :) I've got my C64c and 5200 on the same Tv, and even (gasp!) share controllers between my C64 and 2600.

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OK, olive branch time to end these tiresome and unnecessary back and forths that derail otherwise interesting discussion threads. I'll happily forget all that you said about me previously. Reset, clean slate, back to zero, etc. Since you clearly despise me and what I do and write, you can avoid responding to me in the future. I'll do the same in return. Deal?

 

 

IP.Boards have an 'ignore' option for a reason

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Hey.. why's that Commodore monitor up so much higher?!?!?!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :P

 

All the draws have Commodore logos on them too.. .I smell bias!!

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I've come to the opinion that all of the 8bit consumer computers were flawed in one way or another. It would be a funny book to read - one that covers the mistakes and flaws of each computer.

 

And I have the title ready, Your Computer Sucks. Or the more friendly title, Your Computer Sucks But Don't Feel Bad, They All Do.

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Guys?

May I ask you to have a look at the picture appended?

Two "opponents" in perfect harmony...

No fighting, not even stress. Just harmony.

Can we P l e a s e go back to topic?

It would make my day much better ;-)

 

Stefan

Beautiful dog in your avatar! I've had a shit week. Reminds me - I need to play fetch with my dog. Always a pick-me-up.

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The main difference between C64 and Atari is that things, from that one might think "why the heck didn't they do that? " , got done late, but lately :) on the C64, while on the Atari the development is partially stalled. Most "new" software is still a silly try to let the Atari do, what the C64 has build in by silicon.

 

Those statements. like "SID is the best Soundchip" , do their part. If Rob Hubbard said so, it must have been true. But, if one keeps in mind that Rob Hubbard is a "local SID Hero" , things eventually turn their shape ;)

Also, the C64 offered an easy way to earn money. Handling sprites, is possible with Basic , and SID offers a programming interface that was easy to understand for musicians.

But, a computer always was more than graphics and sound.

It's still that "ego view" games on the C64 looked sometimes like 16bit , but played worse than 2600 games.

That means, if you decided to code on the C64 , you could have been a beginner , but graphics and sound made you look like a hero. If you decided to code the Atari, you could have done hero like software, but the results looked and sounded often like from a beginner.

 

The thing is, if people play a game, they get what's really good, and what is not.

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Guys?

May I ask you to have a look at the picture appended?

Two "opponents" in perfect harmony...

No fighting, not even stress. Just harmony.

Can we P l e a s e go back to topic?

It would make my day much better ;-)

 

Stefan

 

Both micros are so awesome the harmony exists in emulation too!

 

post-4806-0-52392100-1518820980_thumb.png

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And I have the title ready, Your Computer Sucks. Or the more friendly title, Your Computer Sucks But Don't Feel Bad, They All Do.

 

Sugarland's idea is definitely a good one. It's sometimes hard for us to separate nostalgia and/or experience from reality. What I mean by that is that all vintage computers worked in quirky ways. If you owned a particular computer back in the day, you not only would understand the quirks of operation, but also likely find them appealing (the nostalgia). The catch is when you try to use something you're not nostalgic for and/or have experience with. It can certainly be a shock to try and figure out the arcane commands to load say a Commodore disk file or realize how limited Apple II graphics and sound could be, or how certain Atari 8-bit games use color artifacts, so if you're using an S-VIDEO cable a particular game might display in black and white. Whatever. The point is, if you come at these old systems hostile or ignorant or just expecting something to work a certain way, you might very well be in for a rude awakening.

 

I find the same rude awakening with old games. I tried to start a game of Ultima IV, for instance, a few times, but really struggled with the ancient interface and older design sensibilities. It was and still is an amazing game, but 33 years removed, it's no longer as accessible and it's harder to be forgiving of its flaws. And of course, that applies to a lot of other games and vintage experiences, even on console. Sometimes nostalgia is enough to enjoy it, sometimes the game's strengths still make it enjoyable, etc., but sometimes time has not been kind and/or our own expectations have evolved.

 

For me personally, I always wanted to experience every console and computer ever made. That's why my collection got so insane until very recently. I genuinely loved everything. I know that's not a common feeling, however. For the most part, people have one or two favorites that they literally forgive or are understanding of all the flaws (or no longer recognize them).

 

So, with the above in mind, it would absolutely be fascinating to write a book that kind of takes a first timer's approach to every vintage console and computer and really exposes what some of us are blind to for whatever reason. Kind of like the "kids' react" video, except done with some soul. Even something of a satirical or comedic work in that vein would be a lot of fun.

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People and personalities etc being what they are - there is generally never any agreement about anything. Discussion should always be possible - without getting highly emotional about it.

 

I'm not anti-C64 - but was so when I was an Atari only guy. I did eventually buy one - around 1988? or thereabouts - and had it short of a year - going from cassette to disk drive (with Action Replay II cart - so as to have fast disk access).

If you were into videogames - the hardware really does not matter - it's more of a matter of what you could afford and you went with that. Being a fan of the coin-op games - I went for what was then - the best choice for me. In the early 90s' it was the time for games consoles to deliver the best games - and went onto the Genesis, then SNES.

I did go 8-bit to ST, then Amiga 500 - and wasn't happy with the ST's small active window - and jerky sprites and scrolling. And it was the PlayStation of course - that did deliver fast, smoother 3D games over it's rivals.

 

The reason for me going back into the 8-bit - was the feeling that maybe it could be pushed more now, than back then. That I like to see the missing games - done proper.

The reason why the C-64 got the games it got - was because of more people developing for it. Who knows what could have been done - if those who went C-64 - went Atari instead? ie. the developers as such.

 

It's like in the so-called real world - all the energy etc etc that went into nuclear arms development - if all that was used for peaceful advancement instead - like into research for medicine, food production, energy development, housing and so on... how advanced our development would be today. That we would have colonies on the Moon and Mars, more advanced space travel instead of primitive rocketry. But no - the US led the world in the wrong direction - and still does that today - likewise the super powers (and other so-called first world countries) are so power centric and ego minded that they stop this world from advancing ...

Very basic human values are not endorsed - instead there is this fake façade put on, that is wafer thin. Governments, religions and institutions put it on - and fail to do their jobs properly because they are really self serving.

 

Harvey

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So, with the above in mind, it would absolutely be fascinating to write a book that kind of takes a first timer's approach to every vintage console and computer and really exposes what some of us are blind to for whatever reason. Kind of like the "kids' react" video, except done with some soul. Even something of a satirical or comedic work in that vein would be a lot of fun.

 

I'd read that book

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Very interesting thread, I want to give my two cents.

 

I grew up with an Atari 2600, then a Commodore 64 and an Amiga 1000 afterwards.

 

I buy both physical and digital releases for the 2600 and C64, and I would say they have a healthy homebrew production, where you see no less than 20 something new games or hacks per year, with quite a number of those of “commercial” quality and some gems like Draconius on the 2600.

 

I recently bought an A800XL and have it modded with 1mb ram and dual SID, fixed composite output and SIO2SD. I wanted to try those Activision and Lucas games I love on the C64 that I had heard the Atari version is the best. And also Alternate Reality with music :) I found amazing being able to upgrade the memory, almost nobody uses hardware improvements in C64 besides selectable kernels.

 

So I got hold of a games collection and, well, I enjoyed Dropzone, Rescue on Fractalus, Koronis Rift, ... but didn't find many "new" releases I truly enjoyed. It took me a while to find some european website with homebrew releases, some ports like Gunfright or Skool Daze but no recent release with quality similar to the commercial games of the 80s, something I can find for the 2600 and C64.

 

While the C64 nowadays has a “second life” in terms of gaming, with programmers pushing the machine (the stock machine) to the limits with games like Galencia and Sams Journey and successful campaigns in Kickstarter like Galencia Khaos Sphere or Unknown Realms, the A8, with outstanding hardware capabilities, feels like a less interesting platform.

 

Then again, maybe I'm terribly lame searching homebrew for Atari 8 bit :(

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I wish folks would view stuff like me and others, go where the goodness is, don't have favourites that bind you only to them, have favourites that you enjoy and others that you also enjoy. I like most have moved through so many computers and consoles over the years, almost all I have really enjoyed and I don't give a rats ass about who makes them, as long as the goodness is there then I'm in. I've had great fun on both the Atari and C64 (just in case that's bias, I've had great fun on the C64 and Atari), mine didn't break down and I'm grateful for that, Xbox's broke down and I had a RROD one but I didn't write them off because of that.

 

Basing on their individual successes I think a great many folk enjoyed and still enjoy their ownership of an Atari or a C64 or both, but lets not forget that the machine is only as good as the software on it and I can say that there has been pure gold on all the machines I've owned, there's been complete rubbish as well but hey ho, its a world of chance. I really don't care how many of a machine died back then, we at Maplin had returns of Atari's, not that many but MUCH less than today's consoles where size and cost is much more of a factor and I'd bet Commodore was the same with their returns ie less than the consoles of today. I just care how much fun I had and still can have on the machines I've owned or emulated, take a good look at Stefan's lovely picture, true harmony...It can happen (if you let it)

 

And what a lovely doggie Stefan, I hope its yours, a girl?

 

My wife is stroking my daughters head (she's curled up asleep with a rotten flu) looking at your avatar and there's a huge smile on her face...

 

Paul.

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This is kind of a moot conversation anyway. Everyone knows that the VIC-20 is the best 8 bit out there. Affordable (at the time), successful in the marketplace, reliable, easy to program, huge library of games and was the starting point of many luminaries in the tech industry today.

 

Sure, the homebrew scene isn't as active as the C64 but it's still there and still producing the goods.

 

As Jeff Minter once said: "Viva Vic!". :P

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