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apf m1000 ownership and appreciation thread


APF 1000 ownership survey  

68 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you own an APF m1000?

    • Yes
      32
    • no
      24
    • what's an apf m1000?
      12

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22 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

While I respect copyright, it reaches a point where you just have to say there's no reasonable chance of tracking down who owns the rights and you can do just about any hobbyist-level/semi-commercial project you wish with it following the Internet Archive approach of "do it now and ask for forgiveness later." 

 

With that in mind, the demand for something APF-centric that's not the original console and computer or part of the original software library probably numbers in the single digits, and I'd have a hard time thinking very many people outside those of us who are into obscure and interesting hardware would care one iota about playing the generic, blocky APF games in a different way. And while Space Destroyers is the one stand-out (thanks in part to its extra RAM), it's still just another bare bones clone of Space Invaders at the end of the day (and the spoken intro on the cassette version is quite cool too, of course). For me, the best thing about the APF M/MP1000 was and always will be the historical significance of the Imagination Machine computer add-on. The actual console itself and the cartridge games are pretty awful in my opinion.

I agree with everything, except I actually like and enjoy the console and games. I was the weird kid growing up. It's definitely an uber niche market, but I find it interesting that those few that own it and thinks it's awful, don't want to part with it. Not saying you, but others I talked to through the years, when I first wanted to get one. I have an M1000 not boxed,  but it took a while. They don't come up for sale very often. For those who collect and just want a display piece, it would be cheaper to have a 3D printed version, but not playable, then some collectors can sell me an awful MP1000 unit, with a red power light. Sorry, I was dreaming. ?

 

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On 10/7/2020 at 2:13 AM, stupus said:

protecto, in barrington il

Aha, that is the same Protecto which bought e.g. all the surplus Commodore CBM-II (B series) machines and had a massive clearout in the mid-80's. I think they only dealed with stock, not intellectual properties.

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On 10/6/2020 at 7:42 PM, masschamber said:

one bright side is everything on the apf is off the shelf and most chips are socketed

Based on a brief look at the schematic, it doesn't look like it would be too terribly difficult to build a system from scratch. A controller could easily be put together from common, off-the-shelf parts. 

 

Not sure I'd ever get so desperate as to actually build my own, but since we had one with I was a kid, I would like to have an M/MP1000. Well, at least for a week or two until I figured out how terrible it actually was. :) 

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7 minutes ago, BigO said:

Based on a brief look at the schematic, it doesn't look like it would be too terribly difficult to build a system from scratch. A controller could easily be put together from common, off-the-shelf parts. 

 

Not sure I'd ever get so desperate as to actually build my own, but since we had one with I was a kid, I would like to have an M/MP1000. Well, at least for a week or two until I figured out how terrible it actually was. :) 

I think the only thing would be the rom, but the system is basically a worse coco 1

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9 hours ago, BigO said:

Based on a brief look at the schematic, it doesn't look like it would be too terribly difficult to build a system from scratch. A controller could easily be put together from common, off-the-shelf parts. 

 

Not sure I'd ever get so desperate as to actually build my own, but since we had one with I was a kid, I would like to have an M/MP1000. Well, at least for a week or two until I figured out how terrible it actually was. :) 

If you build it, I may buy it, at least the controllers. 

Edited by Judge Mental
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11 hours ago, masschamber said:

the system is basically a worse coco 1

It reminds me, I believe Jim Gerrie or someone else ported some BASIC games from the APF Imagination Machine to the Tandy MC-10. I don't know about machine code, how different the 6800 and 6803 are, respective the graphics systems on each system.

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3 hours ago, Judge Mental said:

If you build it, I may buy it, at least the controllers. 

If I read the schematic correctly, the controllers themselves just contain a 4x4 matrix of switches. One row is the 4 joystick directions.

 

The 4 scanning row signals are common to the two controllers. So from a certain technical perspective the hardware really implements a 4x8 matrix. Physically, it just so happens that 16 switches are physically separate from the other 16.

 

If I had a console, I'm 90+% confident that I could build a working controller. My first proof of concept would be to simply wire up a 4x4 matrix keypad in place of a controller.  So, if you have a spare console you're looking to let go at a reasonable price...?

 

 

Edited by BigO
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On 10/8/2020 at 3:28 AM, carlsson said:

Aha, that is the same Protecto which bought e.g. all the surplus Commodore CBM-II (B series) machines and had a massive clearout in the mid-80's. I think they only dealed with stock, not intellectual properties.

Yes, i think they bought alot of various unsold stock. It was quite a big store for the time. We would make trips there to get blank floppies for around 40 cents a piece. Which was a great price :)

They did have catalogs and even manuals for apf with their name on them but it probably is likely they didnt get ip rights....but who knows. If they didnt maybe there was some other agreement with apf...or apf just didnt care anymore and wanted to forget it ever happened.

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5 hours ago, BigO said:

If I read the schematic correctly, the controllers themselves just contain a 4x4 matrix of switches. One row is the 4 joystick directions.

 

The 4 scanning row signals are common to the two controllers. So from a certain technical perspective the hardware really implements a 4x8 matrix. Physically, it just so happens that 16 switches are physically separate from the other 16.

 

If I had a console, I'm 90+% confident that I could build a working controller. My first proof of concept would be to simply wire up a 4x4 matrix keypad in place of a controller.  So, if you have a spare console you're looking to let go at a reasonable price...?

 

 

Sadly I don't have a spare console, but the controller is hardwired but not hardwired into the console. It is plugged into the pcb and can be detached from within. I don't know what  you call it. I can send you the dead controller and hope for the best.

 

Thanks for replying, Mike

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1 hour ago, Judge Mental said:

Sadly I don't have a spare console, but the controller is hardwired but not hardwired into the console. It is plugged into the pcb and can be detached from within. I don't know what  you call it. I can send you the dead controller and hope for the best.

 

Thanks for replying, Mike

Oh, well, since yours has a broken controller it's totally worthless. I'll take it off your hands for a few bucks. But I promise to let you know if the home brew controller works. ?

 

If you were local to me, I might give it a shot at some point. But I've built enough custom controllers and such to know that I always mess up something the first time around. I wouldn't want to try without a test platform at hand. At that, one that I own just in case I do some damage.

 

Out of curiosity, what does the connector that connects the controller to the board look like? If it's a readily available part it might be worthwhile for somebody to figure out a controller. 

 

Seeing how the joystick directions are all common to one scan row, it might be possible to adapt an Atari 2600 or other dirt common controller for the joystick portion. 

 

Lots of 4x3 matrix keypads exist.

 

 

 

Edited by BigO
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7 hours ago, carlsson said:

It reminds me, I believe Jim Gerrie or someone else ported some BASIC games from the APF Imagination Machine to the Tandy MC-10. I don't know about machine code, how different the 6800 and 6803 are, respective the graphics systems on each system.

Pretty sure the apf m 1000 uses the same Motorola graphics chip as the coco 1, the 6847,  and I think the only difference on the cpu side is the 6803 has ram in the ic

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2 hours ago, BigO said:

Oh, well, since yours has a broken controller it's totally worthless. I'll take it off your hands for a few bucks. But I promise to let you know if the home brew controller works. ?

 

If you were local to me, I might give it a shot at some point. But I've built enough custom controllers and such to know that I always mess up something the first time around. I wouldn't want to try without a test platform at hand. At that, one that I own just in case I do some damage.

 

Out of curiosity, what does the connector that connects the controller to the board look like? If it's a readily available part it might be worthwhile for somebody to figure out a controller. 

 

Seeing how the joystick directions are all common to one scan row, it might be possible to adapt an Atari 2600 or other dirt common controller for the joystick portion. 

 

Lots of 4x3 matrix keypads exist.

 

 

 

It's one of those white plastic heads with pin holes that slip onto these metal pin thingies that come out of the board. 

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2 hours ago, Judge Mental said:

It's one of those white plastic heads with pin holes that slip onto these metal pin thingies that come out of the board. 

Heh, that narrows it down to about 99% of the connectors in the world.

Actually, I was thinking of a picture. Surely you must carry pictures of the innards of all of your consoles with you wherever you go. :)

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Not sure it's an exact match, but pretty sure that this one I have in my parts bin would fit. Those tabs might be in the way. It looks like the original connector has the tabs completely outside of the pins, where the ones I have overlap the outer two pin holes a bit. Some whittling might be called for. :)

So, yeah, it's probably common enough not to consider the connector a limiting factor.

I bought the same connector (with more positions) for a controller project a few years ago.

 

1067580340_WIN_20201010_07_54_10_Pro(2).thumb.jpg.dec0a8c7a2eae5e4861bc82235944fbc.jpg

 

 

In looking again, I noticed that the schematic doesn't supply any pin numbers for the controller connections. So, somebody building a controller would need to trace the connector pins back to the PIA or figure out the pins via trial and error. Most likely, the Rows would be grouped together and the Columns would be grouped together on the connector which would make the guesswork less random. Either way, one would need a console at hand to come up with a working controller.

Also, if it's the "main" controller that's broken and preventing you from playing games, I see no electrical reason that you couldn't just swap the connectors where they plug into the main board. The label on the controller would be wrong, but surely you could manage to compensate for that in some manner. :) I don't think it would do any damage to plug the connector in backward anyway so strict keying shouldn't be necessary.

 

WIN_20201010_07_54_10_Pro.jpg

Edited by BigO
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If you have any fabrication skills, off the shelf parts could be used to build yourself a controller: 
https://www.amazon.com/Tegg-Tactile-Phone-Style-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07RY85MGF/ref=sr_1_2

https://www.adafruit.com/product/480

 

It should be possible, though potentially somewhat tedious, for someone to guide you through the wiring remotely.

If you should undertake that, it would be best to start a new thread. I'm sure I've polluted this one enough as it is.

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8 hours ago, BigO said:

Not sure it's an exact match, but pretty sure that this one I have in my parts bin would fit. Those tabs might be in the way. It looks like the original connector has the tabs completely outside of the pins, where the ones I have overlap the outer two pin holes a bit. Some whittling might be called for. :)

So, yeah, it's probably common enough not to consider the connector a limiting factor.

I bought the same connector (with more positions) for a controller project a few years ago.

 

1067580340_WIN_20201010_07_54_10_Pro(2).thumb.jpg.dec0a8c7a2eae5e4861bc82235944fbc.jpg

 

 

In looking again, I noticed that the schematic doesn't supply any pin numbers for the controller connections. So, somebody building a controller would need to trace the connector pins back to the PIA or figure out the pins via trial and error. Most likely, the Rows would be grouped together and the Columns would be grouped together on the connector which would make the guesswork less random. Either way, one would need a console at hand to come up with a working controller.

Also, if it's the "main" controller that's broken and preventing you from playing games, I see no electrical reason that you couldn't just swap the connectors where they plug into the main board. The label on the controller would be wrong, but surely you could manage to compensate for that in some manner. :) I don't think it would do any damage to plug the connector in backward anyway so strict keying shouldn't be necessary.

 

WIN_20201010_07_54_10_Pro.jpg

I already swapped the controllers so that the right controller can play the games, but you need the left controller to play brickdown. Weird right?

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12 hours ago, BigO said:

If you have any fabrication skills, off the shelf parts could be used to build yourself a controller: 
https://www.amazon.com/Tegg-Tactile-Phone-Style-Arduino-Raspberry/dp/B07RY85MGF/ref=sr_1_2

https://www.adafruit.com/product/480

 

It should be possible, though potentially somewhat tedious, for someone to guide you through the wiring remotely.

If you should undertake that, it would be best to start a new thread. I'm sure I've polluted this one enough as it 

I'm a beginner, but I'd like to learn how to repair these old consoles someday. But first, I'll have to work on my patience. If remote assistance is possible, how much would you charge?

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  • 3 months later...

I found one of these consoles today in the wild and bought it with one game (Pinball/Dungeon Hunt/Blockout). Haven’t opened it yet, but I’m not very technical. Here’s what I’m seeing so far: it boots but Rocket Patrol doesn’t seem to take any input from either controller. If I play Pinball, I can play with the right controller only. Pinball uses down, right, left, fire, and Enter, and all of those work on the right controller. Left controller doesn’t seem to do anything here either. 
 

Weirdest thing is that in both games, I do not get the startup screen with game select at all. It just boots directly to game 1. So my theory is either something is wrong with the booting, or one of the controllers is constantly sending a 1 signal from its keypad. Could be left controller is dead and right controller is sending 1, or left controller is always sending 1 and right controller works as normal. 


I can take it back if it “doesn’t work”, but I would be happier if there’s a fix that a dumb guy with some screwdrivers and simple parts can do. Any advice is appreciated, including telling me if there’s a better thread to ask in. 

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20 hours ago, kanisama said:

I found one of these consoles today in the wild and bought it with one game (Pinball/Dungeon Hunt/Blockout). Haven’t opened it yet, but I’m not very technical. Here’s what I’m seeing so far: it boots but Rocket Patrol doesn’t seem to take any input from either controller. If I play Pinball, I can play with the right controller only. Pinball uses down, right, left, fire, and Enter, and all of those work on the right controller. Left controller doesn’t seem to do anything here either. 
 

Weirdest thing is that in both games, I do not get the startup screen with game select at all. It just boots directly to game 1. So my theory is either something is wrong with the booting, or one of the controllers is constantly sending a 1 signal from its keypad. Could be left controller is dead and right controller is sending 1, or left controller is always sending 1 and right controller works as normal. 


I can take it back if it “doesn’t work”, but I would be happier if there’s a fix that a dumb guy with some screwdrivers and simple parts can do. Any advice is appreciated, including telling me if there’s a better thread to ask in. 

I took apart the left controller and removed the sheet of switches, and lo and behold I see the game select screen. Clicking in the switches by hand, I can verify right and down work, but left doesn’t, and I’m not sure any of my games use Up. Hopefully just cleaning the board and replacing all these switches will lead to full restoration. Guess I’m keeping it :)

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  • 8 months later...

Around 16-18 years ago I saw one of these in pristine boxed condition at a distant Goodwill I was traveling through, for $20. Complete with all packaging materials, Styrofoam and plastic that made me believe it had never been connected. It was alongside a similarly boxed NES system for the same price. At the time I was not much into collecting but would occasionally grab old sets for cheap. I made the foolish mistake of believing the M1000 was just some variant of the APF TV Fun that I already had and at the last minute I put it back and just bought the NES. Only after getting home did I look up the M1000 and saw how rare and interesting it was. I called the store to see if they could locate it in the event it was still there, but they couldn't find it. That's a regret I still have every day.

 

At some point later I did get one with the box in fair shape with a couple games. I only hooked it up once and remember it having terrible RF signal and further, at least one of the two controllers had metal and pieces busted inside of it. This was also long before I was into repairing systems or diving deep into these types of sets... Somehow a post about this came up elsewhere and led me to this thread and made me remember all of it. I still have the boxed version but can't seem to locate the adapter (does anyone know what polarity the original adapter used and if an ordinary 12V DC universal may suffice?) Now I'm sort of intrigued by it again.

 

Edit - Found another thread here mentioning AC NES adapters work well, or any 7.5V AC adapter.

 

Edit 2 - Works fine with the NES adapter though the 9V vs. 7.5V makes me weary so will hold of using more till I get a proper adapter. I can confirm the RF signal issue I experienced before must've been switch-related as the more modern direct-to-coaxial input works well. It is in need of some recaps as it is quite wobbly but does work (including cartridge loading). The controllers on the other hand are really not great. Buttons do not even depress, a few work, the fire button works. Sorry for poor photo it actually was quite clear in person.

 

20211010_215742.thumb.jpg.c3fb3264c008ec8829451385cfabe9bd.jpg

 

20211010_215824.thumb.jpg.e2480e37e56c1f0dbe3ac80632bd041f.jpg

 

20211010_223003.thumb.jpg.53d4ffe6612c23684ad76b3111922c8d.jpg

Edited by MattPilz
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