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7 minutes ago, RevEng said:

It's a good thing because it means people won't be motivated to turn out games that aren't desired. The market will speak, and punish them. It's a good thing because it might support a different class of classic game dev.

I think we should agree that we are completely opposite here. What you think is good, is totally bad, IMO.

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Believe it or not, $300 isn't "major profit", and that's one-time. For one, the NFT cost $120 to mint.

So even more money involved just to get this going.

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For another, selling this sort of NFT is a promise to keep the thing the NFT represents (as opposed to the NFT itself, which is on blockchain) available as long as a viable market exists. So I'll have domain and hosting costs for the foreseeable future.

That part I understand. 

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I take it you never accepted more than $30 in royaltees from Al?

Feel free to contact Al any time, he can tell you a lot about my motivation. :) 

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch

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14 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

You are completely free to go where you like. But IMO you are starting to separate yourself from people who are doing this as a hobby. And especially from people who want this to stay a hobby with minimal financial interests. For reasons given above.

I don't think that gradient ascent approach works well. As soon as there is financial interest, as soon there is compromise of artistic freedom. And it only gets worse the more money is involved.

Yes, I accept an indy dev working on classic platforms will have different motivations. Yes, it won't be art for art's sake, but rather a reflection of what the artist thinks the customer wants. I don't see that as a bad thing. It doesn't mean that hobby coders will disappear, any more than hobby musicians have disappeared.

 

If money in our hobby is a bad thing, then the consistent belief is that money in music and art is a compromise. If you only listen to hobby musicians, and only partake in hobby art, then I applaud you. Otherwise it's an inconsistency.

 

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1 minute ago, RevEng said:

If money in our hobby is a bad thing, then the consistent belief is money in music and art is a compromise. If you only listen to hobby musicians, and only partake in hobby art, then I applaud you. Otherwise it's an inconsistency.

I never said I am totally consistent. :) 

 

But I very much enjoy the existence of artists who are doing art for art.

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1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I never said I am totally consistent. :) 

 

But I very much enjoy the existence of artists who are doing art for art.

Nobody is trying to kill that. Clearly you'll still be doing it, and I don't imagine you'll be alone.

 

[edit] there will also be a large percentage of players that insist on free games, so you'll always have an audience too. These things can coexist.

 

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Interesting debate.  Ethereum is an interesting art project.  It's a conversation starter.

 

Maybe someday, it would be nice to see a moderated section here on AtariAge to share links to NFT projects.  That way, we don't have to sift through the huge pile of lazy lousy NFTs (that are floating out there) to find quality video game projects.  I agree with Andrew; without guaranteed royalties, many people are going to be less interested.

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5 hours ago, RevEng said:

I'm not expecting any AA buyer participation, and don't encourage it either - I strongly recommend that people should stay away from any crypto propositions they don't understand. (the exact same recommendation should go for any fiat currency propositions, too.)

 

I was hesitant about creating an AA thread about the project (legit wasn't looking to encourage any AA buying participation) but if you or anyone else wants to go into more depth, or has more questions, I can go ahead and do that. Let me know.

First, I want to make clear that the fact that I have a lot of questions about the what and why of what you are doing isn't me distrusting your motives for your distribution method. I think you have earned more than adequate karma here based on all of your contributions to the 2600 and 7800 development scenes.

 

The part that I quoted has me confused about who you are expecting to try and play your game? If AA members don't buy and sell the NFT, then they won't be the ones who get to play it, right? Do you picture the people playing your game being primarily Atari homebrew community members, or NFT collectors.

 

Again, I'm definitely not aiming to be critical. It should be interesting to see how it plays out regardless. I'm just curious how you would picture an ideal outcome for this particular experiment.

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Thanks Karl, I appreciate that. The fact that a lot of developers watch the show is why I reached out to James. I figured that karma balance would allow for the idea to be aired and discussed reasonably. I certainly knew the topic would be controversial.

 

The ideal outcome of the project to me would be initial buy interest from people who are already crypto-savvy *and* interested in classic games (and likely get a kick out of the combined novelty) which would prove out the distribution concept, and establish that there's market liquidity. (i.e. there are sufficient interested buyers for the holder of the NFT to resell it.) Crypto-savvy folks are more familiar with the risk of insufficient liquidity (or at least should be) and other issues around crypto, so I don't have to worry about their decisions being ill-informed.

 

If there are people on AA that hold and use Ethereum (the cryptocurrency) I'm not telling for them to stay away. I just don't want to try to be the driving force behind anybody purchasing a speculative+volatile asset (crypto) for the first time, for the sake of playing a classic game, nor am I pretending that my NFT has proven liquidity. If that dooms the project, so be it.

 

This is very much an experiment in hill climbing, and honestly, success is unlikely. I consider Rikki&Vikki part of the same hill-climbing experiment. If my climb works, others can follow me up a similar path. If it fails, then the path can be marked as failed, and the next attempt can be a little better educated as to what doesn't work.

 

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5 hours ago, vitoco said:

James, you can link my BASIC tenliners project page:

 

I hope that by that day you have solved your XEGS hardware problem. 

 

 

Thanks @vitoco, I've linked your page now, thanks for the suggestion. I should have something worked out by then, more details on the show tonight. 🙂

 

- James

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Caught the Ethereum stream and resulting fuss a little late, but I want to chime in on a few things after doing lots of reading...

 

On 8/28/2021 at 4:38 PM, RevEng said:

Thanks Karl, I appreciate that. The fact that a lot of developers watch the show is why I reached out to James. I figured that karma balance would allow for the idea to be aired and discussed reasonably. I certainly knew the topic would be controversial.

I think a very important takeaway is how different the reactions were between the Atari and Crypto communities on Reddit, where all positive feedback was from the latter.

 

It's like watching a rerun of Circus Convoy's discussion here versus off the board, and there's a lot of assumption going on about intent in the posts above. Putting actual dosh behind a project has no impact on developing games as a hobby - seriously, what exactly is being taken from you? If you're creating just for the sake of it, then none of that noise should matter.

 

I'm not a supporter of Crypto Currency and think NFTs are incredibly dumb, but weird experiments like this are overall a good thing - and this one was handled well. Now we can watch and see if it falls over, is just a one-time novelty, or actually has legs.

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53 minutes ago, TailChao said:

Caught the Ethereum stream and resulting fuss a little late, but I want to chime in on a few things after doing lots of reading...

Thanks for watching! I love having games on the stream that introduce new approaches to development and/or marketing and then reading the resulting discussion, and Ethereum 2600 was no exception.
 

- James

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1 hour ago, TailChao said:

I'm not a supporter of Crypto Currency and think NFTs are incredibly dumb, but weird experiments like this are overall a good thing - and this one was handled well. Now we can watch and see if it falls over, is just a one-time novelty, or actually has legs.

Before I get misinterpreted: I am all for experiments too. This one just doesn't work for me.

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There's no way we can have a proper conversation about why cryptocurrency matters, here in this thread.  It's going to hijack everything.  Nevertheless, I think the blockchain has merit.  I see multiple projects with ideas that will change the world someday--and benefit society.  Of course, we aren't there, yet.  Maybe these projects will become MySpace when a Facebook shows up and does it better, I don't know.  There are professional devs out there with real visions of disrupting the banking and online "app stores" with the blockchain; it's not a scam.  I am not going to add any examples, because this isn't a promotion, but I am telling the truth.  It's not about ripping off bubble investors, meme coins, or crime.  Grifters and criminals always flock to new things; we'll flush them out as the industry matures.  Ignore the grifters.  I would go on, but it's impossible without promoting something.  This needs it's own thread.  But, where does it go?

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On 9/2/2021 at 12:05 PM, TailChao said:

I think a very important takeaway is how different the reactions were between the Atari and Crypto communities on Reddit, where all positive feedback was from the latter.

I agree the difference in reactions was instructive. This is totally one of the factors in my previous statement that I am "probably a decade too early here." A good chunk of the general public's perception is that crypto is all a ponzi scheme, and NFTs exist solely for money laundering. If you break down the public by age, this absolute negativity is more common in older segments, which doesn't help my case either.

 

However things play out, some time next week I intend to put together a post-mortem of sorts, going over decisions that were made, what factors helped or hurt, etc.

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1 hour ago, RevEng said:

However things play out, some time next week I intend to put together a post-mortem of sorts, going over decisions that were made, what factors helped or hurt, etc.

Looking forward to reading that!

 

- James

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Just a quick update on everybody's favourite and completely uncontroversial topic, the Ethereum 2600 NFT... heading into the weekend I lowered the minimum bid to 0.01 ETH (about $39) because I was worried about being off the price curve entirely. It was a bit of a risk for a couple reasons. First reason being the lowered price reduces impetus to resell, which could end redistribution. Second reason being the fact that I was trying to walk the line between collectable and game with this project, and I didn't have any idea if I was looking at a regular demand curve or Veblen demand curve. For the latter, lowering the price reduces demand.

 

The auction ended this afternoon without any offers, and then a few seconds later I was sent an offer of 0.18 ETH. I'll be accepting it later tonight. (just waiting for ETH gas fees to come down a bit.)

 

This update isn't in lieu of that post-mortem I said I'd do; I'm still planning to get that out this coming week, and with some luck there might even be some resale info in it too.

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2 minutes ago, RevEng said:

The auction ended this afternoon without any offers, and then a few seconds later I was sent an offer of 0.18 ETH. I'll be accepting it later tonight. (just waiting for ETH gas fees to come down a bit.)

After you accept the offer it should officially make Ethereum 2600 the first ever video game sold via NFT (unless proven otherwise)! Thanks for the update!

 

- James

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It may be time to update your tag-line:  ZeroPage Homebrew, your BEST source for the NEWEST Atari 2600 & 7800 games!  now that you are delving into Atari 8-bit systems.  I certainly don't mind as everything is still technically "Zero Page" thanks to the trusty MOS 6502 chip that they all contain .. and it's been a historical education on my part being a Commodore 64 kid that all of those variations of Atari computers were based on similar architecture.  

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10 minutes ago, littaum said:

It may be time to update your tag-line:  ZeroPage Homebrew, your BEST source for the NEWEST Atari 2600 & 7800 games!  now that you are delving into Atari 8-bit systems.  I certainly don't mind as everything is still technically "Zero Page" thanks to the trusty MOS 6502 chip that they all contain .. and it's been a historical education on my part being a Commodore 64 kid that all of those variations of Atari computers were based on similar architecture.  

"ZeroPage Homebrew, your BEST source for the NEWEST Atari homebrew games!"..... until James adds Vectrex to the show ;-) !!!! LOL

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, littaum said:

It may be time to update your tag-line:  ZeroPage Homebrew, your BEST source for the NEWEST Atari 2600 & 7800 games!  now that you are delving into Atari 8-bit systems.  I certainly don't mind as everything is still technically "Zero Page" thanks to the trusty MOS 6502 chip that they all contain .. and it's been a historical education on my part being a Commodore 64 kid that all of those variations of Atari computers were based on similar architecture.  

I'm really loving the Atari 8-bit computer platform and I'm definitely going to be sticking to Atari systems, there may be one offs here and there of other systems but my focus will be the 2600/5200/7800/8-bit Family. 🙂

 

I could technically add in the NES and probably a few washing machines if my only requirement is the 6502 chip! Hahah.

 

44 minutes ago, Arenafoot said:

"ZeroPage Homebrew, your BEST source for the NEWEST Atari homebrew games!"..... until James adds Vectrex to the show ;-) !!!! LOL

It may be time to change the tag line, Atari 8-bit computer games are here to stay on the show!

 

- James

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2 hours ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said:

I'm really loving the Atari 8-bit computer platform and I'm definitely going to be sticking to Atari systems, there may be one offs here and there of other systems but my focus will be the 2600/5200/7800/8-bit Family. 🙂

 

I could technically add in the NES and probably a few washing machines if my only requirement is the 6502 chip! Hahah.

 

It may be time to change the tag line, Atari 8-bit computer games are here to stay on the show!

 

- James

I'm a die-hard who only wants to see '2600 stuff on the show.

I have zero interest in the others, and if these show up on the show I switch off, so to speak.

 

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1 hour ago, Andrew Davie said:

I'm a die-hard who only wants to see '2600 stuff on the show.

I have zero interest in the others, and if these show up on the show I switch off, so to speak.

I expect other viewers are the same about other systems. 🙂 I tend to group shows with a single console to make it easy to tune in to the ones you enjoy.

 

My first love will always be the 2600!!

 

- James

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14 minutes ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said:

My first love will always be the 2600!!

Wondering how Tanya feels about that... :ponder: 

;) 

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