AtGames 2018 speculation thread

[garyd97]

Why would the sd card not read out of thebox like the portable does? I originally had high hopes for this years model. Give me a flashback 8 with sd suport out of the box and i am happy.

[Bill Loguidice]

Why would the sd card not read out of thebox like the portable does? I originally had high hopes for this years model. Give me a flashback 8 with sd suport out of the box and i am happy.

Yeah, it's strange, but there are valid reasons. Fortunately, firmware updates are now possible.

[thetick1]

Only the new wired paddles work with the FB 9 series.

 

Yes, it's Stella 3.x on the FB 9 series and our usual in-house emulator on the Blast! series.

 

SD card functionality on all systems can only be unlocked with a different firmware. I'm sure it will be made available one way or another soon after release.

 

That is all good to know. So with the added facts the Blast (Pong) is Atari only, no Kaboom! , and using the old ATGames emulator I'll definitely get a FB 9 or FB 9 Gold with Stella 3.X. I'm anticipating Stella 5.X hacks in a month or two. Anyway it all depends what the reviews are on the wireless delay of FB 9 Gold as I am expecting the paddles to work great with almost no delay as they are the new product design specifically to address the paddle latency.

 

I'll just stop by Sam's Club during the holiday season and pick up 2 extra metal wrapped HDMI cables for $20.

Edited September 30, 2018 by thetick1

[phoenixdownita]

 

That is all good to know. So with the added facts the Blast (Pong) is Atari only, no Kaboom! , and using the old ATGames emulator I'll definitely get a FB 9 or FB 9 Gold with Stella 3.X. I'm anticipating Stella 5.X hacks in a month or two. Anyway it all depends what the reviews are on the wireless delay of FB 9 Gold as I am expecting the paddles to work great with almost no delay as they are the new product design specifically to address the paddle latency.

 

I'll just stop by Sam's Club during the holiday season and pick up 2 extra metal wrapped HDMI cables for $20.

will see

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/283093-the-flashback-9-has-an-sd-card-slot/?do=findComment&comment=4124092

 

"repost of the relevant pieces"

 

stephena post may have been buried as he was replying to me here:

http://atariage.com/...o/#entry4093213

but he already volunteered a head start for the R77:

https://github.com/s.../wiki/Retron-77

in specific this anchor link

https://github.com/s...rsion-of-stella

[thetick1]

will see

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/283093-the-flashback-9-has-an-sd-card-slot/?do=findComment&comment=4124092

 

"repost of the relevant pieces"

 

stephena post may have been buried as he was replying to me here:

http://atariage.com/...o/#entry4093213

but he already volunteered a head start for the R77:

https://github.com/s.../wiki/Retron-77

in specific this anchor link

https://github.com/s...rsion-of-stella

 

I'm certainly not going to claim I will definitely do it or even have any time but if root access is hacked or there is an easy way to upgrade Stella and any dependency libraries .. I would certainly investigate how much work I think it would take. I've been doing custom embedded Linux kernel builds since the mid 90's (as small as 4Meg memory systems) and have decades of experience of porting various Unix shell, perl, C applications, libraries, and drivers to Linux.

 

I do mostly cloud migration now days but still do the occasional raw metal Solaris or AIX --> Linux migration.

Edited September 30, 2018 by thetick1

[phoenixdownita]

...I've been doing custom embedded Linux kernel builds since the mid 90's (as small as 4Meg memory systems) and have decades of experience of porting various Unix shell, perl, C applications, libraries, and drivers to Linux.

 

...

Not to chastise you, but 4MB in '95 were actually quite some, Win95 listed 4MB as min req (it really worked with 8MB to be fair):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_95#System_requirements

 

but I understand what you meant to say, maybe once this thing is busted open and we know what chip it has (and hence what GPU) you can take a crack at it.

[Keatah]

Probably that allwinner shit.

[atarifan88]

Only the new wired paddles work with the FB 9 series.

Yes, it's Stella 3.x on the FB 9 series and our usual in-house emulator on the Blast! series.

SD card functionality on all systems can only be unlocked with a different firmware. I'm sure it will be made available one way or another soon after release.

I thought it was up to 5.x at one point? What happened that it needed to go down to 3.x? I have to admit i'm a little disappointed. I figured the new flashback would be way more advanced than the Retron 77. I guess now I will have to play the waiting game to see if the reviews come back good and if there is any SD card functionality to loading roms. Edited September 30, 2018 by atarifan88

[Atariboy]

I believe Bill said earlier in this thread that they were trying, but that it wasn't set in stone for this year. But I believe he said that if it didn't happen, then they'd set their sights on making it happen for 2019.

 

So if it's important to you, you might want to consider holding off for the Atari Flashback 10 or see what happens with the homebrew community.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Atariboy

[Sardonyx]

Only the new wired paddles work with the FB 9 series.

 

 

Please tell me these are marked in someway to distinguish them from the paddles that have been released for 40 years. It sucks that we can't use older paddles on the FB9, but it will really suck if these new ones look the same and start end up in the secondary markets (like eBay) with no way to tell what they are as I assume they will not work with original Atari hardware or the older Flashbacks.

[Keatah]

 

Please tell me these are marked in someway to distinguish them from the paddles that have been released for 40 years. It sucks that we can't use older paddles on the FB9, but it will really suck if these new ones look the same and start end up in the secondary markets (like eBay) with no way to tell what they are as I assume they will not work with original Atari hardware or the older Flashbacks.

 

If they aren't marked or molded distinctly then you will have to mark them yourself. Just put pink nail polish on a set. Or use a tie-tie or tie wrap or simple piece of tape. I don't see what the big deal is about this.

[Keatah]

I thought it was up to 5.x at one point? What happened that it needed to go down to 3.x? I have to admit i'm a little disappointed. I figured the new flashback would be way more advanced than the Retron 77. I guess now I will have to play the waiting game to see if the reviews come back good and if there is any SD card functionality to loading roms.

 

I don't know what cpu/gpu combo is in the new units. But, it's likely gonna be that cheap-ass Allwinner SoC stuff which comes with a Mali GPU. A GPU that was used in cellphones in 2006!

 

So.. Stella 5 and up use SDL2 libraries. And these libraries likely don't support whatever hardware AtGames is using. This means the libraries need to be re-written.

[Sardonyx]

 

If they aren't marked or molded distinctly then you will have to mark them yourself. Just put pink nail polish on a set. Or use a tie-tie or tie wrap or simple piece of tape. I don't see what the big deal is about this.

 

I'm thinking more about once they're in the wild. If they look the same as the old ones, then there's no way to know whether a set of paddles someone sells online will work with your setup or not. In a few years when people who don't know about this distinction come across these and are throwing stuff up on eBay is when it will become a problem if they look exactly the same.

[phoenixdownita]

I believe Bill said earlier in this thread that they were trying, but that it wasn't set in stone for this year. But I believe he said that if it didn't happen, then they'd set their sights on making it happen for 2019.

 

So if it's important to you, you might want to consider holding off for the Atari Flashback 10 or see what happens with the homebrew community.

This is AtGames we are taking about, they have been promising or hinting at a fixed Genny for a decade or more.

Stella 3 is a 5Y old version ( http://atariage.com/forums/topic/221078-stella-393-released/) .... there's no excuse, there's no "wait another year".

 

Only thing I've seen them doing is "assimilate" Bill into talking their mantra of "wait another year", "we'll fix it next season" and other marketing nonsense.

 

They should put it in bold font onto their packages "we'll fix it next year" and see how that goes. I'll pay with a check that says "I'll pay you after it's been fixed" ... I'm also getting tired of "take it for what it is" kind of narrative ... you mean a quick'n'dirty excuse of a novelty item for a cash grab against people that will forget they had it after 1 week? .... what kind of niche is that? No wonder it doesn't get fixed.

[Atariboy]

All I was doing was passing along what Bill Loguidice (their representative around here) said about the version of Stella being utilized, to someone disappointed that it's not using one of the latest builds.

 

I for one believe them since the Atari Flashback 8 HD was a giant leap forward after years of just rereleases with different game lineups and extras with no effort of note being invested to address flaws. And with the Flashback 9 looking again to be a worthwhile step forward regardless of the version of Stella powering it, I see no reason not to expect further enhancements at this rate with the Atari Flashback 10 (including hopefully a more modern Stella build).

 

This isn't the work of AtGames of old. Actual effort is clearly being invested to do more than swap a few games around and update things like boxart.

 

 

There is no milking going on. It's just a matter of having the time to make a later version work or not. Deadlines are set by the retail calendar. Really, if there was milking, other features wouldn't be present, like the SD card slot. It's not like these types of things don't sell reliably either way.

I can't confirm as of yet what version is going to be on there, but there's definitely a chance it's a 3.x instead of a 5.x. I just don't want the 5.x thing to gain steam in case it doesn't work out on the final release units.

 

This is likely true. If there's no 5.x implementation this year, it's obviously the target for next.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Atariboy

[thetick1]

Not to chastise you, but 4MB in '95 were actually quite some, Win95 listed 4MB as min req (it really worked with 8MB to be fair):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_95#System_requirements

 

but I understand what you meant to say, maybe once this thing is busted open and we know what chip it has (and hence what GPU) you can take a crack at it.

 

I was referring to embedded PPC boards running Linux with only 4MB of system memory. They had nothing to do with Windows or even Intel architecture.

Edited October 1, 2018 by thetick1

[phoenixdownita]

I don't know why you're directing that at me for. All I was doing was passing along what Bill Loguidice (their representative around here) said about the version of Stella here, to someone disappointed that it's not using one of the latest builds.

 

 

The last sentence sounded a bit "paternalistic", sorry I misunderstood the intention.

[phoenixdownita]

 

I was referring to embedded PPC boards running Linux with only 4MB of system memory. They had nothing to do with Windows or even Intel architecture.

Just using as a term of comparison, 4MB in 95 was not immediately paltry especially for embedded systems.

 

Anyhow I really wish that if you find the time to hack this thing you can advance it and have Stella 5 run on it .. that is all that matters really, given you seem to have the experience to pull it off.

[Atariboy]

The last sentence sounded a bit "paternalistic", sorry I misunderstood the intention.

 

I reworded my post as you were composing your response, so your quote of my post doesn't fit now.

 

I didn't like the tone my post had when I reread it after hitting the reply button. I also added some quotes to my reply and included my reasons why I personally find it believable these days to expect improvements with these devices.

 

I don't blame people for being so pessimistic. When you compare the Atari Flashback 3 with the Atari Flashback 7, nothing really changed with the core of the unit. But that happily doesn't seem to apply these past two years.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Atariboy

[phoenixdownita]

 

I reworded my post, so your quote doesn't fit now.

 

I didn't like the tone my post had after I reread it after hitting the reply button.

Given I quoted your post, your re-edit would't apply .... don't worry I get what you're getting at but it still is kind of depressing

Stella 5 https://stella-emu.github.io/changelog.html has been out for more than 1Y (5.0 is dated Jun 2017) there was enough time if they wanted to ... but it costs time and money and apparently they don't have enough of either, for this year .... the next is all shit'n'giggles at this stage.

[Bill Loguidice]

This is AtGames we are taking about, they have been promising or hinting at a fixed Genny for a decade or more.

Stella 3 is a 5Y old version ( http://atariage.com/forums/topic/221078-stella-393-released/) .... there's no excuse, there's no "wait another year".

 

Only thing I've seen them doing is "assimilate" Bill into talking their mantra of "wait another year", "we'll fix it next season" and other marketing nonsense.

 

They should put it in bold font onto their packages "we'll fix it next year" and see how that goes. I'll pay with a check that says "I'll pay you after it's been fixed" ... I'm also getting tired of "take it for what it is" kind of narrative ... you mean a quick'n'dirty excuse of a novelty item for a cash grab against people that will forget they had it after 1 week? .... what kind of niche is that? No wonder it doesn't get fixed.

 

OK, let's a get a few things out of the way. You can judge my "assimilation" any way you want, but I've always done my best to provide as many updates and previews as possible as things were actually happening. I can see now that this is probably a mistake, because since it's all in more or less real-time, as with any product development, things will and do happen, including, but not limited to, running out time, hitting unforseen bugs, introducing new bugs between builds, etc. I have always tried to provide what insight I could, because I know on the other side I always appreciated that. However, I see how that can be frustrating when things that are being worked on (and mentioned) don't work out. So I'll be much more careful in the future with what I share in advance, if anything, because that's how expectations can be raised, and again, things happen and sometimes things have to change.

 

In terms of the 3.x and 5.x thing, if two separate (and pseudo-competing) companies working on this stuff had issues with 5.x, then clearly it's not as simple as just doing it. We will do our best to make it 5.x for next year (it's one of the things on the checklist), but, with the above in mind, obviously, there are no promises.

 

Finally, there are practical limitations for every company, including AtGames. Retailer deadlines must be met, retailer expectations and requests must be met, licensor expectations and requests must be met, etc. We of course try to meet the needs of core retro gamers who demand the best possible product, but that's simply not always possible. Even the companies with the biggest pockets, like a Nintendo, receive criticisms for their Mini products because x game is not 100% perfect (as just one example). Smaller companies with tighter restrictions obviously hear it more because they have fewer resources to deal with issues that crop up.

 

I'm not saying the retro gaming community shouldn't want more, but just because these products happen to have stuff on them or characteristics that they're passionate about, etc., doesn't mean it's being made for them. Whether it's AtGames, Hyperkin, Arcade1Up, Bridge Direct, etc., it's all the same story. You do the best you can for the retro gamer community, but ultimately realize that they'll never be happy, there will always be a vocal group who are angry/displeased/frustrated/don't understand that not everything is for them and their personal needs, etc. That's why companies like the ones mentioned target the wide mass market (and do a great job at it). Sure, that's where most of the money is, but that's also where the products can be enjoyed on their own merits, e.g., is it inexpensive fun as presented rather than does it perfectly replicate the experience I know like the back of my hand as a subject matter expert.

[Flojomojo]

 

in other words,

 

 

I think the AtGames stuff is a lot of fun given the scope (it's a toy!) and the cost (it's cheap!)

[+stephena]

In terms of the 3.x and 5.x thing, if two separate (and pseudo-competing) companies working on this stuff had issues with 5.x, then clearly it's not as simple as just doing it. We will do our best to make it 5.x for next year (it's one of the things on the checklist), but, with the above in mind, obviously, there are no promises.

 

I agree. While I have researched a little and documented what would be required to get Stella 5.x (soon to be 6.0) on these devices, there's more to it than just the research. If this were a project that could be done in a week (or even a month), I would have done it myself already. It requires some dedicated time for the porting, updating the base OS that is on these devices, etc. As well, there are the outside influences like time to market and deadlines, etc. So I can understand why 5.x didn't make it, even though I am disappointed that is the case.

 

That being said, there's no reason why it can't be ready for the 2019 version. 6.0 is due out soon, and someone has even started preliminary work on 6.x running in libretro. There are still several major hurdles to overcome, but I think it can be completed. And while 2018 was probably not enough time, IMHO there's no excuse not to have this for 2019.

 

All of this is my own opinion, of course. I don't have inside knowledge of these companies, their schedules or technical expertise/experience, etc. Just looking at it from the outside, as someone very familiar with the code.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

I agree. While I have researched a little and documented what would be required to get Stella 5.x (soon to be 6.0) on these devices, there's more to it than just the research. If this were a project that could be done in a week (or even a month), I would have done it myself already. It requires some dedicated time for the porting, updating the base OS that is on these devices, etc. As well, there are the outside influences like time to market and deadlines, etc. So I can understand why 5.x didn't make it, even though I am disappointed that is the case.

 

That being said, there's no reason why it can't be ready for the 2019 version. 6.0 is due out soon, and someone has even started preliminary work on 6.x running in libretro. There are still several major hurdles to overcome, but I think it can be completed. And while 2018 was probably not enough time, IMHO there's no excuse not to have this for 2019.

 

All of this is my own opinion, of course. I don't have inside knowledge of these companies, their schedules or technical expertise/experience, etc. Just looking at it from the outside, as someone very familiar with the code.

 

Thanks. Indeed, there may be other factors like needing a bit more horsepower in the hardware too. Time also helps with that.

[Mockduck]

This seems like the first Flashback I'm actually interested in, due to the inclusion of an SD card. I will probably get the Gold 9, but I'm curious what the inclusion of the SD card is all about if it doesn't function similarly to the lovely way it works on the Flashback Portable? I figured it was a matter of getting it working there, then adding it here, but it sounds like that's not the case.