Billy Mitchell TG Banned, Scores Removed

[BiffsGamingVideos]

Unless the low framerate is very consistent, you will mess up. For instance if you go from 60fps to 12fps then back to 60, your timing will not be in sync with the game; it will throw you off and you'll probably lose a life as a result. 5fps with momentary bursts up to 30fps would have a similar effect.

 

Just record at a constant frame rate.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Just record at a constant frame rate.

You might have the game and the recording software synced together. The output file may be silky smooth 720p 60fps but you're going to be experiencing all sorts of dips as you play which will throw off your timing versus a consistent framerate. And forget trying to do commentary as you play.

 

I just play real hardware and point camera at screen, with a sturdy tripod and hufi sound turned up loud.

 

Capturing from an emulator, even on a multicore cpu, is going to trip up your system. Or you could invest in quality hdmi capture device.

[Hydro Thunder]

I just think it's funny that it took so long. I thought the evidence of what happened and the reasons behind it (along with that one judge resigning over what happened) painted a very clear picture in King of Kong; it's amusing to me that these "hardcore" "truth seeking" entities took until now to officially say those garbage video tapes Billy submitted were emulated (and claimed to be done on real hardware).

[Andromeda Stardust]

I just think it's funny that it took so long. I thought the evidence of what happened and the reasons behind it (along with that one judge resigning over what happened) painted a very clear picture in King of Kong; it's amusing to me that these "hardcore" "truth seeking" entities took until now to officially say those garbage video tapes Billy submitted were emulated (and claimed to be done on real hardware).

 

I rewatched my dvd of King of Kong tonight in honor of the event. I always thought it was kind of fishy that the million point video was a direct capture "tate" mode which required direct capture from the arcade board.

 

This would have required modifications of the arcade hardware to capture native rgb and convert it to composite for vhs capture. I believe this would have been against the submissions policy at the time, at least for arcade games.

 

Then the whole random point scores from hammering the barrels which further showed evidence of luck manipulation, proof that Billy Mitchell abused state saving.

 

His arrogance, his refusal to compete live against Steve, it all starts to make sense. I do feel however, that Billy Mitchell's live performances from years gone by should remain, even if all his taped scores got rightfully deleted.

[mr_me]

A score submission requires original hardware. Can you not capture arcade rgb video and still play original hardware. It took recent evidence/analysis to show that it wasn't original hardware. https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800/page19

 

New management at Twin Galaxies probably made a difference as well.

Edited April 15, 2018 by mr_me

[Cynicaster]

I rewatched my dvd of King of Kong tonight in honor of the event. I always thought it was kind of fishy that the million point video was a direct capture "tate" mode which required direct capture from the arcade board.

 

This would have required modifications of the arcade hardware to capture native rgb and convert it to composite for vhs capture. I believe this would have been against the submissions policy at the time, at least for arcade games.

 

Then the whole random point scores from hammering the barrels which further showed evidence of luck manipulation, proof that Billy Mitchell abused state saving.

 

His arrogance, his refusal to compete live against Steve, it all starts to make sense. I do feel however, that Billy Mitchell's live performances from years gone by should remain, even if all his taped scores got rightfully deleted.

 

And then there is the small problem that his "direct feed" videos lack sound. MAME sound effects are noticeably different from arcade, so... how convenient that the sound isn't there to analyze.

 

His claim is that he used direct feed because "cameras are easy to knock down" or some such nonsense. C'maaaaan.

 

One interesting point that a former TG ref has made repeatedly is that he was present at the ACAM event where the infamous "tape" was played to steal Steve's thunder, and at the time, Billy's instructions were to simply show the tape "just for fun" and to not count it as an official score submission. Apparently Walter Day took it upon himself to enter the score into the database as a real submission (it was later removed).

 

Billy's tapes are obviously MAME fakery but I'm still not clear on exactly how they would have been made. The theory is that he did a save-state run to build up the correct score pace, recorded an INP file, then played back the INP file into a VCR to record it. I'm not really clear on if this is how save states and INP files work. Specifically, when you're recording an INP, does it stop at the save-state points and re-write the parts that are done over again? I don't feel this question was satisfactorily answered in the TG thread, and I'm surprised more people weren't curious.

 

It seems like executing those fakes would take some know-how, and by all accounts Billy is not very computer/MAME savvy. What I'm getting at is, it almost makes me wonder if the KoK crew created the tapes--or at least facilitated their creation--to amp up drama in the film. I have no direct evidence to support this of course, but I really think Billy would need somebody else's help to make those tapes.

[+x=usr(1536)]

Billy's tapes are obviously MAME fakery but I'm still not clear on exactly how they would have been made. The theory is that he did a save-state run to build up the correct score pace, recorded an INP file, then played back the INP file into a VCR to record it. I'm not really clear on if this is how save states and INP files work. Specifically, when you're recording an INP, does it stop at the save-state points and re-write the parts that are done over again? I don't feel this question was satisfactorily answered in the TG thread, and I'm surprised more people weren't curious.

 

Re: recording INP files and generating save states: that's mostly correct. Let me see if I can clarify this.

 

One thing that needs to be understood up front: INP files and save states are independent of each other; one can exist and be used without the other being required for it to be used. They can also be used in combination, but that brings up some considerations I'll come to shortly.

 

Starting MAME with the -record option will record all inputs sent to the game; starting it with the -playback option will feed inputs stored in an INP file to it. Fuller explanations of these options can be found here.

 

Save states are different in that they can be generated or loaded at any point while the game is running. Press F7 to load a save state; press Shift-F7 to generate a save state (more info here). There's some trickier stuff that can be done with save states, such as rewinding them frame-by-frame and restarting game playback (and save state capture) from an earlier point in time, but for the sake of clarity I'll keep to the basics for now.

 

What this means is that you could record an INP file of gameplay, reach a difficult part of the game, generate a save state, and stop recording the INP at the same point as the save state is generated. You now have two things: a save state that can get you immediately to the point that you need to practice on, as well as an INP file that can feed inputs to the emulator up to that point, making it appear as though a human is playing the game.

 

With both of those in hand, you can then fire up MAME, loading the save state at launch and also recording an INP file of that particular session. The idea at this point is to play until you can get through the difficult part, generating a separate INP file from the start of that part of the performance. Any failed attempt can simply have its INP file discarded, the save state reloaded, a new INP file generated, and the process repeated until gameplay is satisfactorily recorded.

 

So let's say that you now have an INP file of just your gameplay through the difficult part. This is where it's possible to make it appear as though multiple games have been played as a single performance. You'll need to be meticulous in how this is done in order for it to work properly, but it is possible.

 

You've probably seen reference to 'stitching' INP files together. It's pretty much what it sounds like: joining two INP files generated in two different sessions together in such a way that, when played back as a single file from the point of emulator startup, they show what appears to be a single session's worth of human gameplay. If you've been careful about managing your save states (e.g., always starting MAME with a save state loaded that was generated from one 'master' save state), all of the gameplay should match up as random number generators, etc. will remain consistent across emulator launches.

 

At that point, all that remains to do is to play back your 'perfect' INP file with the appropriate save state loaded and record the video output directly to tape. If done correctly, at this point you should now have a recording that is - for all intents and purposes - virtually indistinguishable from a single gameplay session.

 

This really only works for games that are relatively deterministic; ones with higher degrees of randomness in their gameplay typically don't work as well if at all. But for many games it can be done and surprisingly effectively. Also, I'm referring to the present behaviour of MAME in the above regards. While the techniques I'm describing aren't new and certainly existed around the time that the disputed scores were submitted, MAME was a significantly different piece of software at that time and as such the approaches outlined above may not accurately reflect how MAME would have behaved at that time.

 

Note that I am not saying that this is absolutely what happened in Billy Mitchell's case - I just don't know what specifically happened there, so tend to align myself with TG's view that while he may not have been playing on a stock, unmodified Donkey Kong PCB, that doesn't automatically mean that the video of his disputed runs was unequivocally generated in MAME. However, there do appear to be a number of gameplay behaviours shown in his gameplay tapes that match behaviours found in MAME, so completely discarding the possibility of MAME gameplay would not be prudent.

 

It seems like executing those fakes would take some know-how, and by all accounts Billy is not very computer/MAME savvy. What I'm getting at is, it almost makes me wonder if the KoK crew created the tapes--or at least facilitated their creation--to amp up drama in the film. I have no direct evidence to support this of course, but I really think Billy would need somebody else's help to make those tapes.

 

As far as that goes, I have no idea. Unless someone came forward and said, "yep, that's exactly what I / we did," I don't know that there's any good way to prove culpability one way or the other. However, mechanisms certainly exist(ed) by which it could have been accomplished.

[davidbrit2]

I rewatched my dvd of King of Kong tonight in honor of the event. I always thought it was kind of fishy that the million point video was a direct capture "tate" mode which required direct capture from the arcade board.

This would have required modifications of the arcade hardware to capture native rgb and convert it to composite for vhs capture. I believe this would have been against the submissions policy at the time, at least for arcade games.

 

A score submission requires original hardware. Can you not capture arcade rgb video and still play original hardware. It took recent evidence/analysis to show that it wasn't original hardware. https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800/page19

New management at Twin Galaxies probably made a difference as well.

I saw a bit of discussion about this on the DK forums when all of this started coming under more public scrutiny. There's something weird about the RGB feed from DK boards that requires more work to get to a usable NTSC signal compared to other arcade hardware. I think there's only like one guy with an actual DK direct feed setup that's been verified and accepted by TG, and it's definitely not Billy.

 

There were a number of rather damning pieces of evidence from Billy's tapes:

 

1. Board transitions not matching arcade hardware. (MAME blits the whole frame buffer at once, as opposed to the arcade hardware continuously scanning the buffer even while the CPU is building the background tiles. Both create different rendering artifacts.)

2. Points awarded for smashing blue barrels (and other objects with variable point values) were way above what would be expected from a random distribution. This suggests there may have been some kind of RNG manipulation going on via emulator save states and rewinds.

3. The "1UP" flash irregularities, suggesting the use of some kind of video splicing.

4. It appears to be a direct-feed video, and nobody had a direct feed setup at the time (or at least Billy didn't).

[mr_me]

 

Re: recording INP files and generating save states: that's mostly correct. Let me see if I can clarify this.

 

One thing that needs to be understood up front: INP files and save states are independent of each other; one can exist and be used without the other being required for it to be used. They can also be used in combination, but that brings up some considerations I'll come to shortly.

 

Starting MAME with the -record option will record all inputs sent to the game; starting it with the -playback option will feed inputs stored in an INP file to it. Fuller explanations of these options can be found here.

 

Save states are different in that they can be generated or loaded at any point while the game is running. Press F7 to load a save state; press Shift-F7 to generate a save state (more info here). There's some trickier stuff that can be done with save states, such as rewinding them frame-by-frame and restarting game playback (and save state capture) from an earlier point in time, but for the sake of clarity I'll keep to the basics for now.

 

What this means is that you could record an INP file of gameplay, reach a difficult part of the game, generate a save state, and stop recording the INP at the same point as the save state is generated. You now have two things: a save state that can get you immediately to the point that you need to practice on, as well as an INP file that can feed inputs to the emulator up to that point, making it appear as though a human is playing the game.

 

With both of those in hand, you can then fire up MAME, loading the save state at launch and also recording an INP file of that particular session. The idea at this point is to play until you can get through the difficult part, generating a separate INP file from the start of that part of the performance. Any failed attempt can simply have its INP file discarded, the save state reloaded, a new INP file generated, and the process repeated until gameplay is satisfactorily recorded.

 

So let's say that you now have an INP file of just your gameplay through the difficult part. This is where it's possible to make it appear as though multiple games have been played as a single performance. You'll need to be meticulous in how this is done in order for it to work properly, but it is possible.

 

You've probably seen reference to 'stitching' INP files together. It's pretty much what it sounds like: joining two INP files generated in two different sessions together in such a way that, when played back as a single file from the point of emulator startup, they show what appears to be a single session's worth of human gameplay. If you've been careful about managing your save states (e.g., always starting MAME with a save state loaded that was generated from one 'master' save state), all of the gameplay should match up as random number generators, etc. will remain consistent across emulator launches.

 

At that point, all that remains to do is to play back your 'perfect' INP file with the appropriate save state loaded and record the video output directly to tape. If done correctly, at this point you should now have a recording that is - for all intents and purposes - virtually indistinguishable from a single gameplay session.

 

This really only works for games that are relatively deterministic; ones with higher degrees of randomness in their gameplay typically don't work as well if at all. But for many games it can be done and surprisingly effectively. Also, I'm referring to the present behaviour of MAME in the above regards. While the techniques I'm describing aren't new and certainly existed around the time that the disputed scores were submitted, MAME was a significantly different piece of software at that time and as such the approaches outlined above may not accurately reflect how MAME would have behaved at that time.

 

Note that I am not saying that this is absolutely what happened in Billy Mitchell's case - I just don't know what specifically happened there, so tend to align myself with TG's view that while he may not have been playing on a stock, unmodified Donkey Kong PCB, that doesn't automatically mean that the video of his disputed runs was unequivocally generated in MAME. However, there do appear to be a number of gameplay behaviours shown in his gameplay tapes that match behaviours found in MAME, so completely discarding the possibility of MAME gameplay would not be prudent.

 

 

As far as that goes, I have no idea. Unless someone came forward and said, "yep, that's exactly what I / we did," I don't know that there's any good way to prove culpability one way or the other. However, mechanisms certainly exist(ed) by which it could have been accomplished.

Doesn't Donkey Kong have randomness. Shouldn't randomness make an INP useless for replay. For example an INP of Pac-man should work right through to the kill screen. But an INP of Ms Pac-man should fail on the first stage.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Doesn't Donkey Kong have randomness. Shouldn't randomness make an INP useless for replay. For example an INP of Pac-man should work right through to the kill screen. But an INP of Ms Pac-man should fail on the first stage.

Arcade and console games aren't as truly "random" as people would believe. When the game is initialized, all memory and registers are cleared to a default state. From this moment forward, every user input provided to the system has an effect on memory registers. Randomization algorithms are often either timing or input based. User inputs impact the seed value for the randomization algorithm, causing the end result to be different every time. No human can provide the exact same set of inputs to a machine every time he or she plays, so the "random" algorithm will appear different every time. However, an emulator (or a real console with a microcontroller feeding it a prerecorded stream of inputs) can record and replay an exact unique set of inputs to a machine which will yield the exact same output every time. So the randomization algorithm can be fooled with the use of prerecorded inputs in tandem with save states to replay an event until it yields the desired outcome. By abusing save states, it is possible for instance to achieve the 800 point bonus every time a blue barrel is hit with the hammer by manipulating the controller inputs prior to hitting it. It's essentially the equivalent of playing a casino game with loaded dice as you can always dictate the outcome in your favor. Just rewind time if you don't get the desired effect. You could roll a die 6 different times with six different outcomes. Save whenever it lands a six, otherwise restore and try again. This is a major reason why simulation is not allowed, aside from the fact there's no guarantee a simulation will always behave exactly the same as real hardware. Many times, as in the loading of stages (which proved he used MAME instead of real hardware), the simulation does not represent an exact match to original eqipment.

[tep392]

I tend to go with the simplest theory. The input file/save state technique is pretty complicated and tedious. He's good enough to play thru to the kill screen, so he really just needed some help with the odds on the points. It would be pretty easy to hack the ROM to improve the odds. It would really only take a few bytes of code changes. I'm no pro coder, but I could do it. For either method to happen, I'm guessing he would have needed help, so there is probably some others involved in the scam.

 

I also wonder if it couldn't be hacked to reduce the odds of barrels and firefoxes going down the ladders. I saw lots of times in his video were he did risky moves going up ladders when there was a firefox moving across the top. Almost like he knew they wouldn't go down. The logic uses probablility so there is no way to know.

 

I checked out the current champs 1.2M game and he really is much better than Billy at generating points on the barrel screen. He has amazing reflexes.

[VectorGamer]

This video was made at MGC this past weekend

 

 

Richie Knucklez said he was going to do an interview from MGC but I don't see that posted.

[Inky]

I've met Billy MItchell a few times. He's always been a very good guy to me. That out of the way, I really don't know what to make of the situation, as the technical stuff is over my head. I do know that everyone someone looks up to or has pleasant interactions with will always disappoint in some regard, to varying degrees. If it's proven that he did or didn't cheat, I think either situation wouldn't surprise me.

That's about all I really think on this situation at the moment. We will be discussing this further on Pie Factory at some point in the near future.

[Great Hierophant]

The statement, like Billy's previous interviews this year, is totally devoid of any meaningful response to the claims made against him. He talks about the previous 35 years as if there is some concrete proof that will vindicate him. No mention is made of the Donkey Kong controversy that called those 35 years of gaming history into question in the first place. Of course, his personally-picked expert provided the final nail in his coffin on that issue. When trying to prove past accomplishments from decades ago, all sorts of things happen, people die or suffer from fading memories, documentary evidence turns out to be ambiguous, videotapes disappear or get wiped.

 

The statement links to a site regarding a magazine I have never heard of before, https://www.oldschoolgamermagazine.com/. The site's owner is a friend of Billy's and Walter Day's, both of whom serve on the "advisory board." One can hardly expect neutral, unbiased reporting from that source. The only thing I did take away from Mitchell's statement is his apparent disapproval of the Twin Galaxies "new guard". Maybe he will set up an alternative high-score record keeping organization, where his and his buddy Todd Rogers scores can find a welcoming home.

[Cynicaster]

I've met Billy MItchell a few times. He's always been a very good guy to me. That out of the way, I really don't know what to make of the situation, as the technical stuff is over my head. I do know that everyone someone looks up to or has pleasant interactions with will always disappoint in some regard, to varying degrees. If it's proven that he did or didn't cheat, I think either situation wouldn't surprise me.

 

That's about all I really think on this situation at the moment. We will be discussing this further on Pie Factory at some point in the near future.

 

The "technical stuff" seems overwhelming because it was so thoroughly picked apart, but the crux of it is really quite simple: arcade hardware renders screens one way, MAME renders screens a different way, all taped evidence exhibits the MAME look, nobody can replicate the MAME-like rendering artifacts using real arcade hardware. That's it, really.

 

I'm normally fine with letting people slide on the "nobody's perfect, everybody makes mistakes" angle, but in this instance that doesn't work for me because the "mistake" in question happens to completely undermine the entire reason why people even know Billy Mitchell's name.

 

I get that there is more to Billy Mitchell than high scores on decades-old video games; it takes more than just that to be worthy of all-expenses-paid invites to conventions, etc. But the fact remains, the bedrock of his "small time celebrity" status is a very specific premise; namely, that he was a world record caliber player in Donkey Kong in the early 2000s, and his story was told in a cult film on that subject.

 

We now know that his relevance in that narrative is based on fraudulent achievements. Not only that, but his antics amounted to actively stealing recognition from other players who were running themselves ragged trying to put up legitimate world record scores. So, the crime was not victimless, IMO.

 

Of course, I'm not trying to encourage anybody to hate the guy or whatever... just giving my $0.02.

 

I can't believe there are still people leaving the door open for the possibility that TG's conclusions will someday be proven incorrect. That's ridiculous; there is absolutely zero wiggle room here. Billy will no doubt try to use his "charisma" to deflect responsibility, but from a pure evidence standpoint, it's game over--the end.

 

I had a good laugh when I saw a guy over in the TG thread use the term "Billy earthers" to describe the people who are still in denial about the reality of the situation. Of course, that's a play on the term "flat earthers," and the connection is very apt, because Billy's cheating and the globe shape of our planet are known with approximately equal certitude. Still, some people cling to what they prefer to be true rather than what is demonstrated as such.

[rjchamp3]

Glad to see Rogers and Mitchell gone but it does not fix others losses over the years!!!!!!!!!

It also is not fixing the losers and wannabees there now either!!!!!!!!

[Crimefighter]

The nasty rhetoric against Mitchell is WAY WAY over the top...some idiot who had a flaming hot poker jammed up his rear claimed he was gonna boycott Midwest Gaming Classic cause Mitchell was booked there.

[Crimefighter]

His reputation is currently in the stocks with a noose around it. Twin Galaxies (and by proxy Guinness) wiping his scores basically is the equivalent of a masked man pulling the lever.

 

There is no reason for criminal court to get involved. His reputation is dead which means justice has been served. He'll wear a scarlett letter on his chest and will be publicly shamed and mocked if he ever steps foot in an arcade or expo again.

 

Lying isn't a crime because he was never under oath while doing it. However, cheating at a video game could be considered fraud if a cash prize were paid to the winner. Also it can be argued that if his high score fame led to commercial endorsements (ie Lance Armstrong being paid royalties for his likeness featured on a Weaties box), then he could be sued in civil court and required to pay back all or part of the endorsement money.

 

However I do not believe there is anything to actually convict him of. They are after all just video games.

 

Ahem, nope! Sure didn't look like his rep was destroyed as he was there for the entire Midwest Gaming Classic just this past weekend. Took pics and had a DVD autographed by him and Walter Day.

[Lendorien]

I feel like this outcome is something that is a natural result of Jace Hall's attempt to turn the revived Twin Galaxies into a world E-sport leader. TG has had no end of shenanigans over the years. Even before Todd Rogers was finally and completely outed as a cheat, there were allegations of cronyism in the Adjudicating. The fact that Rogers had so many bogus records that were approved by the PTB of Twin Galaxies of the time is proof of that.

 

So if Hall is to make Twin Galaxies into a serious organization, reforms have to be made. I sense that the efforts are sincere and aimed at creating credibility for the organization. If Hall is to succeed in his quest with Twin Galaxies, he has to convince the community that there is integrity in what they do.

 

Throwing Rogers out completely was a positive and necessary first step.

 

Moving to Mitchell... Given the serious questions as to the source of Mitchell's gameplay videos and the inconsistency in his explanations, I think TG did the right thing. I feel like they did their due diligence in researching the matter and don't fault them in their decision.

 

Frankly, it raises my opinion of TG because they DID make the hard decision to toss out someone because they cheated. Here's hoping they keep working on tossing out other bogus records.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Lendorien

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'm curious if Billy Mitchell's older live scores still count for something since they were done on verified hardware in front of a live audience? I think those should remain, even with the stink surrounding his taped submissions being rightfully deleted.

[VectorGamer]

I'm curious if Billy Mitchell's older live scores still count for something since they were done on verified hardware in front of a live audience?

 

Where? He got the boot from both TG and Guinness.

[rjchamp3]

Twingalaxies is also planning on yanking all scores before the video adjudication system too, IF that happens it's all over!!!! The fact is doing the right thing on two players, allowing others that have been proven cheaters for years in private archived forums that are about to be released makes no sense.

 

I will say this the problem is the owner is a man child and several who get on their knees are well protected at his service, and sadly he don't care about the real players, he milked Rogers for the hype because they had no traffic and the same with Mitchell and just recently the same with me.

 

The difference is nearing 40 knowing the money and promises will never be delivered, it was like if your gonna ban someone for 6 months over something 3rd party that cannot even be proved, than what does it say about you?

 

So after a 6 month ban I basically said enough, I still play set records it don't change the facts and Guinness wants nothing to do with Twingalaxies or Jace Hall, this is why David Hawksett was hired.

 

Next they will probably Target RTM, unlike Billy, Walter, Joel and Todd, RTM admits he is not innocent.

 

Wiebe is being made out to be a saint when in fact he is not in the least, the man cheated too, so it's all a mess!!!!

 

In recent events I had 2 scores removed not for cheating but because I am no longer on Twitch the videos I sent were gone, mind you they are the SAME videos on Youtube lol, so because Mr. Clean wants our videos directly uploaded for gain and hits, we get a score booted if we don't......

 

Crazy huh?

 

Yet Rodrigo Lopez admitted and was caught for cheating by refs, Patterson was, and so many others....

 

What really does upset me are my cowardly friends using riding Walter, Joel, Billy and Todd at events for publicity, I did it when I thought they were great people and somebodies THAN.

 

Yet Richie, my co host josh, Mike Sroka and others still do, utterly gross...

[Greg2600]

Twingalaxies is also planning on yanking all scores before the video adjudication system too, IF that happens it's all over!!!! The fact is doing the right thing on two players, allowing others that have been proven cheaters for years in private archived forums that are about to be released makes no sense.

 

I will say this the problem is the owner is a man child and several who get on their knees are well protected at his service, and sadly he don't care about the real players, he milked Rogers for the hype because they had no traffic and the same with Mitchell and just recently the same with me.

 

The difference is nearing 40 knowing the money and promises will never be delivered, it was like if your gonna ban someone for 6 months over something 3rd party that cannot even be proved, than what does it say about you?

 

So after a 6 month ban I basically said enough, I still play set records it don't change the facts and Guinness wants nothing to do with Twingalaxies or Jace Hall, this is why David Hawksett was hired.

 

Next they will probably Target RTM, unlike Billy, Walter, Joel and Todd, RTM admits he is not innocent.

 

Wiebe is being made out to be a saint when in fact he is not in the least, the man cheated too, so it's all a mess!!!!

 

In recent events I had 2 scores removed not for cheating but because I am no longer on Twitch the videos I sent were gone, mind you they are the SAME videos on Youtube lol, so because Mr. Clean wants our videos directly uploaded for gain and hits, we get a score booted if we don't......

 

Crazy huh?

 

Yet Rodrigo Lopez admitted and was caught for cheating by refs, Patterson was, and so many others....

 

What really does upset me are my cowardly friends using riding Walter, Joel, Billy and Todd at events for publicity, I did it when I thought they were great people and somebodies THAN.

 

Yet Richie, my co host josh, Mike Sroka and others still do, utterly gross...

 

Jace is a FOOL. Anything on TG at least 15 years old is of question. But that was the era. If you remove them, then WHY are you calling it Twin Galaxies???? If nothing else, why not retire the old scores, and start new from some point in time? To say well there's not enough valid evidence for the old stuff is plain absurd. Do you think MLB has concrete evidence for all of their games before WWI?? The answer is no, but the records are still there.

[rjchamp3]

 

Jace is a FOOL. Anything on TG at least 15 years old is of question. But that was the era. If you remove them, then WHY are you calling it Twin Galaxies???? If nothing else, why not retire the old scores, and start new from some point in time? To say well there's not enough valid evidence for the old stuff is plain absurd. Do you think MLB has concrete evidence for all of their games before WWI?? The answer is no, but the records are still there.

The difference is Idiots like Jace and Walter and others NEVER ran a fair sport type organization, with money TV etc, had they done that properly, it would have been fine, unlike MLB etc Twingalaxies used favortism and bias in games and events, instead of doing ALL-AROUND gaming like other sports.

 

Even if you say well it's not a sport and shouldn't be considered, well many do and work hard for their accomplishments, had some of us really knew that it never would have gotten where it could have and should have, many of us never would have played.

 

I never minded working and always have very hard all my life but, it would have been nice for real gamers unlike the puppets to get paid and events etc, like for an example stars do at conventions, many of us had looks, skills and history to bring to the table, the problem was,many of us were hidden for their own agenda's it was never equal or done correctly.....

 

Sadly it will prob never be done right!!!

[rjchamp3]

Good point about the games and records before WWII and Television etc....