Billy Mitchell TG Banned, Scores Removed

[Matt_B]

Yeah, Billy has won the right for himself to sit alongside all the other known cheaters in a monument to what TG used to be like before the current owner took it over and instituted some standards. 😄

 

Only in his warped mind could that ever constitute some form of victory to be claimed.

[negative1]

more discussion about the legal issue:

 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2024/01/twin-galaxies-lawyer-settlement-with-billy-mitchell-was-a-business-decision/

 

later

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neg ative 1

[Thomas Jentzsch]

17 hours ago, Goochman said:

Further:

Mitchell's scores appear on "The Original TG Historical Database," a newly created section of the site that serves as a "historical archive of the original score database, copied verbatim from the system obtained during Twin Galaxies' acquisition in 2014." That "unmodified, legacy snapshot preserv[es] performances and achievements predating the current TG ownership and modern adjudication protocols," Twin Galaxies writes.

Effectively this means, that his lies are now documented by TG.  

[Goochman]

Exactly - Billy is in bigger trouble with his lawsuit with Karl - apparently he cant back out of it without paying Karl's legal fees which he'll have to do if he loses as well.  That could be the nail in his coffin.

[Matt_B]

Yeah, the tactic of running up the other person's legal bill doesn't work quite so well in Australia.

 

That said, even if Jobst makes a successful claim for costs, he might have a hard time getting the money from Mitchell so I wouldn't be surprised if he tries that anyway.

[Crimefighter]

On 1/16/2024 at 1:12 PM, Greg2600 said:

I don't have a problem with it, but then again, I felt the entire thing was ridiculous from the get go.  Not for nothing, Billy doesn't hold ANY records anymore nor will he ever, correct?  The Donkey Kong scores have been surpassed multiple times anyway. 

 

 

He currently still has the first maximum Pac-man score on original hardware, and the Class of 81 Pac-man score achieved at Galloping Ghost (and witnessed in person).  His scores are accepted on Aurcade.

[negative1]

several discussions about the case against karl jobst:

 

he will not be able to settle in australia, bills are about $40k per month:

 

 

 

 

 

 

later

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[Razzie.P]

On 1/16/2024 at 2:12 PM, Greg2600 said:

I don't have a problem with it, but then again, I felt the entire thing was ridiculous from the get go.  Not for nothing, Billy doesn't hold ANY records anymore nor will he ever, correct?  The Donkey Kong scores have been surpassed multiple times anyway. 

 

Not surprised with the legal settlement either, as Twin Galaxies' "canceling" of his slate of scores was quite subjective, and again, I wouldn't trust 90% of what was on there to begin with, for anybody.  Anything without an in person referee can never be truly verified, and good Heavens anything done in the 80s and 90s, merely on video tape or worse, a polaroid?  Most of what Walter used to post were completely made up, like ol' Steve Saunders.  I said the new TG board should have just changed the requirements for verification, without singling out Mitchell, and made the old stuff "non-canon."

 

Not disagreeing with anything you said there, but I also thought very little of the "referee verification" records.  That's pretty much the reason I stop submitting scores, really, even though I enjoyed it quite a bit.  It was a bit of a bummer to see maxed out scores that couldn't be done within the confines of a game's rules be "verified" in secret by a referee that just so happened to be the player's roommate.  🙄  And no video proof, no other witnesses, just player, roommate/ref, and a "I'll tell everyone how I did it soon" promise (that was years ago and still no explanation, of course)

 

I do like the idea of how they do things now -- or at least how I think they do things now -- video and all other players get to review for legitimacy, it seems.  Could be wrong, but that seems to be the way it is.

[Greg2600]

10 hours ago, Razzie.P said:

 

Not disagreeing with anything you said there, but I also thought very little of the "referee verification" records.  That's pretty much the reason I stop submitting scores, really, even though I enjoyed it quite a bit.  It was a bit of a bummer to see maxed out scores that couldn't be done within the confines of a game's rules be "verified" in secret by a referee that just so happened to be the player's roommate.  🙄  And no video proof, no other witnesses, just player, roommate/ref, and a "I'll tell everyone how I did it soon" promise (that was years ago and still no explanation, of course)

 

I do like the idea of how they do things now -- or at least how I think they do things now -- video and all other players get to review for legitimacy, it seems.  Could be wrong, but that seems to be the way it is.

Yes, technology has existed for I'd say 15+ years to easily submit scores that can be verified in a reasonable manner.  I certainly hate to just throw all the records out with the dish water, either, but as I said I don't see how you can verify what's likely thousands of submissions over a 40 year period!

[Matt_B]

Even if the era of uploading recording is relatively new, we always had the technology to do something. Consumer video cameras were already a thing when Twin Galaxies opened, and they became pretty mainstream during the 1980s. It wouldn't have been that difficult to have required aspiring record holders to get an attempt recorded and submit the tape by post. Many of the records that we can still trust are the ones that were recorded at public events, after all.

 

They just chose to keep it a club where the members got to verify each others scores and never even made an attempt to adopt a technological solution for thirty years.

[Greg2600]

2 hours ago, Matt_B said:

Even if the era of uploading recording is relatively new, we always had the technology to do something. Consumer video cameras were already a thing when Twin Galaxies opened, and they became pretty mainstream during the 1980s. It wouldn't have been that difficult to have required aspiring record holders to get an attempt recorded and submit the tape by post. Many of the records that we can still trust are the ones that were recorded at public events, after all.

 

They just chose to keep it a club where the members got to verify each others scores and never even made an attempt to adopt a technological solution for thirty years.

Have you seen the original/screener version of Chasing Ghosts?  Robert Mruczek's NYC apartment was overrun by video tapes from submissions.  It was a daunting operation for any "referee" but it was done that way I think going back to some point in the 90s.  However, even if submissions were done on video, there's still no way to independently verify that the hardware was unaltered.  Mitchell's MAME snafu was discovered based on quite an undertaking in gaming forensics that just doesn't make sense for all cases.  I'm sure there's still ways to cheat now.  At some point, you kind of have to bring some degree of honor into that.  Polaroids were not a terrible way of verifying a score back in the 80s, weren't many teenagers going through the trouble to doctor one of those!  However, my point was how many records don't even have that?  Walter Day accepted "records" without any verification for years. 

 

In terms of it being a club, well, AtariAge was a club, most video game on-line communities were such.  I'm not defending them, but we're talking about a past-time that has zero money in it to be made.  Billy Mitchell and his buddies have been the only ones who've ever parlayed that hobby into any kind of financial benefit, and it turned out they were better at that than actually playing games!  However, I think that is where the real scandal was with TG, in that they had complete arbitrary control on what to even accept.  I do wish the new owners continued luck though, after all, it's not a money-making past-time, it's supposed to just be for fun.

[davyK]

For classic arcade games - to set a high score it has to be independently witnessed at an event recognised by TG. It's the only way.

 

Throw any non event witnessed score in the bin. Or at least have them in a "best score" category for historic reasons with official high scores being the genuine article.

 

Even with best intentions and I'd say old TG had the best of them, it simply isn't feasible to do it any other way. Now that there's room for doubt with the Todd Rogers Dragster time analysis in emulators and the Mitchell DK MAME presentation then it can't be done any other way.

Edited January 30 by davyK

[GiygasKaz]

TG making a "historical database" to shut him up and then releasing merch to make fun of him has to be the funniest outcome possible in this situation. The fact that he believes he won in all of this is just the icing on the cake.

[Greg2600]

On 1/30/2024 at 11:02 AM, davyK said:

For classic arcade games - to set a high score it has to be independently witnessed at an event recognised by TG. It's the only way.

 

Throw any non event witnessed score in the bin. Or at least have them in a "best score" category for historic reasons with official high scores being the genuine article.

 

Even with best intentions and I'd say old TG had the best of them, it simply isn't feasible to do it any other way. Now that there's room for doubt with the Todd Rogers Dragster time analysis in emulators and the Mitchell DK MAME presentation then it can't be done any other way.

Correct, I mean, they only "count" World Records in various sports when held at official World Championship or Olympic events. 

[SUPER STREET FIGHTER II TURBO]

Kudos to the lawyers on a creative settlement that got each side what was most important to them.

 

TG gets to stand firm on their belief Billy didn't play on arcade hardware.

 

Billy gets to claim his scores were reinstated.

 

Those who follow this stuff closely know Billy isn't back on the leaderboard, but he got his wave of PR saying "scores reinstated," which is enough for him to save some face.

 

Curious to see how all of this is portrayed when The King of Kong 2 is eventually released.