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Billy Mitchell TG Banned, Scores Removed

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11 hours ago, onemoretime said:

I guess he has the right to sue for defamation,

 

Oh he has the right, but there is no chance he could win. There was more than enough evidence to take his records down. He is a public figure and made himself such willingly. Meaning he has to meet and much much higher standard of proof to argue defamation, as compared to you or I (assuming none of you are secret celebs or something). 

 

I understand why Billy is doing this perfectly. He is a text-book narcissist. 

 

When one is caught cheating in the Olympics do they just take the one medal or all of them? Just seems to me that once a person is a known cheat having them around at all is a problem.

Edited by HatefulGravey
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17 minutes ago, HatefulGravey said:

 

Oh he has the right, but there is no chance he could win. There was more than enough evidence to take his records down. He is a public figure and made himself such willingly. Meaning he has to meet and much much higher standard of proof to argue defamation, as compared to you or I (assuming none of you are secret celebs or something). 

 

I understand why Billy is doing this perfectly. He is a text-book narcissist. 

 

When one is caught cheating in the Olympics do they just take the one medal or all of them? Just seems to me that once a person is a known cheat having them around at all is a problem.

Oh, I m sure he wouldn't win. I was more curious if his inclusion lawsuit is something that can be taken to court?

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14 minutes ago, onemoretime said:

I was more curious if his inclusion lawsuit is something that can be taken to court?

I'm not an attorney, just interested in law. From what I understand you can sue damn near anyone for damn near anything. The judge can throw your case out as soon as you start talking, too. You pay the court costs and they'll let you make almost any civil case at least once. 

 

EDIT: Does anyone know where the case is being tried? If Billy is still in Florida I assume there, but it doesn't have to be.  Never mind, he is just threatening to sue, not actually doing it yet.

Edited by HatefulGravey

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13 hours ago, HatefulGravey said:

...

 

When one is caught cheating in the Olympics do they just take the one medal or all of them? Just seems to me that once a person is a known cheat having them around at all is a problem.

In the olympics they only take away the medals where they have evidence of cheating.  Ben Johnson still has bronze medals from 1984 and his times from before seoul 1988 and after he was reinstated still stand.

 

I would not wipe out any scores Billy Mitchell legitimately achieved.  It would not be fair to other competitors.

 

Edit:

You can still see his legitimate scores here.

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=366.0

Edited by mr_me
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1 hour ago, mr_me said:

In the olympics they only take away the medals where they have evidence of cheating.  Ben Johnson still has bronze medals from 1984 and his times from before seoul 1988 and after he was reinstated still stand.

 

I would not wipe out any scores Billy Mitchell legitimately achieved.  It would not be fair to other competitors.

 

Edit:

You can still see his legitimate scores here.

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=366.0

I think this is determined on a case by case basis.

 

When an athlete is accused of doping, all records are suspect. In the Billy Mitchel case, he used MAME to submit a single bogus score for Donkey Kong, and likely had help doing it from the producers of King of Kong.

 

There was probably a lot of pressure to top one million points as well.

 

Where he screwed up, was when Walter Day, with a confused look upon his face, asked if this was a serious submission.

 

Personally I believe only the user submitted scores should have been deleted in this case, and live ones remain, but they made the decision to remove all of them. If anyone is interested, old scores still exist.

 

Mame is fine for a training tool, but you cannot use it in competition. It's akin to a golfer using a specific non-regulation club on the practice green.

 

Steve Weibe had his first 100000+ score disqualified for using an 8-way joystick. Had nothing to do with the mysterious "box" in the garage from Mr Awesome as the movie suggests, but I digress. That's Hollywood.

 

So while Steve had a single score disqualified (which sucks but was fair IMO if the hardware did not meet criteria) Billy's stunt was more of a deliberate act.

 

Had he not been cocky, said "this is for entertainment, not an official sub" after the screening was over, he would still be on good standing.

 

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Using MAME itself is not cheating.  It's against the rules so it can disqualify your score.  In Billy Mitchell's case he was accused of using save states to artificially inflate his score.  That's cheating.

 

Steve Wiebe use of an 8-way joystick is also cheating because the diagonals can influence barrel movement.  He was also disqualified for using a donkey kong jr board which is against the rules but not cheating.

 

Edit:

Scores done in mame or DKJr boards aren't typically disqualified, they are categorized.

Edited by mr_me
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On 9/13/2019 at 7:46 AM, onemoretime said:

Kind of a hard to wrap my mind around. I don t know how it is everywhere else, but in Texas, a private business has the right to refuse service to anyone. Here s the thing... Twin Galaxy more or less proclaimed to be the public authority on high scores, but I m not certain that it matters. I can claim that I m the upmost authority on Genghis Kahn, but that doesn't mean that historians have to fact check their information through me first. Nor does it mean that someone that has information contradicting my own has the personal right to post it on my fictional King of Hun website. I guess he has the right to sue for defamation, but certainly not inclusion. Or am I missing something?

The issue is that TG and Guinness World Records are part of the Free Press and are given protections under the 1st Amendment, so they can list whoever they want as record-holders.

 Sue for defamation is very hard if you are a PUBLIC Figure or Famous, especially if its on a opinion, in this case that he is the world record holder and isn't a cheater on a video-game

 

Believe the Judge will Summary Judgement if there is a actual lawsuit

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5 hours ago, enoofu said:

The issue is that TG and Guinness World Records are part of the Free Press and are given protections under the 1st Amendment, so they can list whoever they want as record-holders.

The 1st Amendment's freedom of press is about not being prosecuted for political speech.  It does not shield you from tort due to libel or slander, and many lawsuits over the years have indeed succeeded.  That's why these days they'll talk about the alleged criminal, even after convicted.  Or they qualify statements with "Police say..." or simply stick to the indisputable facts, as in "convicted felon".

 

More specific to Mitchel's case, they can simply point to the fact that the system in the video he submitted showed the characteristics of MAME, not of a native arcade. If it weren't for that, then yes, he could sue for defamation of character, and possibly even win.

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Quote

1st Amendment's freedom of press is about not being prosecuted for political speech

Freedom of the press is not just limited to political speech, and it also limited the ability to libel or slander someone that is famous. Calling someone a convicted felon is totally different then having a opinion that they may of cheated in a game. 

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1 hour ago, enoofu said:

Freedom of the press is not just limited to political speech, and it also limited the ability to libel or slander someone that is famous. Calling someone a convicted felon is totally different then having a opinion that they may of cheated in a game. 

They officially struck his name from the books and banned him for life from any further submissions.  If they don't have actual proof of the cheating, then the claim that this is "actual malice" is academic, and TG and GBWR will be paying damages.  This goes well beyond someone just saying "so and so is a cheater."  This is them acting on it and truly sullying his name in the eyes of the public.  The First Amendment doesn't even qualify as a defense in this case.

 

Of course from what I saw about the investigation, it's pretty likely that he'll be laughed out of the courtroom.

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4 hours ago, ChildOfCv said:

They officially struck his name from the books and banned him for life from any further submissions.  If they don't have actual proof of the cheating, then the claim that this is "actual malice" is academic, and TG and GBWR will be paying damages.  This goes well beyond someone just saying "so and so is a cheater."  This is them acting on it and truly sullying his name in the eyes of the public.  The First Amendment doesn't even qualify as a defense in this case.

 

Of course from what I saw about the investigation, it's pretty likely that he'll be laughed out of the courtroom.

It's is a First Amendment issue, since TG and GBWR as private forums can include or not include anyone's articles , IE Scores for any reason.

 

Quote

If they don't have actual proof of the cheating, then the claim that this is "actual malice" is academic

Or they just don't want to have a business relationship with Billy

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6 hours ago, enoofu said:

It's is a First Amendment issue, since TG and GBWR as private forums can include or not include anyone's articles , IE Scores for any reason.

That is irrelevant.  At stake is the REASON for not including the scores.  They made that reason plain, not in the sense of some yokel claiming that so and so is a cheater, but in solid statement as fact that they acted on, and it does appreciably harm BM's reputation.  If they were not factual in making their reason known, then it would not be protected at all by the 1A.  If the Constitution were written to allow people to smear each other without consequence, then allowance for tort makes no sense.

 

The requirement of proof of "actual malice" for public figures comes from the fact that people often say disparaging things out of personal bias against public figures, which are not intended to be taken as proven fact, but just to express their disdain.  But when someone makes a statement that actually harms a public figure's reputation, and such statements are said knowing their dubious or even fraudulent nature, that establishes "actual malice" which is sufficient for the public figure to demand damages from said person or organization.

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On 9/13/2019 at 12:58 PM, VectorGamer said:

Interesting take. We'll see what happens. I have no clue how financially well off the new TG is.

 

If this did proceed to court, the real question would be how financially-capable Billy Mitchell is of sustaining that particular battle.  I know of (by reputation only) the law firm that he's evidently retained, and they aren't cheap.

 

Assuming that the Guinness Book of Records sought to defend itself in court, they likely have the ability to do so for longer than Billy Mitchell could afford to pay his lawyers.  In effect, they could empty his coffers, leaving him unable to proceed.  This would probably result in the case being dropped before any verdict was reached.

 

As for TG, GBoR may want to offer them legal representation if TG is not prepared to handle sustained litigation.  This would make sense as much of any case that GBoR may be brought into would be on the basis of data obtained from TG, and being able to keep tabs on both cases (so to speak) could be benficial for GBoR.

 

In any event, speculation's fun, but this strikes me as a go-nowhere case.  Let him sue; it'll be interesting to see the court's opinion.

 

Oh, and one comment from the peanut gallery: if Billy Mitchell is as innocent of cheating as he claims he is, why did he appear in a video titled, "Billy Mitchell: The Road to Redemption" after it had been determined that something other than a Donkey Kong PCB had been used in his million-point run?  That seems like an odd title to choose for someone who has done nothing wrong.

 

 

Edited by x=usr(1536)

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All I know is this...

 

From what I remember, TG actually has had it spelled out in its rules that if you're caught cheating, you're done for life, period. They did to Bill exactly what had been outlined in the rules, at least as long as Jace has been in charge. So that explains why his scores were removed, even the ones that aren't suspect. Same thing happened with Todd Rogers.

 

And think about this...a rich restaurant guy is suing...over a damn video game dispute. Seriously, dude? Get a life.

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28 minutes ago, Dauber said:

And think about this...a rich restaurant guy is suing...over a damn video game dispute. Seriously, dude? Get a life.

Hey, what can I say? Crybabies gonna cry!👶😭

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Greatly simplified summary of the video:

  • Robert Mruczek is interviewed by MTV approximately two months before the Billy vs. Steve event at Funspot (later shown in 'King of Kong') takes place.
  • In the background of the MTV interview, video of Billy's disputed 1.047M-point game (also shown in 'King of Kong') is seen in the background with Mruczek standing next to the CRT that the game is being shown on several times.
  • Billy has claimed that Mruczek was not sent that tape prior to it having been viewed during a private party at Funspot.
  • Billy has also claimed that the tape in question - prior to being sent to Mruczek - was digitally-edited by Dwayne Richard in order to fake the MAME-style 'girder finger' level transitions.
  • In one of the MTV interview segments, pausing the interview at the right time shows the 'girder finger' level transition - two months before Billy claimed that the tape was ever made available to other parties.

This pretty much nukes Billy's claims that a) the tape was doctored, and b) that he never submitted it to a TG referee for verification.

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens next.

Edited by x=usr(1536)
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On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 3:47 PM, Dauber said:

 

 

And think about this...a rich restaurant guy is suing...over a damn video game dispute. Seriously, dude? Get a life.

 

I was thinking the exact same thing... how does he justify the expenditure of time, energy, and money to pursue this?  Him going to these lengths just to protect some old scores that aren't even in the top 15 anymore is not a very satisfying explanation on its own, regardless of the size of his ego. 

 

It kind of makes me wonder if there is much more at stake here for him than meets the eye.  Maybe his livelihood is more closely tied to this stuff than most of us think.  If this were the case, then the grandiose legal gambits would actually be motivated by more than mere pettiness, and they'd make a lot more sense. 

 

Going all the way back to KoK and its immediate aftermath, I never got the impression that Billy really cared as much about the video games as everybody else.  If you read old post-KoK interviews with him, he was always the one making derogatory comments about people who were making too big a deal about these old games.  Up until very recently he never made a spectacle of actually playing anything at all; he had just kind of stepped into this role of classic gaming figurehead who walks around in a dumb outfit at conventions and shakes hands.  In other words, I had assumed that he had just kind of hitched his wagon to retro gaming culture not because he personally cares all that much about records and classic arcade achievements but because he enjoys the free vacations and the attention afforded by small-time celebrity.

 

But maybe it's much more than that.  How much of a surge did he see in his restaurant and hot sauce business in the wake of the movie?  To what extent do his appearance fees fund the lifestyle of him and his family?  What financial repercussions did his accountant notice when his cheating was exposed and people started boycotting his businesses and lobbying for him to be excluded from conventions and events? 

 

I would have thought none of this would really move the needle for him, but now I'm really starting to wonder.     

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And the Billy Mitchell Failboat appears to be taking on more water:

 

 

Basically, the Internet Archive's cache nullifies a bunch of his claims.

 

I'm wondering what size shoe he'll ultimately be able to cram into his mouth; it doesn't seem to be getting smaller.

Edited by x=usr(1536)
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18 hours ago, Cynicaster said:

I was thinking the exact same thing... how does he justify the expenditure of time, energy, and money to pursue this?  Him going to these lengths just to protect some old scores that aren't even in the top 15 anymore is not a very satisfying explanation on its own, regardless of the size of his ego. 

 

It kind of makes me wonder if there is much more at stake here for him than meets the eye.  Maybe his livelihood is more closely tied to this stuff than most of us think.  If this were the case, then the grandiose legal gambits would actually be motivated by more than mere pettiness, and they'd make a lot more sense. 

He'd be protecting his credibility, and that might be worth spending the money if you can afford it.  The alternative is to sit back and let people say whatever they want as Todd Rogers has had to do.

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6 hours ago, mr_me said:

He'd be protecting his credibility, and that might be worth spending the money if you can afford it.

Possibly, but his credibility is pretty much non-existent these days.  More:

Quote

The alternative is to sit back and let people say whatever they want as Todd Rogers has had to do.

Sure. But had Billy Mitchell kept quiet, the recent discoveries that only bolster the findings of non-arcade-PCB gameplay may have remained unearthed, or at least would have stayed in limited circulation.

 

This is a case where the old adage of, "it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" really comes into play.  The more he tries to defend himself or control the narrative, the deeper the hole he digs.  At least Todd Rogers seemed to figure out that it was better to just take his lumps and quietly move on.

Edited by x=usr(1536)

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I don't know who has lower public percepted credibility between those two guys.  But I doubt Tod Rogers wants to invest the resources to hire experts to analyse the claims against him or hire lawyers to take action.  Either way these guys either have a case or they don't.  Even if they do have a case if there isn't any money in it than financially it's not worthwhile.

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Someone made the video private.  I'm guessing it's from Tipster's channel, he made everything on it private.

 

Ugh.  He's been very unhappy with how Youtube has treated creators of late and is wanting to move out.

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As of July 16, 2020, aged 55, Billy Mitchell will be eligible to join AARP.

 

Looking at it in that light, it's pretty sad that Donkey Kong has basically run his life since he was 17.

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6 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

As of July 16, 2020, aged 55, Billy Mitchell will be eligible to join AARP.

 

Looking at it in that light, it's pretty sad that Donkey Kong has basically run his life since he was 17.

Some of us jump barrels. Some of us blast aliens. Some of us munch pellets. Some of us get carpel tunnel at 40. It's what we do... 🕹️

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