130xe display issues

[Lastic]

So as a new member let me first briefly introduce myself.

 

Born in 73 , I grew up with Arcade machines, saw the Atari 2600 arrive in Belgium but received a Colecovision ADAM from my parents in 85 since our local toystore carried those.

Found a decomissioned 8086 with the trash outside a DTP firm and since we used PC's at school continued on that route , running a 386DX with DRDOS until 2001.

Received hand-down desktops from my friends until I bought a laptop to use for studies and work.

Always have been a fan of old technology , Sun servers, PowerPC Macs,Tadpole Sparcstation but the hunger for 8 bit kept haunting and since I always liked the Atari ST look I went and picked up an PAL Rev.1 130XE from eBay hoping to brush the 8 bit assembler I learned in school.

 

It came with a RF cable which I hooked up to a LCD Television set .

Looking for a nicer picture I ordered the Sophia Rev C DVI board and in the meanwhile a monitor to SCART cable from here https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/atari/atari-8-bit-composite-video-scart-cable-for-800xl-65xe-130xe-800xlf-1400xl-1450xld-1200xl

 

Sadly enough my 130XE doesn't have sockets for the GTIA so I will have to pick a quiet day to desolder it and install the Sophia board.

 

The issue I found and which I don't know wether it's normal or not is when I use the monitor -> SCART cable in combination with an SIO2PC ( FTDI-serial ) certain demos

like Joyride for ex. are really blocky.

 

This is the part where the authors/coders introduce themselves with a picture and it looks awfull on my TV.

 

 

Here is a close photo I took , only in Altirra the picture looks smooth like the Youtube videos of it.

 

 

Is this normal behaviour for a 130XE or not ? Should I check other items ? SIO2PC ? RespecQT ? Powersupply ? Monitor Cable ?

 

I did verify Joyride DISK 2 on another television but had the same issues, also see the same issue in other demos.

[Fox-1 / mnx]

This looks like an XE with the infamous "China" GTIA.

 

You can check this with things like

http://atari.fox-1.nl/atari-400-800-xl-xe/400-800-xl-xe-tools/simple-system-check-0-1/

[Lastic]

Thanks a lot for that info, I found this topic here http://atariage.com/forums/topic/131365-is-there-easy-test-for-bad-gtia-in-late-model-xe-china/

 

And indeed mine was made in China

 

 

Looking further at this link http://atariki.krap.pl/index.php/GTIA

 

mine seems to suffer from a bad GTIA.

 

 

Oh well, I already had to desolder the GTIA to install the Sophia board and with only a few screws to open the unit , looks I'be installing a new GTIA .

 

 

Is this the correct replacement for it ?

 

https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/NEW-Atari-XL-XE-8-bit-computer-games-console-CO14889-01-PAL-GTIA-chip-IC/152383452491?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

the AMI number seems to be different

 

 

 

[+Stephen]

 

Is this the correct replacement for it ?

 

https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/NEW-Atari-XL-XE-8-bit-computer-games-console-CO14889-01-PAL-GTIA-chip-IC/152383452491?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

the AMI number seems to be different

That replacement chip will work. I believe the "AMI" number is just a batch number for when it was produced.

[Lastic]

That replacement chip will work. I believe the "AMI" number is just a batch number for when it was produced.

 

 

Thanks for the quick reply, ordered one.

Indeed upon further research on the topic I linked , they state

Defective layouts are those with a production date from 9040 to 9152 (the number placed on the right side of the symbol AMI).

Mine is off course 9119

[Lastic]

So my replacement GTIA arrived yesterday and I will replace it this evening with a socket to install my Sophia Rev.C board.

 

Since I've never desoldered a chip from a computer's PCB before ( I do have experience with small PCB boards ) , what is the general conscencus when using a decent soldering iron ?

 

I've been using 300-370 degrees Celcius up to now to desolder and solder things on a PCB but don't want to ruin my 130XE's PCB. Any advice ?

[+tf_hh]

So my replacement GTIA arrived yesterday and I will replace it this evening with a socket to install my Sophia Rev.C board.

Since I've never desoldered a chip from a computer's PCB before ( I do have experience with small PCB boards ) , what is the general conscencus when using a decent soldering iron ?

I've been using 300-370 degrees Celcius up to now to desolder and solder things on a PCB but don't want to ruin my 130XE's PCB. Any advice ?

 

Please use machine-head precision sockets. This will make Sophia fit perfect.

 

Some of the XE mainboards have a really bad quality. My personal rule of thumb: Darker green color = better quality, more light = bad quality. Maybe other people have other experiences of course

 

Desoldering is something special, even if you have skills in soldering, you should train on some other old PC cards for example. A good practice for Atari related stuff is desoldering sockets or ROM/EPROMs from old network cards (boot-ROM / socket for this) and VGA cards. Or any other old PCBs. If you haven´t a desoldering station or desoldering gun, take a good desoldering handpump or desoldering needles (something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192512943471).

 

Also - maybe not everyone´s cup of tea - you can take a plier and cut off every pin, what will make the old GTIA unusable, but it´s defect. Then remove the rest of the pins, clear the holes with any simple desoldering pump easily and that´s it. Using this way it´s nearly impossible to make failure and damages to the PCB.

[Irgendwer]

Since I've never desoldered a chip from a computer's PCB before ( I do have experience with small PCB boards ) , what is the general conscencus when using a decent soldering iron ?

 

I've been using 300-370 degrees Celcius up to now to desolder and solder things on a PCB but don't want to ruin my 130XE's PCB. Any advice ?

 

 

Since you ordered already a replacement part this information is a little bit late, but maybe fixing your current GTIA is simpler than de-soldering?

 

 

 

Edit: See also here: http://atari.boards.net/thread/1977/800xe-65xe-130xe-gtia-chip

Edited May 3, 2018 by Irgendwer

[Lastic]

@tf_hh I'll be using the socket provided with the Sophia board.

I just tried desoldering and gave up before damaging stuff, my solderingtip is way too huge and the cheap desoldering pump also didn't help.

Left it like that for now, 130XE still works altough still with the faulty GTIA.

Meanwhile I'm watching Flashjazzcat's work in totale awe to get some inspiration

 

 

Either will check to get better material or check with my friend who's soldering skills are better than mine

 

@Irgendwer Thanks for that usefull info, will simply replace it now since I had to remove it anyhow to install the socket for the Sophia board

Edited May 3, 2018 by Lastic

[+DrVenkman]

Desoldering isn't nearly as difficult as people make it out to be, assuming you have a decent iron, some good flux and solder, and some patience. Here's a short tutorial I did during restoration of one of my 1200XL's last year. In my case, I was replacing several defective sockets that had broken wipes or wipes that had corroded and lost their flex and thus wouldn't make reliable contact with the legs of a chip. But the principles are the same if you're not trying to salvage the existing part.

 

First step, remove what you don't need. For a soldered-in chip, clip the chip legs right about where they meet the chip casing so you have enough leg left to grasp with tweezers. For a socket, cut off the plastic frame around the socket wipes. You'll end up with something more or less like this:

 

 

Next, add flux along the solder-filled vias. This will help melt the old flux more easily. I add flux to both sides of the board using this little plastic syringe bottle. You can buy two of these on Amazon for about $8 if I remember correctly. I put liquid flux in one and 90%+ isopropyl alcohol in the other. It lets you put flux exactly where you need it, and use only what you need for the job.

 

 

Next, I grab each leg with tweezers while heating it with the iron. Once the solder in the via liquefies, lift the leg up and out of the hole.

 

 

Once you've removed all the legs, add a bit more flux to each hole, then heat from one end with the iron and apply a solder sucker to the other side. If you get some stubborn solder that won't come out with one or two quick attempts, apply some fresh solder to the hole and try again. The new stuff will melt easily along with the old stuff and should come right out with a bit of suction. Be patient and don't apply heat for more than a couple seconds to each pad, and let the pad cool if you need to try again. You don't want to lift a trace from the board. At any rate, you'll end up with this:

 

 

Solder in your new socket and you're good to go!

 

 

 

[+Stephen]

Also:

[Lastic]

TS-100 ordered, liquid flux and syringe ordered, desoldering iron ordered, to be continued hopefully next weekend .

[Lastic]

Guess I should have learned my lesson when my DIY UnoCart didn't work, this stuff is too small to solder.

 

Although better equipped this time, I easily removed the older solder , the old Made in China GTIA, installed the socket that came with the Sofia board , which went quite well with the smaller tip and soldering TS100 iron.

 

But I had a hard time fitting the GTIA onto the Sophia board so I decided first to install the new GTIA onto the socket and check if things were OK.

 

They weren't , I get flashing screens sometimes I get a fixed image for a second when pressing down on the GTIA but otherwise images keeps flashing .

 

READY prompt (BASIC)

 

 

UNOCart boot screen

 

 

What do you think , should I call it a day and look for a new PAL 130XE ( complete or board with preferrably socketed GTIA ) ?

[+tf_hh]

Are you sure that the monitor or TV used is able to display PAL well? Or do you use any kind of converter box between the Atari and your display?

 

The 2nd picture looks like one of the dozens of converter boxes I´ve had in my hands, when they aren´t able to display NTSC well on my PAL equipment. Mostly they use all the same way (converting the analog S-Video or CVBS signal to a digital stream and then back to VGA analogue with upscaling) and when the upscaling is realized poor, then it looks exactly like the 2nd picture.

 

If you own one, plug a NTSC GTIA into. You will get no color, but a b/w screen. This way to test if your solder job was good or not.

[Lastic]

Are you sure that the monitor or TV used is able to display PAL well? Or do you use any kind of converter box between the Atari and your display?

 

The 2nd picture looks like one of the dozens of converter boxes I´ve had in my hands, when they aren´t able to display NTSC well on my PAL equipment. Mostly they use all the same way (converting the analog S-Video or CVBS signal to a digital stream and then back to VGA analogue with upscaling) and when the upscaling is realized poor, then it looks exactly like the 2nd picture.

 

If you own one, plug a NTSC GTIA into. You will get no color, but a b/w screen. This way to test if your solder job was good or not.

 

 

It's hooked to the same television that I've used previously , only issue I had was certain graphics modes would display bars because of the "Chinese" GTIA that I had.

The cable I'm using is a Monitor to SCART.

[+tf_hh]

It's hooked to the same television that I've used previously , only issue I had was certain graphics modes would display bars because of the "Chinese" GTIA that I had.

The cable I'm using is a Monitor to SCART.

 

Ok, then maybe one or more traces are broken. Take a magnifier and inspect every pad first. If you can´t see anything wrong, use a multimeter and check signal flow. Search for "schematics" and "atari xe", you will easily find the Jerzy schematic files.

[Lastic]

 

Ok, then maybe one or more traces are broken. Take a magnifier and inspect every pad first. If you can´t see anything wrong, use a multimeter and check signal flow. Search for "schematics" and "atari xe", you will easily find the Jerzy schematic files.

 

 

I found the culprit, when lifting the old GTIA from the PCB it looks like I have scratched one of the traces.

Completely overlooked it when installing the socket .

[Lastic]

Digging up my first thread again since I'm doing a bit of a cleanup.

 

Since I've gathered 4 x 130XE's by now , I should really let some go , the 2nd one bought is my primary used with an Sophia installed, the other is working including the original box but the latest addition has a failing keyboard mylar , black screen , no sound but a like-new top and bottom case and keyboard keys which I will transplant .

 

But the first one , here I messed up the trace of the GTIA (currently not installed) which resulted in the rolling screens described above.

 

Could I fix the trace and re-install a GTIA ( I've since become a bit more equipped and skilled on the soldering part ) since apart from this the machine was working

perfectly ?

 

The trace in question

 

[_The Doctor__]

you have cold solder joint on chip below leg nearest cap...

 

Yes you can repair trace easy either by copper strand after mask scrape or jumping from pin to through hole that is filled with solder on other side of board..

[flashjazzcat]

Nearly every chip leg in the picture looks starved of solder.

[Mr Robot]

it even looks like I can see a little copper exposed already, you might be able to just tin the ends and lay a bit of wire over there (after fixing that dry joint the Doc spotted of course)

[Lastic]

you have cold solder joint on chip below leg nearest cap...

 

Yes you can repair trace easy either by copper strand after mask scrape or jumping from pin to through hole that is filled with solder on other side of board..

 

I'm not seeing the cold solder joint, must have my eyes checked , could you indicate it on my attached screenshot ?

 

Could I run a wire like in the green line that I drew ? I think that is what you meant with the 2nd option ?

 

Nearly every chip leg in the picture looks starved of solder.

 

Should I check the soldering on the other nearby chips ?

 

it even looks like I can see a little copper exposed already, you might be able to just tin the ends and lay a bit of wire over there (after fixing that dry joint the Doc spotted of course)

 

 

Or should I run a wire from soldered hole directly to the chip-leg ?

 

[flashjazzcat]

If you gently scrape the solder mask off the trace either side of the break as The Doctor suggested, you can solder a small length of magnet wire or similar right to the trace (flux helps a lot here). If you're going to jumper the points shown in the photo, obviously the wire will need to be insulated.

 

As for the other chips: some of the legs look as if they are part-way through a desoldering job. You could just add some flux and go over everything on the back of the board under those ICs with a little more solder.

[Lastic]

OK, got it, thanks a lot for the thorough explanations everybody and your patience, I hope I can revive this one so I have a working spare.

[Mr Robot]

If it was working fine before you broke it I'd be tempted to repair that trace, put a socket in and reinstall the gtia. Then test it, if it works, leave the rest alone.