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Clint Thompson

Zzyorxx II and Burnout Preview Released

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You can't reason with the PC Master Race, bro.

 

Just keep nodding and saying "hmm... yeah...." until he goes away.

Of course, it's impossible , if the -ehm- "arguments" being used are "386 vs PS1" :lol:

 

Pure.

Comedy.

Gold!

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And BTW: NFS is NOT comparable to Ridge Racer by any means. Its pseudo 3D like Road Rash. Which explains the high detail considering the limited 3DO Hardware.

It's really unfortunate that you chose this particular example - NFS :)

 

Because, we played the NFS on dorm a lot (I think it was summer '95) in 640x480. It's a night and day compared to console version.

 

No other console could do that at that time. Even the $700 3DO, runs NFS at low-res 320x240 at 15-20 fps.

 

 

 

Then again, I used to routinely spend $700 just on CPU...

Edited by VladR

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Hmmm

Yeah...

So, how does it feel - now that the transition from custom console chips in consoles has switched towards PC-style components in XBOX/Playstation is done ?

 

Consoles had a good run. Too bad it was too short :)

 

Hmmmm

Yeah...

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I am pretty sure NFS isn't pseudo 3D. Allowing the drive uphill/downhill perspective.

He's comparing 386 with PS1.

 

Just how drunk would you have to be to attempt to start taking him seriously :) ?

 

It's funny, how with the age, my perspective changed. In past, it used to drive me nuts, talking to such people.

 

 

 

Now, I just enjoy the free entertainment. I could be wrong, but I believe laugh is healthier than frustration :)

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So, how does it feel - now that the transition from custom console chips in consoles has switched towards PC-style components in XBOX/Playstation is done ?

 

Consoles had a good run. Too bad it was too short :)

 

Hmmmm

Yeah...

Hmmm...

Yeah...

PC's and stuff...

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He's comparing 386 with PS1.

 

Just how drunk would you have to be to attempt to start taking him seriously :)

And you're comparing a computer whose CPU alone costs $700 to a console whose launch price was $300 for the complete system.
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So PC and PS1 but no Jaguar until the system is dead and some 25-years later? Makes me wonder what on Earth pulls you into the Jaguar and wanting to code for it.

 

I always wanted a high-end PC during the same time period the Jaguar was released but it didn't happen until closer to 2000, self built. Years later I remember trading a PS1 for enough money to get a 3dfx 3000 with 16MB AGP version and loved it. At the same time, the games still seemed better on console when it came to racing, fighting, anything that would naturally have you wanting to reach for a controller. Controllers for PCs were dreadful at the time.

 

As far as Zzyorxx II is concerned, someone could blow this completely out of the water in under a month with some super crazy cool shoot'em up using Rb+, no joke (probably less time than that even) I saw the "Shoot'em Up" demo made by Dr. Typo some time ago and it was a nice start to laying the groundwork, just needed the snazzy graphics to make it shine and further extending upon. I'm not sure anything could really top what Native could have possibly been though. The polish on that demo forever shines as incredible, going from memory.

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And you're comparing a computer whose CPU alone costs $700 to a console whose launch price was $300 for the complete system.

I didn't start the comparison. I never said it's fair, when I know my rig cost thousands, but those shmucks keep entering the arena voluntarily ;)

All I'm saying is that the way I played PC games didn't come to consoles until way, way, later.

 

Another example. 2,048 x 1,536 resolution on a Sony 22" monitor (a $3,000 beast in itself). It's sharper than 1,920x1,080 as its dot pitch factor&sharpness combo remains unrivalled to this day (unless you count iPad form factor), as it was CRT.

 

I played many PC games in that resolution ~13 years ago and I was actually quite late in obtaining that monitor. Consoles are only coming close to this resolution now. After over a decade.

A decade in this space is a difference between 2-3 console generations.

 

 

Very few people actually experienced playing on that monitor, which also unfortunately meant, that to this day, I bitch at every single LCD/plasma/LED that I ever bought, as they all suck compared to that monitor.

 

 

So PC and PS1 but no Jaguar until the system is dead and some 25-years later? Makes me wonder what on Earth pulls you into the Jaguar and wanting to code for it.

It's the heterogenous architecture and the need to code in assembler across multiple chips. The last time I had at least partially such joy on PC, coding 3D engines, was in pre-shader era. Or DX 8.1, the last assembler shaders...

 

Shaders killed all that.

 

 

 

Clearly, if I'm willing to take a $150,000 paycut, it must be really enjoyable, eh :) ? But, in Montana it's possible to survive on $25k a year, so there's hope :)

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Literally, everybody, who played games, had a PC. A PS1, for a very long time, was a funny rarity.

Perhaps in your area / region perhaps (not sure if that's what you were getting at), but regionally depending on where you lived it varied a bit (e.g. Europe had higher penetration of computing vs console gaming until the 4th or 5th console gen) and worldwide, the SNES/MD/Genesis/PCEngine generation (and the one before that) were 'bigger' gaming platforms than PC/home computer. PS1 / N64 increased the market penetration and volume of consoles worldwide, and only the 3D graphics cards (and the superior graphics / resolutions they offered) kept PCs in the gaming, err, game.

 

The PS2 generation resulted in an even greater increase in console penetration / volume. Since then it's stabilised (or dropped) in terms of actual units of consoles sold.

 

The PS1 sold over 100 million units and is the second highest selling home TV console (behind the PS2). Hardly a rarity (worldwide).

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Perhaps in your area / region perhaps (not sure if that's what you were getting at), but regionally depending on where you lived it varied a bit (e.g. Europe had higher penetration of computing vs console gaming until the 4th or 5th console gen) and worldwide, the SNES/MD/Genesis/PCEngine generation (and the one before that) were 'bigger' gaming platforms than PC/home computer. PS1 / N64 increased the market penetration and volume of consoles worldwide, and only the 3D graphics cards (and the superior graphics / resolutions they offered) kept PCs in the gaming, err, game.

 

The PS2 generation resulted in an even greater increase in console penetration / volume. Since then it's stabilised (or dropped) in terms of actual units of consoles sold.

 

The PS1 sold over 100 million units and is the second highest selling home TV console (behind the PS2). Hardly a rarity (worldwide).

I understand very well, that since you grew up in a free, capitalism-ruled country (Australia, I reckon from your sig), the concept of world-wide does not seem illegal to you. But trust me, it was a life-threatening or life-changing concept where I grew up to even mention it publicly. You would not believe 10% of things I would tell you, so why bother ?

 

Even X360 was illegal to buy there and unsupported. Microsoft didn't give two flying fucks that we are in European Union. I had a shady import of X360 there, but it was from a source I knew (smuggler, but honest and non-violent, the worse scenario being paying for non-functioning unit, of course no returns).

 

I think Sony allowed to officially buy PS3 at the end of the cycle - but not 100% sure, as I was gone from there anyway and see no reason to google it. You simply could not walk into a store a buy a brand new console on launch until current generation - e.g. Xbox One and PS4.

 

This is the reason, why when PS4 was launched, I actually stood in the midnight line at Gamestop because for the first time in my life it was legal for me to go out and buy the console. Safely. Just hand over the money. On launch day. The sh*t you imperialists take for granted.

 

 

Of course everybody had a PC. It was safe to buy in store. With 2-year guarantee.

If you engaged in shady aftermarket ads, you never had 100% chance you would get back home with money/merchandise. It's like Craigslist in U.S. You always took a risk you will get robbed or worse. And you couldn't even go to police - they would laugh you out for being stupid to answer such ad in the first place and remind you that you are lucky the guy didn't feel like butchering you.

 

 

 

So, I'm sorry but I don't give a flying fuck how many units it sold in U.S or U.K or Japan. The world did not exist and we didn't exist for the world either. Very simple concept.

 

Or did your country bother waltzing in and overthrowing Russian military occupation ?

 

What was that ? No ?

 

 

Hmmmmmmm......

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...

 

You would not believe 10% of things I would tell you, so why bother ?

...

 

The sh*t you imperialists take for granted.

...

 

Or did your country bother waltzing in and overthrowing Russian military occupation ?

 

I understand your situation was vastly different. Between my "business" and my tertiary research in the area (in addition to what I learnt by attrition at the time and by reading worldwide publications (and being on the internet from 1992) I'm quite aware of the different worldwide conditions, both market related as well as government imposed differences.

 

Of course I didn't live through it. It sounds rather challenging, I can't even imagine. I have taught numerous students from Russia and Eastern Europe over the last 20 years and have heard the amazing and sometimes horrifying stories.

 

I was, however, simply referring to the comment of yours that I quoted. How was I to know it wasn't a generalised statement but specific to your situation? That's why I said "not sure if that's what you were getting at" There's no other agenda from me, just qualifying it from a wider perspective.

Don't know if I really invited or deserved that spray from you. But, if nothing else (as it relates to my games research) I always value hearing perspectives far removed from mine.

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I understand your situation was vastly different. Between my "business" and my tertiary research in the area (in addition to what I learnt by attrition at the time and by reading worldwide publications (and being on the internet from 1992) I'm quite aware of the different worldwide conditions, both market related as well as government imposed differences.

 

Of course I didn't live through it. It sounds rather challenging, I can't even imagine. I have taught numerous students from Russia and Eastern Europe over the last 20 years and have heard the amazing and sometimes horrifying stories.

 

I was, however, simply referring to the comment of yours that I quoted. How was I to know it wasn't a generalised statement but specific to your situation? That's why I said "not sure if that's what you were getting at" There's no other agenda from me, just qualifying it from a wider perspective.

Don't know if I really invited or deserved that spray from you. But, if nothing else (as it relates to my games research) I always value hearing perspectives far removed from mine.

I'm actually really surprised, as you are the first person, who actually has some idea about what I was talking about. And no, that's no sarcasm.

 

Thank you.

 

 

For what it's worth (and I know very well it ain't much), I apologize I have jumped on you, but it's been really frustrating the last 10 years in U.S. meeting with the blank stare when this topic is brought up. Not that it's an excuse, of course...

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You can't reason with the PC Master Race, bro.

Just keep nodding and saying "hmm... yeah...." until he goes away.

I can still remember chuckling away when Sega released the minimum PC specs needed to play the PC version of Ecco The Dolphin. ..a Pentium PC just to play an aging Genesis title?

 

PC was behind the consoles at various points, i seem to remember even with a Diamond Edge 3D card, PC Panzer Dragoon was worse than the Saturn version.

 

PC Wipeout was also weaker than the Playstation version.

 

We also got enhancements by the time PC games hit console..Fade To Black had texture mapped graphics compared to the PC version.

 

You couldn't really compare a fixed set up $300 box that plugged into your TV to an upgradable system like the PC doing games in 640×480 and above long before the Dreamcast arrived.

 

Entry level vs high end consumer products.

Edited by Lost Dragon
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So PC and PS1 but no Jaguar until the system is dead and some 25-years later? Makes me wonder what on Earth pulls you into the Jaguar and wanting to code for it.

 

I always wanted a high-end PC during the same time period the Jaguar was released but it didn't happen until closer to 2000, self built. Years later I remember trading a PS1 for enough money to get a 3dfx 3000 with 16MB AGP version and loved it. At the same time, the games still seemed better on console when it came to racing, fighting, anything that would naturally have you wanting to reach for a controller. Controllers for PCs were dreadful at the time.

 

As far as Zzyorxx II is concerned, someone could blow this completely out of the water in under a month with some super crazy cool shoot'em up using Rb+, no joke (probably less time than that even) I saw the "Shoot'em Up" demo made by Dr. Typo some time ago and it was a nice start to laying the groundwork, just needed the snazzy graphics to make it shine and further extending upon. I'm not sure anything could really top what Native could have possibly been though. The polish on that demo forever shines as incredible, going from memory.

If i am reading the Zzyorxx II details properly, does it really only say 2 layers of Parallax?

 

There were Genesis 2D shooters handling more than this.

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3DO Crash And Burn info direct from those who worked on it:

 

Gregg A Tavares:

 

'The track is being

pulled off the CD. Originally the entire track was in memory but when the

enemies cars were added the frame rate went all the way down to 5fps. The

solution was to write a tool that would, for each view of the track, remove

all the polygons that are not seen. Since you can move left and right and

up and down (cockpit vs 3rd person) nothing is 'pre-calculated'

 

 

 

'The entire track is still in memory. The track consists of tons-o-polygons.

Far too many for any machine to display in real-time. On part of displaying

something in 3D is figuring out which parts you can see and which parts you

can't. For example, if you are driving down a race track and you are

looking forward you can't see behind you therefore you don't want to draw

the stuff behind you on the screen. So, you do some math to tell you what

parts of your 3D world you can actually see. This takes alot of time. In

fact it is probably this single biggest problem with anything that works in

3D. All programs deal with this in different ways. Flight Simulator does

it while it's running. It keeps a list of all the things you can see and as

you fly around it adds or removes things. To see it in action, fly in skew

mode and skew really fast and then stop. You will see different 3D parts

pop in one at a time as the program finds new things that are now in your

view.

 

On CnB we wrote a program that would 'drive' down the track and for each

section of the track it makes a list of all the parts that can actually be

seen. These 'lists of visible parts' are then stored in the CD and as you

drive down the track the 'list' for the part of the track you are currently

on is loaded. This makes it run faster because we don't have to do all the

calculations for which things are visible while you are racing.'

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And next to tick off the list:

 

3DO NFS:

 

From Eurogamer/Digital Foundary-

 

 

'As was becoming increasingly common at the time, The Need for Speed featured fully 3D environments and polygonal cars. The visuals are boxy by today's standards but at the time, it was an incredible sight to behold - a huge leap beyond the likes of Stunt Race FX, released on Super NES in the same year. The mountainous curves on Alpine can be seen twisting into the distance while the Coast offers up stunning beaches and steep overhangs - it was remarkably evocative for a racing game. Of course, there are many tricks happening beneath the surface - distant objects, for instance, are often represented via two-dimensional bitmaps rather than as 3D objects but the illusion was still effective.'

 

 

'The game featured three views - an interior cockpit view and two external options, with gameplay focused on a duel with a single other AI racer - cheesy 90s cliche, the 'X Man'. The cockpit view is presented with close facsimiles of original vehicle interiors and even a set of working gauges. Like the Test Drive games that preceded it, the transmission shifter also appeared on-screen dynamically every time you switched gears. In fact, when you first get behind the wheel, there isn't even a countdown - the game waits for you to shift into first gear before the race begins. It sets a precedent for a different kind of driving experience - despite its name, The Need for Speed was a slower-paced game. It's neither an arcade racer nor a simulation and in many ways, feels more like a precursor to Gran Turismo as a result.'

 

'The Need for Speed may look simplistic by today's standards, but Stunt Race FX released two months after NFS demonstrated just how far behind mainstream consoles were.

Now, as enjoyable as its races are considering the technology of the era, there is one significant flaw that holds back the game when played in retrospect - the frame-rate. The 3DO could never quite keep up with the action and The Need for Speed runs below 20fps with an average frame-rate hovering around 15fps. It feels incredibly sluggish by today's standards but when you stop and consider the competition, it feels more acceptable. Rival consoles were left with far less detailed racing games generally running at even slower frame-rates. Even on PC, most systems from this era were incapable of matching the prowess of the 3DO.'

Edited by Lost Dragon
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If i am reading the Zzyorxx II details properly, does it really only say 2 layers of Parallax?

There were Genesis 2D shooters handling more than this.

There were PC Engine shooters that did more than this - and the PC Engine had to do parallax in software :)

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But ..but those older machines used bitplanes and not chunky gfx modes. Not a coder myself, but doing (fake) paralax scrolling using bitplanes might be easier to do. Maybe some coder could comment on that.

On the other hand. The Jag with its 64 bit powah and all that should be able to do more than 2?

In the end it's just eye candy and is useless when a game is no fun to play or becomes too complicated to finalize and release it.

 

Eddited to add more typo's

Edited by Ayreon

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Nope. Two layers max. That's the limit. No need to speculate further *cough*sfdx*cough*laststrike*cough.

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