IDE Plus 2.0

[drac030]

Rev. S (or D/S) is D with one-channel Covox. I think rev. E and F have the Covox by default.

 

As for the licensing and stuff, I certainly have nothing against it. I would however prefer to retain the rights to the IDE+BIOS so that I could still modify the sources at will and release updated binary versions from time to time.

 

To my understanding, the physical storage may be the problem. Up to (and including) rev. D the IDE+ interface was primarily designed for the spinning-platter IDE drives. These are becoming rare, especially 2.5-inch drives of reasonable capacity (like 2 GB rather than 200 GB). As of rev. E the hardware switched to CF cards, which unfortunately are becoming rare (and pricey) too.

 

I personally have no problem with spinning-platter HDDs, when the one I use daily goes down, I still have two replacement drives in my drawer. But getting new ones on the market may be difficult.

Edited February 17, 2022 by drac030
typos

[Gitbizy]

11 hours ago, rickcollette said:

ill pay for the run up front.

or happy to buy rights for a reasonable price....

 

 

 

I would be interested in working with you on this and participating in the funding.

[+Larry]

7 hours ago, drac030 said:

Rev. S (or D/S) is D with one-channel Covox. I think rev. E and F have the Covox by default.

 

As for the licensing and stuff, I certainly have nothing against it. I would however prefer to retain the rights to the IDE+BIOS so that I could still modify the sources at will and release updated binary versions from time to time.

 

To my understanding, the physical storage may be the problem. Up to (and including) rev. D the IDE+ interface was primarily designed for the spinning-platter IDE drives. These are becoming rare, especially 2.5-inch drives of reasonable capacity (like 2 GB rather than 200 GB). As of rev. E the hardware switched to CF cards, which unfortunately are becoming rare (and pricey) too.

 

I personally have no problem with spinning-platter HDDs, when the one I use daily goes down, I still have two replacement drives in my drawer. But getting new ones on the market may be difficult.

Has anyone here tested the IDE+2 with a SD card + CF adapter?  And likewise perhaps someone is using an IDE+2 with a SSD?  I haven't, but will if it has not been done already.  I've used rev. D, E, and F with CF cards exclusively.  I also think I did with C, but I don't quite remember.

 

[Tillek]

20 hours ago, rickcollette said:

ill pay for the run up front.

or happy to buy rights for a reasonable price....

 

 

 

Or at least maybe a license to produce?

[Tillek]

13 hours ago, drac030 said:

Rev. S (or D/S) is D with one-channel Covox. I think rev. E and F have the Covox by default.

 

As for the licensing and stuff, I certainly have nothing against it. I would however prefer to retain the rights to the IDE+BIOS so that I could still modify the sources at will and release updated binary versions from time to time.

 

To my understanding, the physical storage may be the problem. Up to (and including) rev. D the IDE+ interface was primarily designed for the spinning-platter IDE drives. These are becoming rare, especially 2.5-inch drives of reasonable capacity (like 2 GB rather than 200 GB). As of rev. E the hardware switched to CF cards, which unfortunately are becoming rare (and pricey) too.

 

I personally have no problem with spinning-platter HDDs, when the one I use daily goes down, I still have two replacement drives in my drawer. But getting new ones on the market may be difficult.

I don't even think it's so much of a question of "buying the rights" as it is "license to produce" so that other people can make them.

 

I'd love to be able to look at the sources and schematics but not necessarily "buy" the rights (as in, take them away from the original owner).

[rickcollette]

I think license to produce + use whatever firmware is available would be awesome.

Just being able to do that in the US would increase our footprint for people with access to them.  
Given they are likely still made in China... but yeah.. 

 

Also: I have an SSD on my Rev D - it seems to work fine for all the normal stuff... 

[BillC]

The most flexible would be the IDE interface as opposed to the Rev.F CF card, there are adapters from 44-pin IDE to CF card, MSATA(mini SATA) SSD, M.2 SATA(not NVME) SSD, and SD card, This would allow 5 different storage options listed below which are 2.5" form factor, allows secure mounting, except for item #5.

 

1) 44-pin IDE: spinning platter or SSD, 44-pin SSD are more expensive than MSATA/M.2 SATA

2) CF card: dual CF card adapter currently ~$15 on Amazon(I have a similar adapter, no issues)

3) MSATA SSD: adapter currently ~$14 on Amazon

4) M.2 SATA SSD" adapter currently ~$15 on Amazon

5) SD card: adapter currently ~$13 to $16 on Amazon(these are small, only supported by 44-pin connection)

 

One thing I would like to see is an accessible socket for the battery instead of soldered in under the drive, perhaps extending the PCB up alongside the cartridge socket and also moving the switches to this area as well for better visibilty/access. I realize this would increase the size/cost of the PCB, but it shouldn't be that much more.

 

Another location for the battery socket would be on the under side of the PCB, near the IDE header pad end, if this didn't interfere with plugging it onto an XL via the PBI edge connector.

Edited February 17, 2022 by BillC

[+Peter Rabitt]

OK GREAT, but that is the largest ssd, hdd, etc that can be access by the firmware/software???

If you broke down a hdd, sdd, cf, etc to multi partitions What size would be the best???

Knowing that what I have heard is the Atari 8 bit software is about 1 gbit. (OR SO)

Yes I have 2 -f units but have not had the time to play...Still trying to fix the disk drives I have..

The computers all work!!!

Also we talked( the thread) about the rd5 sig to pin 39 of the pbi but is that not the pin we upgrade to +5 volts to run stuff on the pni in a 800xl???

 

Just asking questions...I hope someone can produce the systems so more of us can buy them..

 

Peter

[BillC]

18 minutes ago, Peter Rabitt said:

OK GREAT, but that is the largest ssd, hdd, etc that can be access by the firmware/software???

If you broke down a hdd, sdd, cf, etc to multi partitions What size would be the best???

 

Also we talked( the thread) about the rd5 sig to pin 39 of the pbi but is that not the pin we upgrade to +5 volts to run stuff on the pni in a 800xl???

I don't know the maximum size drive the firmware is currenly capable of, but it is LBA compatible and the firmware could also be upgraded if necessary. I know that when MEtalGuy66 reproduced the MIO a new firmware was developed that was compatible with a 73GB SCSI drive, BITD I used a 40MB ST251 MFM drive with an Adaptec 4000A bridgeboard with my MIO.

 

The maximum native partition is 32MB for SpartaDOS X and 16MB for other DOS versions, but you can configure multiple partitons and only mount thise currently needed. I know SpartaDOS X on the SIDE cartriges has a driver to support accessing FAT partitions on the CF card and think the IDE+ 2.0 does as well..

 

The PBI is 50 conductor, +5V is 47/48

Edited February 17, 2022 by BillC

[+bf2k+]

14 hours ago, Larry said:

Has anyone here tested the IDE+2 with a SD card + CF adapter?  And likewise perhaps someone is using an IDE+2 with a SSD?  I haven't, but will if it has not been done already.  I've used rev. D, E, and F with CF cards exclusively.  I also think I did with C, but I don't quite remember.

 

Hey Larry,

I tested it rather heavily in October thru December of 2021 on my Rev C using a CF adapter and CF card... not an SD card.  Bottom line is that it was not reliable.  I only had one CF card that was semi-reliable but nothing that was 100% reliable... now I am running a 60gb IDE 2.5" rotator and it is 100% reliable; tough as a tank!  I have a spare one of these and about 4 other 2.5" rotators from various laptop pulls.  I think I have a spreadsheet of test data around here if you are interested...

[GoodByteXL]

6 hours ago, bf2k+ said:

I tested it rather heavily in October thru December of 2021 on my Rev C using a CF adapter and CF card... not an SD card.  Bottom line is that it was not reliable.

I came across the same experience you described years ago. I wanted to use CF and SD cards with Rev C as I did before with the MSC IDE Controller.

 

Simius told me that there is a kind of incompatibility of Rev C with 'some' CF adapters for IDE. As a fix he sent me some guidelines how to modify the Rev C - and it works fine since then with adapters and still with hard drives.

My standard setup uses a 4 GiB CF card using a large FAT partition as an read-only archive. The CF card is frequently mirrored to an image to be used with Altirra running the same setup in hardware.

 

As for another run it it still save to use IDE 2.5 as there are more than sufficient options to use adapters for it. Even if IDE to M-SATA seems to be a crazy idea, such an adapter plus a small SSD is relatively cheap compared to an an CF adapter and brand CF card.

Edited February 18, 2022 by GoodByteXL

[+Larry]

10 hours ago, bf2k+ said:

Hey Larry,

I tested it rather heavily in October thru December of 2021 on my Rev C using a CF adapter and CF card... not an SD card.  Bottom line is that it was not reliable.  I only had one CF card that was semi-reliable but nothing that was 100% reliable... now I am running a 60gb IDE 2.5" rotator and it is 100% reliable; tough as a tank!  I have a spare one of these and about 4 other 2.5" rotators from various laptop pulls.  I think I have a spreadsheet of test data around here if you are interested...

Sure, I'd love to see the data!

 

Also, I've never had any issues with CF cards with D, E, or F.  E had issues losing the settings when powered off. C was not compatible with the 65816. I don't remember if it was just in 65816 mode, or totally didn't work. I suspect the latter.

 

@rickcollette  How big is your SSD? 

[GoodByteXL]

2 hours ago, GoodByteXL said:

Simius told me that there is a kind of incompatibility of Rev C with 'some' CF adapters for IDE. As a fix he sent me some guidelines how to modify the Rev C - and it works fine since then with adapters and still with hard drives.

Dug it up, finally. This is what Simius proposed and I followed it:

Quote

Faster chip isn't a solution, because the problem is not a propagation time but too long on-time, resulting interferences on the address/data bus.
Buffer should be open only in the second half of machine cycle, not a full cycle, as is.
There is two solutions: remove the buffer or PHI2-gating of the Output Enable signal. First one is simpler.

There is a solution of this problem. Remove ACT/ALS245 buffer (partially under lithium battery) and replace it with 8 pieces of thin wire between pad 2 and 18, 3-17, 4-16, 5-15, 6-14, 7-13, 8-12, 9-11.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by GoodByteXL

[+bf2k+]

1 hour ago, GoodByteXL said:

Dug it up, finally. This is what Simius proposed and I followed it:

 

I am probably not steady enough with my soldering iron anymore to do something like this... getting old is hell.

[Marius]

For already quite some time my main HD interface is IDE+ rev. D. I have a few of them. They work absolutely great with a CF adapter. No problems at all. Very stable, very fast.

 

There are only two things that I would like to see:

1) a battery holder in stead of an onboard soldered battery. 

 

2) a momentary switch, so that one could (just like with the Freezer or the Black Box) break a running program and jump into the IDE+ config menu. To attach/detach an ATR file or make some swapping in the partitions. 

Rev. D is my favorite version of IDE+ ... I am very fond of stock Atari 8bit computers. I think for non-U1MB users the IDE+ is the best harddisk interface. (It also works great of course with U1MB installed, but then SIDE2 and SIDE3 in combination with @flashjazzcat's bios extremely cool as wel of course). 

Well let's see what happens. IDE+ should not abandon the scene. It's an awesome interface!

[+Stephen]

I agree - it was the IDE interface that got me using HDDs on the 8-bit.  Even though I have since moved onto U1MB + internal CF cards (my 1088XLD is daily driver), I am not selling the IDE+.  Only thing I wish it had was a case.

[+bf2k+]

2 hours ago, Marius said:

1) a battery holder in stead of an onboard soldered battery. 

 

Yes!  I noticed my battery was down to 2.9v the other day.  I was a bit surprised to find out that it was soldered onto the board.

[Stephen J Carden]

On 2/16/2022 at 7:03 AM, Larry said:

What is an "S" version?  I'm familiar with C, D, E, and F. 

 

@Simius-  Just thinking...  Would you and Konrad allow/license someone else to produce these?  Or if a "white knight" (or two) would pay for the whole run up front, would you consider making more?  Making one with no changes would seem the easiest.  D is the most appealing (and supports the 65816), but would seem to require by far the most hand-work.  IIRC, you believe that F works the best, overall.  I have several, and think I bought a total of 7 of the various models from you.  But the IDE+2 is the best device of it's type, and I would hope that it could be available to users indefinitely.

Hi Larry & Jacek!

   Hope you are both doing well today.  If the firmware could be updated with the IDE * 2.0 S.  I would love along with the IDE disk drivers be updated to also support ISO 9660. Love to see one of my old CD-ROMs could be easy.  We could do ISO 9660 as well as IDE Harddisk.  Maybe a firmware upgrade could add the IOMEGA flash drives. Right now the only hardware I know of that does CD-Rom reading is SIO2IDE. Yes I have two of them.  I do not know of anyone making or selling the SIO2IDE. The different IDE Plus are.

 

First one  IDEa

second one  IDE Plus 2.0 B

Third One      IDE Plus 2.0 C

Fourth one     IDE Plus 2.0 D

Fifth One     IDE 2.0 Plus S         I has a spot for another little chip.   Jacek Can tell you about it.

Sixth One   IDE 2.0 Plus CF Memory Chip.  No need for the ICD to CF Adapter.

 

From looking at the IDE Plus 2.0 D there is 3  512k by 8 Flash chip that is holding everything for the IDE 2.0 To run.  I do not know if there is extra space to add any code.

Have fun with the Atari!

Steve

 

 

[Stephen J Carden]

On 2/17/2022 at 5:33 AM, Larry said:

Has anyone here tested the IDE+2 with a SD card + CF adapter?  And likewise perhaps someone is using an IDE+2 with a SSD?  I haven't, but will if it has not been done already.  I've used rev. D, E, and F with CF cards exclusively.  I also think I did with C, but I don't quite remember.

 

Hi Larry!

    I did this upgrade to one of my IDE Plus 2.0 D drives. I asked Jacek if he did not mind. This upgrade does not require a firmware flash.

http://www.realdos.net/IDE Plus Upgrade.html  The little drives are getting hard to find. Most of the older IDE drives that are under a GIG will work with this upgrade.

 

Take care and enjoy the Atari

[Stephen J Carden]

On 2/17/2022 at 11:35 AM, Tillek said:

Or at least maybe a license to produce?

I would take two please.

Steve

[+Larry]

I looked through my bag of misc. CF and SD cards. These range from 32 MB! up to 8 GB.and found a CF -> SD/SDHC card adapter, labeled "IDE+2 MyDos."   The actual SD card was only 256 MB. So I had evidently tried this in the past.  Plugged it into my (stock) Rev. D, and it booted right up.  I'm not sure how valuable this is, since small SD cards are also pretty rare these days. Nonetheless, it provides another option.  I have an apx. 60 GB SSD that I will attempt to partition, and see if it also works.

 

@drac030 or @flashjazzcat -- can you tell us offhand what is the largest IDE device that can be partitioned with the APT (and work with the IDE+2?

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

4 hours ago, Larry said:

what is the largest IDE device that can be partitioned with the APT (and work with the IDE+2?

Should be 137.4GB, or - practically speaking - 128GB. 64GB media has been tested here without problems, at least on APT devices other than IDE+ (which I haven't used for a while).

 

 

[+Peter Rabitt]

Hi ALL:

I have a F1 IDE 2.0 and I would like to know how to hook up a HDD. I have old hard drives from old computers and would like to put them to work. I have 5.25, 3.5, 2.5 types... Most are the old interface...

 

thanks (Do I need to get a D rev to do this???)

 

Peter

Edited February 21, 2022 by Peter Rabitt
SP

[+Peter Rabitt]

Well an update... I plug in a c.f. card and plug the IDE into the PBI and turn it on...Well nothing...

I put the sdx 4.49 cartage in the 800xl and fire it up. The sdx worked but I do not know the cmd to get into the IDE..

I then wanted to see if the IDE was working so I plugged the SDX into the cart. plug in the IDE and it worked after power on a couple of times... Still no way into the IDE..

Unplugged the SDX cart. from the IDE. Turn on the computer again and a blue screen came up then a few sec. later I got a screen about 1/3 down from the top of the screen and looked like some sort of data running thru it... Can't stop this...I guess some how I destroyed the IDE???

 

Peter

[+Larry]

You have a IDE+2 Rev F?  If not, pls post a picture.  Unlikely you have damaged it, based on what you described.  Is your card formatted and partitioned?  If you haven't  already, you need to download the IDE+2 docs and APT Toolkit which has the FDISK software for partitioning.