The Atari VCS Controversies Thread

[+Stephen]

14 minutes ago, OCAT said:

So.. what are you saying? What do I do? do I buy Atari stock or wait? I NEED TO KNOW.. what is the hidden message in your post?!!!!

Do I go all in?  ???

stop being so cryptic! unless you want me to buy the crypto-Token too?
TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mentioned in here yesterday, that Atari stock is a whopping $0.39 and the crypto-currency hit a MEGA $0.17.  So hell yeah, this is the time to invest.  It can only go up from here, am I right?

[+Stephen]

10 minutes ago, CPUWIZ said:

Man, you guys have a lot of time to waste on a piece of plastic, go post some GIF's or something.  Laugh, chuckle or grin every once in a while.

 

  Hide contents

When you see Thomas respond, like he did, the thread has become useless. LOL

 

Oh, and my Apple watch is better than your Android watch, so there!

Wow - people get mad if we talk smack about the VCS.  They get mad if we post girly pics.  They get mad if we talk about Commodores.  I'm starting to think this place might be for a bunch of geeks that I don't know?  Post positive things about old Atari computers   The Jaguar - well, the fumes make it tough to know what's ever happening there.

[CPUWIZ]

3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Commodores

 

 

[+Stephen]

Great - now I feel like dancing on the ceiling.

[leech]

1 hour ago, CPUWIZ said:

Oh, and my Apple watch is better than your Android watch, so there!

I like my Tizen one.

[CPUWIZ]

2 minutes ago, leech said:

I like my Tizen one.

 

I may know a family, that would take you in.

[leech]

4 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

unsubscribed

 

[leech]

1 minute ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

I may know a family, that would take you in.

Ha, really the Samsung Galaxy watches are quite nice and look a lot nicer than the Apple ones.  Of course this is just my opinion. 

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

They get mad if we post girly pics.

Did I miss girly pics?  No fair!  Fine!  Back to trying to dodge head crabs in Half-Life: Alyx!

[CPUWIZ]

1 minute ago, leech said:

Back to trying to dodge head crabs in Half-Life: Alyx!

 

Jealous.

[leech]

4 hours ago, godslabrat said:

Let me answer your second question first: I do not believe that efforts such as this, which are blatant get-in-and-get-out cash grabs, are healthy for the hobby.  It presents retrogaming consumers as easy marks, and sets a precedent that we'll buy any piece of garbage box that has a familiar logo on it.  I beleive the hobby is healthier when it's expected that new products be of higher quality.  

This all assumes that they are indeed doing a cash grab.  So far with their support on their discord and making crappy things right, it looks at least as if they are indeed trying.  So I take a neutral stance as to if this changes in a year.  Like if they pump and dump the system after a year, then I can agree with you.  If they support it for longer can you agree that it wasn't just a cash grab and that maybe they actually would like to do something legit?

 

4 hours ago, godslabrat said:

This doesn't even address the speculation that Atari never intended to fulfull the orders themselves, they just wanted to be bought out and unload the project onto someone else.  For the moment, I'm just sticking with the screwups that have been documented beyond the point of disagreement.

Yeah their screwups were definitely screwups and I am sure any of the backers were getting uneasy with them.  But that is the difference now and back in the day.  Could you imagine if you were an investor in Atari around 83-85, when they sold off to Tramiel and then learned the 7800 was shelved?  The speculation was clearly just speculation.  So many were burned by other projwcts like the Chameleon, or that ridiculous gamewatch.  So yeah, I can ses why there would be some misgivings there. 

I maintain they saw the trend with the flashbacks and the mini computer recreations with stuff and thought they could both 'bring back a classic' and 'make a mini new computer/console to scratch the itch of people putting Pis into old computer cases.'  Kind of an old and new combination.  Let's face it, if they ried to do just a console, it would die next to the giants.  If it were not for Nintendo doing something weird and different,  and Nintendo's legacy IP, they would have died out with the Gamecube, and would be more like Sega.  But they keep doing something more unique and keep selling.  had Atari kept a fresh console around all the time after the 2600s success, they probably would not be the what they are now.

So that brings the question of, what are they now?  They do seem to be 'trying' to be a game company again instead of a IP holder.  The question is, will they step up and try to get some developers to actually use that IP 'correctly' vs just reselling their old crap?  I vote to let time decide.  Sure, if after a year they do nothing but release games that are 'why not?' ports, then I will also belive this was a cash grab.  But I don't think they can aford that, and I am sure any shareholders will be like 'yeah, we want you to make money, so do what fans want.'

 

So yeah, it will be an interesting next quarter, as in theory that is when the general release will be.

[leech]

15 minutes ago, CPUWIZ said:

 

Jealous.

It is SICK!  Though I have banged my pricey Index controllers a few times while trying to reload my gun as critters jump at my face!  6 or so hours into it.  The aliens look amazing, reload actions are generally to eject the magazine, reach behind your shoulder for a new one, then insert and pull the slide.  Trying to do that fast while the Combine are shooting at you... not to mention physically ducking behind counters and throwing grenades... talk about intense!

If video cards were not so pricey right now, I would have 2 VR rigs... haha

[CPUWIZ]

I have seriously considered making a PC just for that game, with VR gear etc.!  But I can wait, it'll still be the same game, just cheaper.

[yrly]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

LOL - just like the Jaguar sold like hotcakes when the more expensive Playstation, Saturn, and 3D0 were out right?

Jaguar wasn’t widely available at all Wal-Marts (none of them around here ever got any). Saturn and 3D0 sold badly. Jaguar didn’t attempt to include or fall back on any old library. Nostalgic gaming wasn’t a driving factor back then. It didn’t have additional functionality much beyond a games console. This it had to compete strictly on new production games.

[godslabrat]

2 hours ago, 82-T/A said:

 

Do you know what builds friendships? It's through communication and people finding commonality. It's why even people like my wife, who is a radical leftist Jewish woman, decided to marry a hard-core Republican Catholic... and it works. Because even with all of that, there's still some shared interests. She may drive a VW Bus, and I may drive a Ford Explorer... but at the end of the day, we both like Game of Thrones, sex, and vintage video games, not in any particular order.

 

 

I'm totally on board with that.  In my life outside AA, I make a point out of trying to spotlight geek communities and making them stronger.  I've grown very distressed by what's happened to retrogaming, and I put part of the blame on profiteering with no committment to quality.  But that's another conversation.

 

2 hours ago, 82-T/A said:

 

With that, I am interested to know what in your opinion would be something that WOULD be better for the hobby? Genuinely interested, no sarcasm here... just curious what that would look like and if I would think it cool as well.

 

That's a great question.  Because of the thread topic, I'll limit my ideas to what Atari themselves could do:

 

1) Create an HDMI replacement for the 2600.  I know that conventional wisdom says this wouldn't sell, but Hyperkin has one.  And, to be honest, if your main marketing angle is "We made the 2600 once", then you need to own that and put some money into it.

 

2) Create an actual vintage development community, including tutorials, tools, and possibly even the ability to make your own carts.  Now, I realize that last one might not be cost-effective, but the first few most certainly are.  You might actually get some sellable games out of the deal, at a much lower cost than outsourcing to known companies.

 

3) Embrace other platforms and offer your vintage and slightly-less-vintage games as a service that includes online chat, communities, and competition.  This is probably my favorite option, as it's the one most agreeable with modern gaming and moden audiences.

[leech]

1 minute ago, yrly said:

Jaguar wasn’t widely available at all Wal-Marts (none of them around here ever got any). Saturn and 3D0 sold badly. Jaguar didn’t attempt to include or fall back on any old library. Nostalgic gaming wasn’t a driving factor back then. It didn’t have additional functionality much beyond a games console. This it had to compete strictly on new production games.

Saturn had to compete with the 32x, Sega basically kept crapping on their fans with new addons and so by the time the Saturn was out in the USA, everyone was tired of their shenanigans.  And the SegaCD FMV games didn't help.

3DO was barely known and really expensive.

The Jaguar had the issue where Atari fans knew what it was, but Atari fans also knew how many issues Atari was having.  The kids barely knew what Atari was as they mostly had nintendos.  Atari having dropped out of game consoles for so many years didn't help matters at all.  But yeah, I never saw the Jaguar in any stores except Incredible Universe where I bought mine.  They went out of business even before the Jaguar 'died', so I got Rayman for a dollar and several other brabd new games for like 5-10 each.

[leech]

18 minutes ago, CPUWIZ said:

I have seriously considered making a PC just for that game, with VR gear etc.!  But I can wait, it'll still be the same game, just cheaper.

Ha, well the game came with the Index, so I got it for free.  Or did I pay 1000 for that game, I don't know which... ? 

In the grand scheme of things, people are overcharging 1k for GPUs now.  So if they ever drop in price you can count that 1k for the Index!

i still have some other games I need to play, like Boneworks for sure.

[yrly]

3 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Well, the assumption that the market is just jam-packed with people with so much nostalgia for an Atari logo that they'll plunk down $300+ on a console with an identity crisis and nothing exclusive to it, is something we disagree on. If the VCS was priced at $99, sure, but $300~? When you can get a Switch or Xbox Series S for that? I don't see it.

 

If people were really that crazy about it, then the IGG campaign would've done much better than it did (keep in mind, not all of the 11,000 pre-orders there were for the console, many were just for the joystick). Since it didn't, the chances of there being enough interest to even get into the store is extremely unlikely. That's even more evident after Wal-Mart pulled the VCS from their website. Right now, search for the VCS and you get the Flashbacks, a refurbished 2600 and even a refurb Jaguar. It's still on GameStop's website, but being on the web is different from being in the store; Earlier in this thread it was argued that there's interest from eBay scalpers, but even there the VCS is not that hot already, with no one bidding on the systems listed over $300. 

 

I really don't understand where you VCS fans are getting this idea from that the Atari brand is one of the hottest things on the market. Just because we like Atari doesn't mean that everyone else does. When Nintendo released the NES & SNES Classics, those were immediately sold out. Atari's never had that problem with the several Flashbacks by what I've seen. They were so "dime-a-dozen" that you could even find a pallet of them at places like Bed Bath & Beyond. When is the last time that something Atari sold so well that it was difficult to keep in stock? You have to go as far back as the 2600 to find that. 

 

At the moment, the gaming market wants the latest consoles from the Big Three. There's no indication that anyone outside of the few pockets of the internet (here, tiny pockets of Reddit/Facebook/Discord) cares about the VCS at all.  Want an indicator of what's hot? Check out Nintendo's latest tell to their investors - demand for Switches are so high that they not only expect it to outsell the Wii, they are seeing high demand for households to grab two Switches. Last time I heard Atari had a message for investors, they barely mentioned the VCS, spending more time talking about blockchain than the product that should be their flagship. 

This is the kind of impulse purchase the Wal-Mart crowd makes. $249-299 they won’t bat an eye, and the nostalgia is only part of the equation. $300 is like the magic cutoff it seems for the impulse, keep it below that there would be few issues selling them. 
 

IGG campaign metric is flawed due to the “VCS is a scam” posts you saw. You’re only gonna get so many to back such a thing because there are so many uncertainties. It’s not that demand isn’t there, it’s that people don’t trust the backing process. 

Atari Flashbacks seemed to be produced in the greatest quantity of retro consoles followed by Genesis. The other thing is the Flashback relies on games from a system was was physically durable and produced in massive quantities enough that you can still easily get a 2600. I have like 5 or 6 of them myself and I don’t even collect them. The NES though a lot of the front loaders developed pin issues. The popular 2600 games are all relatively easy to find but the SNES and NES stuff is sometimes a tad harder in the aftermarket and thus more expensive.

 

As far as scalpers the ebay units are pretty much all selling except insanely priced ones but this isn’t the kind of cool gamer run out and buy it’s more a see and impulse buy. As far as Atari’s board, they simply have no clue what to do with the product which isn’t surprising.

 

$249-299 put a pallet of these in a aisle and they’d sell. 

[The Historian]

3 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Atari SA needs to realise that treating both the company and potential customers with the sheer cynicism that they have is not a strategy for long-term success.  I don't want to give my money to a company that behaves the way they do towards the people they're asking to purchase their product(s) regardless of how much interest I may have in said product(s).

<soapbox>

1000 times this. They were practically hostile to their potential customers. But that also ties in to your next point which I won't quote here. Don't outsource everything. 

 

The "unofficial" reddit community succeeded (and continues to succeed), because it allowed people to voice their opinions, good or bad... so long as they didn't resort to personal attacks on each other. It allowed questions of Atari that were not easy to answer or may not have had good answers.

 

Silencing your critics and/or hiding the tough questions just makes it look like you've got something to hide or that you are unwilling to deal with it. A community will accept "We don't know", "We cannot answer that at this time" and "We do not have firm timelines at this point". Those are not phrases of failure, those are real, human answers to questions without good answers. True Fans will clearly be understanding about anything and the haters are gonna hate no matter what. But it's great masses in the middle that will watch every move you make and decide what they will do.

 

In my opinion, Atari and it's marketing agency mishandled things nearly every step of the way, from a Community and Customer communications perspective. They've lost a lot of good will along the way for products they could internally develop, but they are still finding a lot of success selling the games they still own and their logo to other companies who can bring good products to market. I don't think they will ever try something like this again. I believe they will make enough units to cover preorders and defects, and never mention it (they barely talk about it now) or consider "doing it themselves" ever again.

</soapbox>

Edited February 8, 2021 by The Historian
Typos and phrasing

[leech]

56 minutes ago, The Historian said:

In my opinion, Atari and it's marketing agency mishandled things nearly every step of the way, from a Community and Customer communications perspective. They've lost a lot of good will along the way for products they could internally develop, but they are still finding a lot of success selling the games they still own and their logo to other companies who can bring good products to market. I don't think they will ever try something like this again. I believe they will make enough units to cover preorders and defects, and never mention it (they barely talk about it now) or consider "doing it themselves" ever again.

Well they seem to have an active community on their founder's discord channel, and have been good so far about listening to issues with the VCS and following up on fixing them.  They're working toward something nice, but still dealing with growing pains. 

Sure there were some dumb moves, some shady ones, and just plain wackiness.  But I bet if we were behind closed doors in the 80s and 90s at Atari, I bet you we'd see the same or similar.  The difference is now with the internet, and their attempt at being transparent to backers, brought a lot of that shiftiness out.  Didn't help their case that they're also trying to do a cryptocurrency, which has it's own weird little feel-bads around it.  Especially when it's a 'me too' move like they did. 

We need to just realize they are a company that happens to own the Logo and IP of something we all love.  But yet they need to figure something to stay afloat as their Logo and IP isn't currently bringing in any cash outside of lawsuits, hotels or blockchain... The Hotel chain may even be considered their only actual legit business by some.  At least if I were an investor, that's the only thing I'd think they have going for them.  If they then can utilize their IP to get some developers working for them to push up the VCS, that would be another thing that would be interesting for an investor.  But that's yet to be seen.

I'm definitely a 'wait and see' guy at this point, as they actually managed to deliver something.  Which already puts them up higher than some of the other things I've backed.

 

Anyow, I think they're trying at least to do better.  Their support seem to be doing a fantastic job.  The fact they even have a support channel kind of amazes me to be honest, but it's there.

[Matt_B]

I see they've put a link on the VCS website to GameStop who are listing two bundles with ($399) and without ($299) controllers, so I guess that's your retail release.

 

The new date appears to be April 30. Does anyone reckon they'll hit it?

[AtariLeaf]

2 hours ago, Matt_B said:

I see they've put a link on the VCS website to GameStop who are listing two bundles with ($399) and without ($299) controllers, so I guess that's your retail release.

 

The new date appears to be April 30. Does anyone reckon they'll hit it?

I'm assuming that's US dollars. My guess is those bundles would be around 499 and 399 here in Canada which is a real tough price point considering the competition. 

 

I wonder if they ever see store shelves here considering that so much retro gear that shows up in the States never makes it here. 

 

I still don't see this selling well at retail to the average person who doesn't care about the Fuji logo and has better options at the same or cheaper prices. 

[OCAT]

9 hours ago, Matt_B said:

I see they've put a link on the VCS website to GameStop who are listing two bundles with ($399) and without ($299) controllers, so I guess that's your retail release.

 

The new date appears to be April 30. Does anyone reckon they'll hit it?

Someone mention GameStop?  ? ?  I'm in

 

7 hours ago, AtariLeaf said:

I'm assuming that's US dollars. My guess is those bundles would be around 499 and 399 here in Canada which is a real tough price point considering the competition. 

 

I wonder if they ever see store shelves here considering that so much retro gear that shows up in the States never makes it here. 

 

I still don't see this selling well at retail to the average person who doesn't care about the Fuji logo and has better options at the same or cheaper prices. 

As a Candian 6 hours away from you I can also say that I would be a little surprised, but I do expect to see this in the Walmart glass display cases, also I would also expect to see this in Canadian Toys-R-Us and EBgames "SELECT" locations as well.

Thing worthy of note, EB games in Canada= Gamestop

 

Unfortunately due to the Pandemic, I do not see any DEMO stations EVER hitting the floors.

Edited February 8, 2021 by OCAT

[Matt_B]

4 hours ago, OCAT said:

Someone mention GameStop?  ? ?  I'm in

Yeah, you've got to buy and hold... while someone else makes a killing on eBay. ?

[The Historian]

20 hours ago, leech said:

Well they seem to have an active community on their founder's discord channel,

Yeah, I feel like I covered that...

22 hours ago, The Historian said:

True Fans will clearly be understanding about anything

 

[Shaggy the Atarian]

22 hours ago, yrly said:

This is the kind of impulse purchase the Wal-Mart crowd makes. $249-299 they won’t bat an eye, and the nostalgia is only part of the equation. $300 is like the magic cutoff it seems for the impulse, keep it below that there would be few issues selling them. 
 

IGG campaign metric is flawed due to the “VCS is a scam” posts you saw. You’re only gonna get so many to back such a thing because there are so many uncertainties. It’s not that demand isn’t there, it’s that people don’t trust the backing process. 

Atari Flashbacks seemed to be produced in the greatest quantity of retro consoles followed by Genesis. The other thing is the Flashback relies on games from a system was was physically durable and produced in massive quantities enough that you can still easily get a 2600. I have like 5 or 6 of them myself and I don’t even collect them. The NES though a lot of the front loaders developed pin issues. The popular 2600 games are all relatively easy to find but the SNES and NES stuff is sometimes a tad harder in the aftermarket and thus more expensive.

 

As far as scalpers the ebay units are pretty much all selling except insanely priced ones but this isn’t the kind of cool gamer run out and buy it’s more a see and impulse buy. As far as Atari’s board, they simply have no clue what to do with the product which isn’t surprising.

 

$249-299 put a pallet of these in a aisle and they’d sell. 

If I'm understanding you correctly, the way to product success at retail are: 1) price 2) "build it and they'll buy" 

 

1) If that were true, then every sub-$300 gaming product ever placed in a Wal-Mart would be a smashing success. Odd that such logic didn't work out for the WiiU.

 

2) Playing off/paraphrasing the idea from Field of Dreams, game consoles aren't baseball fields in Hollywood movies. History is littered with the husks of failed consoles/PC/hybrid concepts, with Atari supplying plenty of those. There is no evidence that there's any demand for the VCS in any way outside of a miniscule blip in the gaming community. The only way it would ever "sell" is if it didn't have far superior and better backed products that consumers could buy.