The Atari VCS Controversies Thread

[racerx]

1 hour ago, AlecRob said:

Imagine if sega announced a new console and sega fans bitched about it like atari fans today are bitching about the VCS. That would be unthinkable!  Sega fans have been asking for a console for years, and i have no doubt they would snatch up whatever they put out without a second thought...even if it was a console-shaped PC like the VCS.     

I'd imagine if Sega released an underpowered pc in a vaguely Genesis shaped case that focused on middling streaming services and crypto without displaying any advanced, exclusive versions of classic properties weeks before shipping, Sega fans would be bitching, too.

[Matt_B]

 

2 hours ago, AlecRob said:

I’m not old or a brand loyalist. I’m just a young dude that thinks atari stuff has a cool aesthetic. 

 

i was born in 1995.  I have pretty much zero atari nostalgia.
 

how many times do i have to bring up that the 7800, Lynx, ST, and Jaguar weren’t even designed by the original atari engineers/team in sunnyvale, california.  Oh and the now-obscure Atari IBM PC compatible series of hardware, that the new VCS could be considered a descendent of... also not designed by the OG atari.  You pretty much have to get a heavy sixer, pong machine, atari 400/800 and other really early devices if you want ORIGINAL ORIGINAL atari. 

 I find the “not atari” argument to be really flimsy because of that.  People using that argument must hate the Lynx!! 
 

“Wah waahhh it’s an EPYX console!! Burn it at the stake!”    
 

atari ST was designed by an ex commodore employee.  Amiga was designed by an ex atari employee!  FFS

 

 

if you buy an intellectual property, it belongs to you.  atari, SA bought atari.  For l intents and purposes, they have every right to do business under that name.  They are a real company, they own it fair and square.
 

Imagine if sega announced a new console and sega fans bitched about it like atari fans today are bitching about the VCS. That would be unthinkable!  Sega fans have been asking for a console for years, and i have no doubt they would snatch up whatever they put out without a second thought...even if it was a console-shaped PC like the VCS.     

 

Obviously you're not old, but you are pretty much the definition of a brand loyalist if you'd think of getting something because it's got the right badge on it rather than whether what's inside is any good or not.

 

Believe it or not, but I didn't buy every single piece of Atari (or Sega) hardware despite growing up during their heyday. Rather, machines like the original VCS, the 8-bit home computers and also the ST (because 'real Atari' or not, the Tramiels at least knew something about computers) were worth having because they were impressive hardware at launch; it's not like you could go to their competitors for something much cheaper and with better software and games like you can nowadays. Some of the other Atari hardware wasn't so great though, and that tended to sell very poorly in comparison, so I obviously wasn't the only one who saw them that way. I've no great dislike for the Lynx either, other than the ferocious rate at which it consumes batteries. Epyx made great games throughout the 80s, so what's not to like about them designing a handheld?

 

If there was someone with that kind of pedigree behind the design of the (new) VCS, or it was offering similarly good hardware for the money, I'd probably be a bit more enthusiastic about it. However, it's the brainchild of a guy whose best bit of tech on his resume is a Minecraft wristband, who had to sue Atari to get paid, and it's low-end off-the-shelf technology at an overinflated price.

 

Sure, it's their brand and they can do what they want with it, but we don't have to like it.

 

47 minutes ago, IntelliMission said:

There are 2 huge problems with that theory, though:

 

1) The Amico doens't have "backers". It has investors, and Tommy is using some of his personal fortune too. There's no way this thing is not going to get launched.

 

2) The Amico doesn't compete with any Xbox, even if it the Xbox costs $300. Only a handful of potential Amico buyers that also are harcore gamers (most of them are retro gamers, casual and non gamers instead) will get an Xbox Series S instead of an Amico due to the Xbox "price bomb".

 

I think you've got me wrong there. I was responding to Bill's post and trying to contrive an, albeit unlikely, scenario in which the VCS ends up selling more and that's about the only way I can see it happen.

 

As he concluded, if both machines hit the market at around the same time it's hard not to see the Amico selling more seeing as it's the one that's actually going to get some exclusive games.

[Chopsus]

It always amazes me how the ATARI Brand Loyalists never let the truth get in the way of their deluded Atariality.

[MrBeefy]

Also did the Game Gear minis really get a great reaction? I remember hearing some complaining about those.

 

I think some people will enjoy their Ataribox. I don't think it is the same product that they were initially pitching it as. I think it will Male a good emulation box that looks nice. Just unfortunate it's as expensive as it is and you can already get super cheap emulation boxes.

 

Raspberry Pis aren't that hard to set up but what I don't think Ataribox people are thinking about is they are going to have to set up their own OS and still download and install what they want to use on the PC side. So in reality the Ataribox isn't even making the PC side any less inconvenient than what you need to do on a Pi.

[Bill Loguidice]

40 minutes ago, MrBeefy said:

Also did the Game Gear minis really get a great reaction? I remember hearing some complaining about those.

 

I think some people will enjoy their Ataribox. I don't think it is the same product that they were initially pitching it as. I think it will Male a good emulation box that looks nice. Just unfortunate it's as expensive as it is and you can already get super cheap emulation boxes.

 

Raspberry Pis aren't that hard to set up but what I don't think Ataribox people are thinking about is they are going to have to set up their own OS and still download and install what they want to use on the PC side. So in reality the Ataribox isn't even making the PC side any less inconvenient than what you need to do on a Pi.

I don't feel like the Game Gear Minis got a good reaction. They seem to be cool collectibles, but they just don't seem practical to use, which seems counter-intuitive. If they were a more usable size, I think the reaction would have been fine overall.

I agree with you that people will absolutely enjoy their Atari VCS's and no doubt do cool things with them. Since it's targeted primarily to hobbyists at this point, I think that's a given. Again, though, that's a relatively small market of enthusiasts and it's a relatively crowded field. After the "new car smell" wears off on the VCS, those DIY-minded individuals will no doubt be onto the next shiny DIY-friendly object. 

With the above in mind, if the VCS does actually release by the end of the year, I would expect not to hear much more about it from any source by the mid-point of 2021. We'll see, of course.

[Mockduck]

FYI since this thread is getting interest due to timing in the coming weeks, I'll go through the OP and give it an update in the near future. I tend to agree with you Bill (above), but I'm not actually sure this is meant to be a mass market device, although I'm sure no one at Atari would complain if it was. Anyone who thinks this will be a player in the upcoming Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo console battle is unlikely to be proven correct. Doesn't mean the thing won't be pretty sweet though for peeps like me. 

[Agillig]

10 hours ago, racerx said:

I'd imagine if Sega released an underpowered pc in a vaguely Genesis shaped case that focused on middling streaming services and crypto without displaying any advanced, exclusive versions of classic properties weeks before shipping, Sega fans would be bitching, too.

I believe this conversation was had in the old thread.   I was a huge Sega fan throughout their console years.  My beef with them now is that the quality of their games really fell off the map.  They can't be a functioning third party company, so yes, I would be disgusted if they tried to release the above product. 

 

@AlecRob, maybe you just had to be there to understand why this is not even close to the situation with the Jaguar and Lynx.  They both at least had some interesting games worth playing. Not trying to be condescending, just saying that the circumstances are completely different. 

[nyyle]

Not going to lie, I was looking at getting a VCS just to have a small console to bring around and use as a media box but the series s announcement has really changed my mind on the whole situation. £250 for a console with a controller that will actually play modern titles sounds a hell of a lot more interesting to me than a console that doesn't have any modern games announced and can't even be pre-ordered in my country yet. I thought this console was going to ship but when the only news they can give is that Plex will be on it I lose a bit of faith everyday

Edited September 10, 2020 by nyyle
Grammar

[The Historian]

13 hours ago, IntelliMission said:

The Amico doens't have "backers". It has investors, and Tommy is using some of his personal fortune too. There's no way this thing is not going to get launched.

• Backers refers to someone who contributes to a reward-crowdfunding campaign. You're either donating some money to get a reward or essentially, pre-buying a product. So, you're supporting/backing a project -- hence, a backer. They did offer "pre-orders" for a product not fully developed and that is not shipping until 2021. 
• Investment crowdfunding is a way to source money for a company by asking a large number of backers to each invest a relatively small amount in it. In return, backers receive equity shares of the company.

Amico has effectively done both.

13 hours ago, IntelliMission said:

Only a handful of potential Amico buyers that also are harcore gamers (most of them are retro gamers, casual and non gamers instead) will get an Xbox Series S instead of an Amico due to the Xbox "price bomb".

You're right... Retro, casual and non-gamers are most likely not going to buy a Series S. Why would they when the Switch is the better choice at the same price? It's market place is full of casual sub $5 games and of course most of Nintendo's classic games and more than couple "Collection" series from a few of the old school companies to pull in the retro crowd. And far, far better 3rd party developer support. I'll give you that Tommy carries a lot of weight in the gaming industry and is highly connected... but I'm not sure that's enough. I would absolutely love to be wrong about that, but I just don't see the long term value in an Amico.

 

As for this retro/casual gamer... nope not buying the Series S...

 

Gonna pre-order the Series X.

 

For me the Amico is just an interesting collectable.

Edited September 11, 2020 by The Historian

[Matt_B]

I wouldn't knock the Series S - or the One S for that matter - for casual/retro gaming. Although it's obviously AAA focused, there are loads of cheap and simple casual games, local multiplayer options, retro compilations and media/streaming apps in the Microsoft Store. The Switch maybe gets a better selection, but not by that much; you've really got to want Nintendo's own games and/or the ability to pick it up and take it with you before it starts to look a clear winner.

 

For anyone who thinks that Flashback Classics, Antstream and Plex are selling points for the VCS, the Series S will do them all too.

 

I do most of my retro/casual gaming on the PC anyway. The Switch is for AAA on the go. ?

[AtariLeaf]

Isn't comparing Atari from the 7800 or Jag years to the current Atari SA a little disingenuous? A major difference is that, yes, it was a different Atari in the mid to late 80s but it was still an electronics company with engineers and technical experts. The current company is nothing but an entity whoring out a logo. They have no in-house engineers and had to hire outside firms who quit for nonpayment.

Granted I could be wildly off about mid 80s Atari but it seems like an apples and oranges comparison to today's Atari

 

[IntelliMission]

11 hours ago, The Historian said:

On 9/10/2020 at 1:31 PM, IntelliMission said:

The Amico doens't have "backers". It has investors, and Tommy is using some of his personal fortune too. There's no way this thing is not going to get launched.

• Backers refers to someone who contributes to a reward-crowdfunding campaign. You're either donating some money to get a reward or essentially, pre-buying a product. So, you're supporting/backing a project -- hence, a backer. They did offer "pre-orders" for a product not fully developed and that is not shipping until 2021. 
• Investment crowdfunding is a way to source money for a company by asking a large number of backers to each invest a relatively small amount in it. In return, backers receive equity shares of the company.

Amico has effectively done both.

On 9/10/2020 at 1:31 PM, IntelliMission said:

Only a handful of potential Amico buyers that also are harcore gamers (most of them are retro gamers, casual and non gamers instead) will get an Xbox Series S instead of an Amico due to the Xbox "price bomb".

You're right... Retro, casual and non-gamers are most likely not going to buy a Series S. Why would they when the Switch is the better choice at the same price? It's market place is full of casual sub $5 games and of course most of Nintendo's classic games and more than couple "Collection" series from a few of the old school companies to pull in the retro crowd. And far, far better 3rd party developer support. I'll give you that Tommy carries a lot of weight in the gaming industry and is highly connected... but I'm not sure that's enough. I would absolutely love to be wrong about that, but I just don't see the long term value in an Amico.

 

As for this retro/casual gamer... nope not buying the Series S...

 

Gonna pre-order the Series X.

 

For me the Amico is just an interesting collectable.

 

1) Even if the Amico has taken pre-orders and has small investors, my reply was referring to a message that called every single Amico investor a "backer". However, most money from the Amico comes from big investors and Tommy himself. To say that "the backers will have their money back" was simply an incomplete statement. The word "investor" was required here, and what you say (which I was already aware of) does not contradict my point.

 

2) I'm glad you bring up the Switch, as it's more of a competitor to the Amico, but I was replying to someone who seemed to be saying that the Amico was competing with the Xbox (he then clarified he wasn't saying that, it was only an exaggeration). And while it's clear that the Switch has more family oriented games, it's also true that the Amico offers a totally different experience with simplified controls, no violence/sexual content whatsoever, a focus on edutainment/board games/motion control games and offline multiplayer right of the bat using smartphones as controllers (not to mention the classics reimagined), so to say that the Switch already does what the Amico offers is basically a lie.

 

3) It's great that you, as a retro gamer, will buy the Xbox Series X and are not too interested in the Amico. However, your particular case doesn't negate my point: that most retro gamers that plan to buy the Amico will not switch to the Xbox Series S after the price bomb, as they're totally different machines. With "retro gamer" I meant people who mostly play retro games, by the way. Most people in the Amico Q&A thread bought our last console in 1995-2000-2005.

 

I hope I didn't sound confrontational... Haha, just kidding (that's what Tommy says). ?

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, IntelliMission said:

 

3) It's great that you, as a retro gamer, will buy the Xbox Series X and are not too interested in the Amico. However, your particular case doesn't negate my point: that most retro gamers that plan to buy the Amico will not switch to the Xbox Series S after the price bomb, as they're totally different machines. With "retro gamer" I meant people who mostly play retro games, by the way. Most people in the Amico Q&A thread bought our last console in 1995-2000-2005.

 

A portion of the population on AtariAge is "unusual" to say the least. There are segments of this group who eschew HDTVs, let alone 4K TVs, haven't bought a modern console in at least a generation or two, claim to not be interested in many or even any of today's games even though every possible game type is represented, etc. 

Outside of specific budgetary constraints, I don't think anyone is buying or not buying an Amico, VCS, Xbox Series S/X, PS5, Switch/2.0, etc., because of actions taken by one or the other company, so in that I definitely agree with you (my only real argument in that regard has been value proposition or lack thereof). If you want an Amico or VCS, I can't see how it would impact your decision in any way with getting an Xbox Series S/X, PS5, or Switch/2.0, and the same in the reverse. They're completely different sets of offerings and offer completely different experiences.

 

Now, if you're limited to getting just one system for whatever reason, including the aforementioned budgetary reasons, then that to me is a different argument. I think that again comes back to relative value proposition as much as anything. In that, you're still almost always better off with one of the three major platforms simply because of the nearly unlimited choices in games that you're not going to get on the Amico or VCS. If someone here chooses an Amico or VCS over (or to put it better, INSTEAD OF) one of the big three, then I think that's more a reflection of the "unusual" portion of our AtariAge population than any wider trend.

By the way, make no mistake, I'm also very much an outlier myself, although in a different way. While I have not gone back to my prior days of wanting to own every possible videogame and computer platform ever, I still maintain a healthy collection of systems and still make sure I get every new system out there whenever possible (the main difference from the past being not necessarily keeping the previous generation anymore). I will be getting an Xbox One X, PS5, and Switch 2.0 once available. I also got in on the earliest opportunity to pre-order an Amico, even though it will never be a primary system for me and might not even be hooked up to a TV full-time (we'll see - the ball is in their court and we'll see how interested my family is). I have no plans at this time for a VCS as I don't need more project-centric systems (I have plenty of Pi, Odroid, FPGA, mini PC, etc., systems already).

[zzip]

On 9/8/2020 at 3:01 PM, Bill Loguidice said:

I don't think anyone except the most ardent superfan thought this would ever gain mass market acceptance. Atari themselves is not even positioning it to do that at this point by almost every post-crowdfunding action they've taken.

Superfans AND Supercritics.  (Supercritics who call it a complete failure because it obviously won't compete against the big 3)

 

I wonder what kind of sales numbers Atari is projecting for it?

Edited September 11, 2020 by zzip

[jamm]

If everyone is an outlier doesn’t that make no one an outlier...? ?

[Bill Loguidice]

4 minutes ago, jamm said:

If everyone is an outlier doesn’t that make no one an outlier...? ?

Most on this board I would think. We as a community are not necessarily representative of wider buying trends.

[Hwlngmad]

I will say this, we are very fortunate to have a whole slew of options which include the Atari VCS along with the upcoming Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X, PS5, and Amico along with existing products like the Xbox One S, PS4, PS4 Pro, and Nintendo Switch.  Truly a very nice time to be a gamer.

[Bill Loguidice]

7 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

I will say this, we are very fortunate to have a whole slew of options which include the Atari VCS along with the upcoming Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X, PS5, and Amico along with existing products like the Xbox One S, PS4, PS4 Pro, and Nintendo Switch.  Truly a very nice time to be a gamer.

Anyone who says otherwise is just flat-out wrong.  I always say now is the best time to be a gamer. We just keep adding to all that came before, including more ways to play all that came before. There are so many options it's mind boggling and you can never really run out of new things to explore, both past and present. 

[bmadgames]

43 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Anyone who says otherwise is just flat-out wrong.  I always say now is the best time to be a gamer. We just keep adding to all that came before, including more ways to play all that came before. There are so many options it's mind boggling and you can never really run out of new things to explore, both past and present. 

I think this is a great way to sum things up. For me personally, I'm glad that there are options like the VCS and Amico. I'll probably pick them both up (I've got both on order), but they'll never overtake Xbox/Switch/PS in terms of being my primary console. I'm obviously an outlier, but I think these experiences will offer something unique. To me it's a similar feeling to why I boot up an Atari Jaguar or N-Gage sometimes... Doesn't mean I like them more than my Switch, it just means other experiences can be fun at times too.

Edited September 11, 2020 by bmadgames

[Hwlngmad]

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Anyone who says otherwise is just flat-out wrong.  I always say now is the best time to be a gamer. We just keep adding to all that came before, including more ways to play all that came before. There are so many options it's mind boggling and you can never really run out of new things to explore, both past and present. 

100% agreed.  Definitely there are so many options for all kinds of gamers it is really cool to see.  I, myself, recently broke down and bought a very gently used Nintendo DSi along with a cheapo multicart.  I gotta say it is a really fun little device and I have been having a good time with it.  Definitely I am getting my monies worth out of it already, that's for sure.

[racerx]

8 hours ago, zzip said:

Superfans AND Supercritics.  (Supercritics who call it a complete failure because it obviously won't compete against the big 3)

 

I wonder what kind of sales numbers Atari is projecting for it?

I call it an absolute failure because at least to me, it's an absolutely redundant piece of hardware. There's nothing it does that I can't already do, which is the yardstick by which I buy new hardware.

[Chopsus]

8 hours ago, jamm said:

If everyone is an outlier doesn’t that make no one an outlier...? ?

It will depend on what your population of interest is and how you have defined it.

 

In terms of the VCS and the general population, then yes, everyone here is an outlier.

[Matt_B]

9 hours ago, zzip said:

Superfans AND Supercritics.  (Supercritics who call it a complete failure because it obviously won't compete against the big 3)

 

I wonder what kind of sales numbers Atari is projecting for it?

I don't think Atari had to compete against the big three, although that's not stopped them making numerous such comparisons in their marketing over the years inviting others to do so in kind. Rather, I'd think they'd have to look for a niche that would allow them to co-exist with the big three and I don't think they've got one.

Certainly, when you look at the sort of niche devices that have been at least moderately successful of late, they're things like the Linux/Android/Windows gaming handhelds like the Dingoo, Nvidia Shield and GPD Win, the sub-$100 plug-n-play retro consoles in which I'd include the Flashbacks, the even cheaper single-board PCs like the Raspberry Pi, FPGA devices like Spectrum Next and MiSTer, and cartridge-compatible retro-consoles like the RetroN series. Success isn't necessarily always measured by sales, but I'd think that you have to be offering something substantial that people can't just already get from a PC or games console at around the same price.

 

Not repeatedly delaying it while also hiding the details of its development behind a veil of secrecy probably helps too.

 

You're also giving Atari more credit than they deserve if you think they're going to be engaged in actual sales forecasting. I'd think that the 11,000 or so crowdfunded orders plus whatever extra they can glean from listing it on various online stores - which presumably won't be that many given the bad publicity, lack of unique features and high price - will be pretty much the extent of their manufacturing run.

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, racerx said:

I call it an absolute failure because at least to me, it's an absolutely redundant piece of hardware. There's nothing it does that I can't already do, which is the yardstick by which I buy new hardware.

Don't forget.  It does nothing that a piece of hardware 1/4 the cost can't do.  That's the measure of my useless purchases.

[OCAT]

I Don't know who is more sleazzzy, Atari or EA for shoving gambling into games & calling it "surprise mecahnics" or charging $$$ for Gas in a racing game.

I think the fun of games went away when internet began getting ubiquious. Lazy arse studios shipping empty CD's that only contain a link to download the game when they get around to finishing it TONK HAWK you hacks.

Mike Kennedy was not too crazy.. ok maybe he was but I think that a video game that is not multiplayer should not require a constant internet connection to play. The Coleco Chameleon should have had an internet connection for bug fixes, mild online multiplayer and hardware upgrade. When I mean multiplayer I am thinking just up to 4 players together with a direct link, no servers involved.

Edited September 12, 2020 by OCAT