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Game on Retron 77 contract wants you to sign over all rights and copyright?


Coolcrab

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Albert, its a personal choice - to sign or not to sign. Or to offer us a better version if you disagree. One thing though. Adding games was a last-minute idea, and if for whatever reason we cant come to terms in a timely manner - the system will simply come with no games. Im gonna have to sign the SD card image off to mass production real soon to ensure we can release it on the designated date. After the production starts, well only be able to include new games in future software updates.

Oh look! A can of worms! *pssht*

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Thomas, does it sound to you that I don’t care at all?

 

I’ve personally agreed to send a system devkit to you and two other members of this forum for free simply because I recognize your contributions and hope (but not giving you an obligation in any way - it’s simply a present), to possibly do some early troubleshooting together and make it a better product with an early patch if necessary for the sake of everyone?

 

I’m sorry, but your post above and this new one right here, isn’t it too harsh? Am I not clear that we don’t want to take anyone’s games, and this rant is all about a draft?

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Ive personally agreed to send a system devkit to you and two other members of this forum for free simply because I recognize your contributions and hope (but not giving you an obligation in any way - its simply a present), to possibly do some early troubleshooting together and make it a better product with an early patch if necessary for the sake of everyone?

I was also offered a system so I could test the large library of AtariAge 2600 homebrews, but that never came to pass for whatever reason.

 

Im sorry, but your post above and this new one right here, isnt it too harsh? Am I not clear that we dont want to take anyones games, and this rant is all about a draft?

If Hyperkin's intentions are not to "take anyone's games", that draft should never have been released as worded.

 

..Al

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Thomas, does it sound to you that I don’t care at all?

I am sure you care. But from your answers I am not so sure that you fully understand the situation.

 

The license agreement as it is written now is hurting Hyperkin's reputation. The hole discussion and speculation of the past were already quite critical and this only changed with your sudden announcement to use a newer Stella version and to follow the licensing rules. These stupid (sorry) license terms endanger the still fragile trust you have build up lately.

 

BTW: Mentioning the free devkit in this context can be misinterpreted too.

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Wow ... we really shouldn't be so inflamed over this.

 

Hyperkin: in the words of Beavis and Butthead: "THIS SUCKS, CHANGE IT"

 

Everyone else: knives down so they have a chance to respond.

 

Remove this part, it's completely offensive.

 

("ASSIGNOR") agree to assign and do hereby assign to HYPERKIN, INC. ("ASSIGNEE"), its successors and assigns, any and all worldwide right, title and interest to all copyrights, copyright registrations, copyrightable subject matter, including reproduction rights, know how, trade secrets, and any other intellectual property (“IP Rights”) which I have in the changes, enhancements, bug fixes, and contributions to the [INSERT THE NAME OF THE PROGRAM] (“the Program”) (where such changes, enhancements, bug fixes, and contributions, and any future revisions I make to such changes, enhancements, bug fixes, and contributions, are referred to as the "Work"), and any and all causes of action, including related damages and remedies, heretofore accrued in my favor for infringement of the aforesaid copyrights and IP Rights, to have and to hold the same unto ASSIGNEE, its successors and assigns, for and during the existence of said copyrights and IP Rights and all renewals and extensions thereof. I hereby waive any and all moral rights I may have in the Work, under 17 U.S.C. §106A or otherwise, for any and all uses of the Work.

 

Keep this part, it's fine. I have replaced ASIGNEE with HOMEBREWER.

 

I represent and warrant to the Hyperkin the following that:

  1. I did not engage any other individual or entity to assist me in the creation of the Work;

  2. I am the sole and exclusive owner of all the copyrights and IP Rights in the Work;

  3. The copyrights and IP Rights have not heretofore been pledged, hypothecated or otherwise

    encumbered, and is in all respects free and clear;

  4. To the best of my knowledge, the validity of the copyrights and IP Rights has never been

    questioned;

  5. I have not entered into a contract or made any commitment that will or may impair the HOMEBREWER'S

    rights hereunder; and

  6. I have the right and power to enter into this agreement.

HOMEBREWER will make the Work available under the same license as HOMEBREWER offers the Program.

I hereby indemnify and hold harmless the HOMEBREWER, its officers, employees, and agents against any and all claims, actions or damages (including attorney's reasonable fees) asserted by or paid to any party on account of a breach or alleged breach of the foregoing representations and warranties.

 

Was that so hard?

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Thomas, does it sound to you that I don’t care at all?

 

I’ve personally agreed to send a system devkit to you and two other members of this forum for free simply because I recognize your contributions and hope (but not giving you an obligation in any way - it’s simply a present), to possibly do some early troubleshooting together and make it a better product with an early patch if necessary for the sake of everyone?

 

I’m sorry, but your post above and this new one right here, isn’t it too harsh? Am I not clear that we don’t want to take anyone’s games, and this rant is all about a draft?

 

Very cool you offered to send a system devkit!

 

The company that "called themselves Atari" sent me a Dev Kit after I signed a similar contract with them.

 

The kit was signed by Nolan Bushnell who was on the board of directors at the time (I shared a pic on Atari age).

 

Sure seems like they are still Atari to me with Nolan involved again...

 

You seem to be getting a lot of harsh feedback on the forum; that's unfortunate. The Flashback portable console recieved harsh feedback from the same small but vocal minority. Don't be discouraged!

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If Hyperkin's intentions are not to "take anyone's games", that draft should never have been released as worded.

 

I 100% agree with this.

 

You seem to be getting a lot of harsh feedback on the forum

 

Well, he DID ask for feedback...

 

This contract is simply a draft from our lawyers, and if it contains any wrong parts, let’s talk about it.

 

I'm a firm believer that if someone doesn't want to hear feedback, as harsh as it may be, then they shouldn't ask for it. Sometimes harsh feedback is what drives action items to move forward. I don't see this as being a negative.

 

That being said, I'm little taken aback by some of the snappy reactions to the feedback from Hyperkin. I have never purchased anything from them before however I'm signed up for all their mailing lists and social media platforms due to this product which I am very much looking forward to. Personally I was hoping for a little bit more professionalism from a representative of the company posting to these forums. (yes, this is the kind of feedback I was referring to.)

 

I really do appreciate and love to support companies that I like and I feel treat their communities with respect. I don't know much about these guys and I hoped that they would be more upstanding and professional like the people who run AtariAge and less like the people who run *cough* "Coleco" *cough.*

 

I'll most certainly be paying closer attention to this thread and how they respond to their potential customers from here on out...

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Ok, I'm not a lawyer, but for shits and giggles, I had a go at rewriting the first paragraph (sorry if it sucks - but it might prove to be a start to get a better contract):-

 

In consideration of the sum of $0 (zero dollars) and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which is hereby acknowledged, I, __________________________________________ ("ASSIGNOR") agree to assign to HYPERKIN, INC. ("ASSIGNEE"), its successors and assigns, the right/permission to include [iNSERT THE NAME OF THE GAME/APPLICATION] ("the GAME") in their RETRON 77 games console, only. This granted right is limited only to the right to include [iNSERT THE NAME OF THE GAME/APPLICATION] ("the GAME") in the form/revision as supplied by the ASSIGNOR. It is to be acknowledged that the ASSIGNOR is not granting permission for the ASSIGNEE to make any changes to the supplied GAME. The ASSIGNOR retains all rights, the intellectual Property ("the GAME"). The GAME is supplied with the understanding that it is to be used solely for this iteration of the RETRON 77 game console. The GAME can only be used in any further iterations of the RETRON 77, with the expressed permission of the ASSIGNOR, the owner of the Intellectual Property. It is to be understood that the ASSIGNOR does not waive any and all moral rights they may have in the work (GAME), under 17 U.S.C 106A or otherwise, for any and all uses of the Work (GAME), other than for the expressed usage as outlined here. Effective as of the date of HYPERKIN, INC. (ASSIGNEE) signature, full acknowledge of ownership, and restrictions of use of the GAME is the be adhered to.

 

 

Again, not a lawyer - it might help as a start.

Edited by tdp
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Just saw this thread, and I don't get a chance to post a whole lot these days, but being a software developer (not a homebrew dev, sadly, but I work for a company as a mobile app developer), I did read over the contract, and as a layman and not a lawyer, it really and truly does sound like the entire first paragraph reads as, "Sign this and we own everything, up to and including your first-born son."

 

I know that may not be Hyperkin's intention, and I really and truly hope not, but it very much reflects the way the contract reads. As a software developer, I would never sign a contract like this.

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Got a new email from Chris. He basically says the same and asks me to make my own contract. I still think it's strange that the issue is dropped at the developers side.

 

"Thats fine the game is yours to do as you please. This is drafted contracted from our lawyers if you have your own contract that you would feel more comfortable with please send it my way for signature ?

 

 

 

Best,

 

 

 

Chris"

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It does seem fishy that even though the contract was referred to as a draft, there seems to be no interest on Hyperkin's part in offering a new version, leaving it entirely up to the homebrewers.

 

My concern with this contract is that it could possibly open AtariAge or Packrat or Good Deal Games or any other sites that sell homebrews up to legal action. If thise sites were to be shut down or forced to stop selling games, it would be a huge blow to the homebrew scene.

 

Is it just me, or does every story that ends with someone getting their life sued out from under them start with someone saying "Those are just words to keep the lawyers happy. They don't really mean anything."

Edited by KaeruYojimbo
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Guys, lets all just calm down.

 

Your message was loud and clear; the contract is not acceptable. Ive forwarded your suggestions to our legal department to work on a better version. I appreciate all your feedbacks - I truly do, even the harsh and emotional ones, and will act upon them..

 

Chances are that we wont be able to get the legal paperwork straight real fast, so the first batch of systems is likely not going to have any homebrew games. Sorry about that.

 

We do have a couple of signed contracts already, but we shall not use them to keep everyone in equal and fair conditions (unless the respective authors provide us with a direct confirmation). Again: it is not our intent to take advantage of anyone.

 

I hope this draws a line and settles everything. Thanks again.

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On a positive note. I sent a contract suggestion and Chris agreed to it. So for me the problem is solved! Maybe you can send something similar to the rest and still publish it with games?

 

"I, [name], the author hereby give Hyperkin Inc. the right to use my game called ‘Astronomer’ on their Retron 77 console in exchange for 0$. Hyperkin may use it as they wish for this console and this right may not be retracted in any way. However, this does not prevent the author of publishing, selling and distributing the game in any way.

 

Signature Author

 

 

 

Signature Hyperkin"

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On a positive note. I sent a contract suggestion and Chris agreed to it. So for me the problem is solved! Maybe you can send something similar to the rest and still publish it with games?

 

"I, [name], the author hereby give Hyperkin Inc. the right to use my game called ‘Astronomer’ on their Retron 77 console in exchange for 0$. Hyperkin may use it as they wish for this console and this right may not be retracted in any way. However, this does not prevent the author of publishing, selling and distributing the game in any way.

 

Signature Author

 

 

 

Signature Hyperkin"

Not clever. Everyone should be signing the same contract. And there's one potential loophole with the above.

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I've hidden a few recent posts which only served to distract from the process of finding consensus on the homebrew contract issue. I appreciate Andrew's willingness to engage with the developers and to take their feedback into consideration, and I'd like to see those discussions continue in a calm and civilized manner.

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Speaking of copyrights and licensing, did Hyperkin ever resolve the issue with using open source emulator code without attribution or licensing on the Retron 5? Several of the emulators used had no commercial used allowed clauses in their licensing terms including Genesis Plus GX and SNES9X.

 

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/retroarch-license-violations/

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Guys, lets all just calm down.

 

Your message was loud and clear; the contract is not acceptable. Ive forwarded your suggestions to our legal department to work on a better version. I appreciate all your feedbacks - I truly do, even the harsh and emotional ones, and will act upon them..

 

Chances are that we wont be able to get the legal paperwork straight real fast, so the first batch of systems is likely not going to have any homebrew games. Sorry about that.

 

We do have a couple of signed contracts already, but we shall not use them to keep everyone in equal and fair conditions (unless the respective authors provide us with a direct confirmation). Again: it is not our intent to take advantage of anyone.

 

I hope this draws a line and settles everything. Thanks again.

 

 

As I've told Thomas several times at Hyperkin. Software IP is expensive. This happened because you guys went the easy route and tried to get games for free. As always, my suggestion is to invest in IP. Also, no other company that does retro products is asking exclusive rights, Dreamgear, Dream Arcades, Doyodo, Retrobit, MSI, the Bridge Direct, New Wave Toys, all of them are signing non-exclusive contracts.

 

Should tell Homebrewers what is industry standard.

Edited by PikoInteractive
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Speaking of copyrights and licensing, did Hyperkin ever resolve the issue with using open source emulator code without attribution or licensing on the Retron 5? Several of the emulators used had no commercial used allowed clauses in their licensing terms including Genesis Plus GX and SNES9X.

 

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/retroarch-license-violations/

 

Nope. SNES9x is still there.

Edited by PikoInteractive
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Speaking of copyrights and licensing, did Hyperkin ever resolve the issue with using open source emulator code without attribution or licensing on the Retron 5? Several of the emulators used had no commercial used allowed clauses in their licensing terms including Genesis Plus GX and SNES9X.

 

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/retroarch-license-violations/

last thing I read about this was this>

https://www.eurogamer.net/amp/2018-02-09-the-retro-gaming-industry-could-be-killing-video-game-preservation

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No more SNES9X-related posts in this thread, please. The SNES9X issue deserves to be discussed, but as Thomas pointed out earlier, there's already another thread for that, so let's continue that discussion over there and keep this thread focused on contract issues.

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That's a fairly typical contract actually (from my experience) No they don't expect you to sign over your work, they want what's going to be best for them. In this case, the right to publish your games on their system for very little, or preferably for free.

 

People are to used to eula type contracts, and know little about real ones. On real ones haggling is expected, so their typically written as badly as possible, with the expectation that the final contract will be close to what they actually want (free access to put games on their system)

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Hm, all these homebrew-rights-discussions would not be necessary at all, when the Retron77 would have a SD-Card-Slot additionally to the modul-slot, that allows the user to load roms directly with it. This would be the buying-inducement number one for the most people i suppose and then every user can put on his SD-card what he want`s. 500 homebrew-games or other things. :) Then no games "must" be included from the beginning on, when the console was delivered.

 

Okay, many people now will try to use their Harmony on the Retron77 i suppose. Don`t know if compatibility to the Harmony is planed at least, when there is no direct SD-card-support on the Retron77? But i'd like to think NOT, when it's software-emulator-based. Or is still the chance for direct rom-support via SD-Card-slot or something like this on Retron77? Or have i even overlooked something when it comes to SD-Card support? The thread of the Retron77 is very long and i have not read all of the hundreds entries there.

 

I also never understood why for example the "Retron 5" don`t had direct rom-support via SD-card and why people must make the inconvenient way with those patch-trick to start a rom there? Is it so complicated for a producer of clone-retro-hardware or where is the crunchpoint (a legislation problem?) to include direct rom-support and if so, how AT@Games (Firecore) did it with clone-things like the "Mega Drive Gopher" handheld, "Atari Flashback Portable" handheld or the "Firecore Passport" which all allows exactly this? And i am sure, people like such a feature alot.

Edited by AW127
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