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R0ger

2 button joystick ?

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Using Sega controllers directly isn't really recommended. They take +5V from different pin, and on normal circumstances, they draw the current mostly form the data lines.

While I don't know about case where the Atari would get damaged, it's not really intended to be used like this. Worst I've see was that the controller stopped working after time, and working again after reconnecting.

At least use simple wire-swap to move +5V to where it should be.

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14 hours ago, R0ger said:

Using Sega controllers directly isn't really recommended. They take +5V from different pin, and on normal circumstances, they draw the current mostly form the data lines.

While I don't know about case where the Atari would get damaged, it's not really intended to be used like this. Worst I've see was that the controller stopped working after time, and working again after reconnecting.

At least use simple wire-swap to move +5V to where it should be.

But there are so many homebrew games for 2600/400/800/XL/XE that use and recommend the unmodified genesis controller nowadays. I use it since many years. You just should not use it with a Commodore 64 IMHO. The controller who stopped working after time, was it a standard Sega 3 button Joypad?

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6 minutes ago, biobern said:

But there are so many homebrew games for 2600/400/800/XL/XE that use and recommend the unmodified genesis controller nowadays. I use it since many years. You just should not use it with a Commodore 64 IMHO. The controller who stopped working after time, was it a standard Sega 3 button Joypad?

The games will work. You just need to move Sega's +5V to Atari's +5V, the rest should stay as is. But the worry should be about Atari, not the controller. If you are OK with powering the controller from data lines, go ahead. The power is most likely pretty small.

As for the controller which did that it was some Chinese copy, 3 button, IIRC.

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Using Sega controllers directly isn't really recommended. They take +5V from different pin, and on normal circumstances, they draw the current mostly form the data lines.
While I don't know about case where the Atari would get damaged, it's not really intended to be used like this. Worst I've see was that the controller stopped working after time, and working again after reconnecting.
At least use simple wire-swap to move +5V to where it should be.

It isn't really a data line. It's one of the analog pot lines (0V-5V). Because the Select line isn't used to access additional buttons the chip in the Genesis controller never switches. Maybe that reduces the load to something acceptable, I don't know.
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On 11/12/2019 at 7:51 PM, ascrnet said:

The table is very helpful, but still a bit complicated IMHO. How about adding the controller compatibility in the file name of every game? I mean, just changing the name of every game to:

 

"Defender 3But" works with 3 Button Controllers only

"Dropzone 1+2+3But" works with 1 or 2 or 3 Button Controllers

"Lode Runner 1+2But works with 1 or 2 or 3 Button Controllers but only needs 2 Buttons

 

And so on.....

 

I'd think not everybody will build or always use a 3 button controller. Many people love their unmodified Sega Genesis Pads or Sega Arcade power sticks. Already proven in the Atari 2600 scene since around 2010. Nevertheless, I personally will probably build a 3 button controller one day. 🙂

 

Cheers

Bern

 

P.S. What about hacking good old Choplifter for 2 buttons. Like the 5200 version? 🙂

 

 

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Personally I'm not fond of the idea of powering a pad from what is an I/O pin. when I'm using a Megadrive / Genesis pad on my Atari or Amiga, I use a simple adaptor I built that corrects the situation by running pad pin 5 to computer pin 7, and pad pin 7 to computer pin 7 via a resistor. No modifying of the pad required, it's powered correctly, and it's correctly set for 2-button use.

 

Variations on this are also possible: connecting pin 7 of the pad to pin 5 of the computer lets software read all 4 buttons on the pad (assuming pin 5 can be controlled as an output), and adding some diodes also protects the C64 against damage while not affecting operation on Atari systems.

 

Edit: As an aside, a Sega Mastersystem controller is actually wired correctly for Atari 2-button use and doesn't carry redundant buttons, so that might be a better option for some.

Edited by Daedalus2097
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23 hours ago, Daedalus2097 said:

 

Edit: As an aside, a Sega Mastersystem controller is actually wired correctly for Atari 2-button use and doesn't carry redundant buttons, so that might be a better option for some.

Sorry, this is not correct. At least mine does not work as a 2 button pad at Atari 2600/400/800/XL/XE. Is'nt there missing a connection between Pin 9 and 7?

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On 11/22/2019 at 9:30 AM, biobern said:

The table is very helpful, but still a bit complicated IMHO. How about adding the controller compatibility in the file name of every game? I mean, just changing the name of every game to:

 

"Defender 3But" works with 3 Button Controllers only

"Dropzone 1+2+3But" works with 1 or 2 or 3 Button Controllers

"Lode Runner 1+2But works with 1 or 2 or 3 Button Controllers but only needs 2 Buttons

 

 

Good idea, but that information should go on the wiki  👍

https://github.com/ascrnet/TestJoy2B/wiki/Games

 

another breakthrough, first design of the Yoy 2B+

joy.thumb.png.b848012b15ea666df60827abfed1f950.png

 

regards

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1 hour ago, ascrnet said:

another breakthrough, first design of the Yoy 2B+

joy.thumb.png.b848012b15ea666df60827abfed1f950.png

 

regards

Okay, cool. But looks as if the Joystick (Sanwa compatible?) would collide with the fire buttons. Or how big is this thing?

 

Regards

Bern

 

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49 minutes ago, biobern said:

Okay, cool. But looks as if the Joystick (Sanwa compatible?) would collide with the fire buttons. Or how big is this thing?

 

Of course you do not have the exact measurements, I am waiting for the parts to arrive from AliExpress 😁

 

Regards

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8 hours ago, biobern said:

Sorry, this is not correct. At least mine does not work as a 2 button pad at Atari 2600/400/800/XL/XE. Is'nt there missing a connection between Pin 9 and 7?

Yeah. It needs a pull-up resistor of 270 to 660 ohms between pin 9 and 7. The only thing you can say is that there are no active parts trying to draw power from a pot line, and that the dpad and first trigger are properly connected for an Atari. So it can work as a one button pad, but needs the pull-up resistor for the second button (which connects to pot A).

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I am also working on a 3 button joystick case

 1941086523_JoystickBox.thumb.png.972a11491e480b24efa06ef269ec5056.png

Fujinet is currently taking up my spare time

 

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1 hour ago, manterola said:

According with this schematic, buttons b and cof the genesis controller work out of the box... As buttons 1 and 2 of Joy2B+. 

https://images.app.goo.gl/HxRT3Vx6aXULiC8z5

 

Basically, all the B inputs to the ls157 are passed to the output, always. 

 

The problem with the MD pad is that other than up and down, all the other lines are being actively driven by a TTL chip that is being powered through a potentiometer line pulled high on the Atari with a fairly high resistance. It's amazing the chip works at all, but that's TTL for you.

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10 hours ago, biobern said:

Sorry, this is not correct. At least mine does not work as a 2 button pad at Atari 2600/400/800/XL/XE. Is'nt there missing a connection between Pin 9 and 7?

Oops, my apologies. Decades of thinking of the "Atari" standard on most systems being pin 6 for button 1 and pin 9 for button 2, with both simply being a pull-to-ground. I didn't realise the Atari itself didn't pull the pin up like many other implementations of the "standard". Still, adding a resistor to the pad is a simple thing, and it should still work as intended on the Mastersystem too.

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1 hour ago, Mr Robot said:

I am also working on a 3 button joystick case

 1941086523_JoystickBox.thumb.png.972a11491e480b24efa06ef269ec5056.png

Fujinet is currently taking up my spare time

 

Looks more ergonomical, but may still tilt if used brutally on a table. I'll build a similar joystick based on this case: https://www.buerklin.com/de/Produkte/Elektromechanik/Gehäuse-und-Zubehör/Pultgehäuse/PULTGEHÄUSE-190-Ausf-I/p/30H1063

 

I already have it and it's pretty stable.

Bern

 

 

 

Edited by biobern

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15 hours ago, biobern said:

Looks more ergonomical, but may still tilt if used brutally on a table. I'll build a similar joystick based on this case: https://www.buerklin.com/de/Produkte/Elektromechanik/Gehäuse-und-Zubehör/Pultgehäuse/PULTGEHÄUSE-190-Ausf-I/p/30H1063

 

I already have it and it's pretty stable.

Bern

 

 

 

It has the same dimensions as this stick and thats completely stable. The case you list above is actually a bit smaller and it looks thin enough at the front that you may have to mount the stick closer to the back than you'd like. If you already have the case and are happy it will work, that's all that matters. As long as you get the stick you want, go for it. The more 3 button joysticks are plugged into 8bit Ataris the more chance programmers will support them in software.

 

Whatever you end up building, my Multifire board will make it easier, see my sig, the gerbers are free just get a board printed. As a minimum you just need two 330Ω resistors to get it working.

 

I might play around with putting a slope on my case design to make it more XL shaped. Thanks for giving me the inspiration!

 

On 11/5/2019 at 5:26 PM, Mr Robot said:

IMG_2957.jpeg

IMG_2958.jpeg

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Mr Robot said:

I am also working on a 3 button joystick case

 1941086523_JoystickBox.thumb.png.972a11491e480b24efa06ef269ec5056.png

Fujinet is currently taking up my spare time

 

nice your design 🤩, I am more classic CX-40 😅
 

regards
 
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22 hours ago, Mr Robot said:

 

It has the same dimensions as this stick and thats completely stable. The case you list above is actually a bit smaller and it looks thin enough at the front that you may have to mount the stick closer to the back than you'd like.

 

The case is 190x140mm! The dimensions listed on the linked website are wrong!

Please look here for the true specs: 

https://www.buerklin.com/medias/sys_master/root/h3a/h60/8869137743902/8869137743902.pdf

 

A Sanwa compatible arcade stick will right fit in. Slightly above the middle, but that's what i want. My hands can rest on the case then. I'd like a little larger case but I did not find a black one that suits me exactly.

 

I even have a good 3D-Printer so theoretically I could print out a case if I had an STL-File for it. 🙂

What are the dimensions of your case please?

 

Cheers

Bern

 

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On 11/23/2019 at 10:18 PM, Mr Robot said:

I am also working on a 3 button joystick case

 1941086523_JoystickBox.thumb.png.972a11491e480b24efa06ef269ec5056.png

Fujinet is currently taking up my spare time

 

That would be a cool thing to have, especially if it can be made to look XL or XE ish.
I'd like something with the buttons on the left though. Even though I am right handed years of cx-10 / cx-40 use and the associated muscle memory mean that operating a joystick with my left hand just feels plain wrong 

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On 11/25/2019 at 7:16 AM, biobern said:

What are the dimensions of your case please?

190x105x65 but that is likely to change. I can go up to 220x220

 

2 hours ago, mimo said:

I'd like something with the buttons on the left though. Even though I am right handed years of cx-10 / cx-40 use and the associated muscle memory mean that operating a joystick with my left hand just feels plain wrong 

I have similar issues, a joystick that I pick up and hold feels wrong with the stick in my left hand but years of arcade play have trained me to prefer it that way round for a tabletop stick. I trialed a stick with the buttons on the left but it felt wrong trying to get to more than one button with my left hand, my thumb is the only digit I can fire with on that hand.  This sits on a desk so it feels arcadey and natural that way around, it's trivial to reverse in the model though so no problem just making two versions for righties and lefties

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My 3 Button Stick using the 190x140mm-case mentioned above. The small handrests work very well. I would not build something without them.

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_10f5.jpg

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There is not much room inside. To gain some stability and weight, I decided to use the metal mounting plate delivered with the Sanwa compatible stick. This did cost me a millimeter in height and I ended up drilling a hole in the bottom to gain space. 😞

Next time, I would try not to use the metal mounting plate and install the joystick some millimeters closer to the backside. Then I don't need the hole.

I still think this is not a bad case for the job, cause it is as flat as possible and allows a little bit of ergonomic handrest.

 

Bern

 

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_10f2.jpg

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_10f3.jpg

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I use cone drills. They don't center perfectly either though. Mounted drill and fixed object is the best way. If you do it in your hands, just drill a bit, check how off it is, and try to correct it by pushing to the side. I usually leave last few tenths of mm to finish it with file.

One day I will make 2D laser cutter, and that should solve the problem once for all :-D

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