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1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Okay but you keep going on about everything the Ford Pinto does and then claim your not talking about the pinto... since you didn't say pinto. Whatever you say wink wink nudge nudge.

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8 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

If you believe I was somehow implying some context to the C64, that's your problem, not mine.

Discussion over.

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Posted (edited)

if using your 30 percent loss figure were true.. the Atari would still be 1.254 Mhz give or take as opposed to what after doing the math on that pinto?

So that discussion is over for sure.

Edited by _The Doctor__

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Just now, _The Doctor__ said:

if using your 30 percent loss figure were true.. the Atari would still be 1.253 Mhz as opposed to what after doing the math on that pinto?

So that discussion is over for sure.

Now lets run the 6502 in the A8 at the same speed as the 6510 in the C64 and see how well that translates.

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Posted (edited)

The 6510 has a two-phased clock, and accesses memory only in one phase. The VIC accesses memory in the other phase which is not on both sides of the cycle at 1 MHz (1.02 give or take, there are some timing issues). The VIC also steals extra cycles if needed through the AEC signal on the C64 the VIC-II chip's output on every cycle is controlled by a byte of text memory (and color memory, which is fetched at the same time) and a byte of character-shape memory. For each row of text, the VIC-II chip will have one scan line where it needs to fetch both kinds of data, using both halves of every cycle to do so (stealing the bus from the CPU) it will then store the text data that was fetched, so that on remaining seven lines of each text row, it can use its half of 40 cycles to fetch character data associated with the already-fetched 40 bytes of text. This is in addition to the other bus use as outlined in my previous posting. Continuing on as is customary displaying eight scan lines of text with all eight sprites showing would require fetching 616 bytes of data, but there are only 520 cycles every 8 lines, so there would be no way to avoid having the VIC-II chip steal at those cycles from the main CPU. I don't see where you get the idea that it's any better than any other machine.

In comparison it's a fact the Apple didn't need to steal any cycles in the way it did most things so would that mean you like the Apple machine as a result now? It's a mixed bag no matter the system...

Edited by _The Doctor__

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Posted (edited)

Dear gawd. Honestly, I could state the sky is a definite shade of brown today, and you'd assume I'm somehow trying to bring the C64 into the discussion. The reality is you have a very large chip on your shoulder regarding the C64 and see context where none exists - Seriously, let it go. The C64 is the younger machine and Commodore didn't get an Apple II and an A8 and say "let's build a shittier machine" even if the case is brown.

 

[Sigh]

 

As for your quote, it appears to be out of context and possibly incorrect - Although it has to be stated it's all over the place and I have no idea if the author is talking about strictly character data in text mode, or sprite data. As the quote seems to mishmash both scenarios.

 

Essentially, the VIC-II will pull AEC low and gain bus priority every eight scan lines to check the location of the character pointer (remember, each character is an 8x8 matrix, and the VIC-II only needs to know the location of the character pointer at the beginning of the first line drawn for a new 8x8 matrix). This is called a bad line.

 

So every bad line, yes, the VIC-II will take bus priority halting the 6510 (essentially DMA). In all other text mode instances the 6510 and the VIC-II will share the bus like an Apple II in an interleaved fashion. This is vastly different and more efficient to the way ANTIC constantly steals clock cycles resulting in a realistic clock speed of about 1.3Mhz with the screen enabled depending on graphics mode regarding the A8.

 

In relation to AEC being pulled low to 'fetch' color memory, this is bullshit - It's bullshit as color memory isn't even on the system bus, color memory has it's own bus directly to the VIC-II, it doesn't use the system bus at all.

 

So, for hopefully the last time, this is the reason why the thread I mentioned highlighted a difference of effectively 'bugger all' in relation to FPU performance on the C64 with the screen on vs screen off compared to the huge discrepancy highlighted on the A8 with the screen on vs screen off (DMA ON vs DMA OFF). I have screen shots proving this, I have no intention of displaying them here as the two of you have successfully dragged this thread way off topic as it is. Once more, clock for clock, the C64 is a vastly more efficient design, and you can have different color characters on the one line independent of background color.

 

FJC's quote stated it perfectly, and really, ignoring any imagined implied context is all that needs to be said:

 

Quote

Anyone vaguely familiar with the machine architecture already knows that ANTIC DMA steals a measurable number of CPU cycles.

Considering the inefficiencies surrounding early forms of DMA, that's how the A8 works. It's impressive for it's age, but it is the older machine. Implementations did improve as time advanced. I have both machines and enjoy both.

 

They're both Pinto's, the C64 simply gets more power per litre of capacity.

Edited by Mazzspeed
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1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

They're both Pinto's, the C64 simply gets more power per litre of capacity.

In terms of bus-access (per-unit-of-time), yes, it can be said so.

 

Now, between two engines here I have pretty-itsy close to 900 hp. One yields about 84 hp/liter, good for ~200mph, and the other 180 hp/liter, good for ~160 mph. It is not HP/liter that determines how fast you can ultimately go (eg, the net result).

 

PDM-player is an example of the above, and on the other side of the spectrum (and with more brutality), we have Avery's video-player, were the roles reverse, being Antic the real monster, while 6502 getting just about the right amount of time to sequence and deliver audio-track, all in real time, both single-handedly.

 

The key concept surfaces here again: on the A8, we have a choice of performance "profile".... and a choice that does not exist in some other platforms. How it gets implemented (pluses and minuses) is certainly important, but (much more important) is what can we DO and how FAR we can go with such choices.

 

That's the real bottom-line. 👍💪

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

PDM-player is an example of the above, and on the other side of the spectrum (and with more brutality), we have Avery's video-player, were the roles reverse, being Antic the real monster, while 6502 getting just about the right amount of time to sequence and deliver audio-track, all in real time, both single-handedly.

I see. So it's implied that I'm pushing a certain C64 vs A8 agenda, when it's obvious that you're the one pushing such an agenda based on this comment in relation to your previous comments. Interesting.

 

I can quite easily play back 44.1Hz WAV files on the C64 with no internal modification other than my 1541 UII+ cart via the internal SID, I can also play back 22Hz Amiga IFF audio files with outstanding audio quality via the internal SID. The software that does so was released in 2011, I'm currently working with the developer to improve it even more.

 

Furthermore, the C64 can playback real time video with better quality than Avery's player can achieve at 24-30 (so movie quality) FPS. This has also been around for many, many years now. You've also seen 60FPS video from the C64 at better quality than Avery's player can achieve in other links posted in similar threads where you start pointless flame wars.

 

Why you two chose to turn this into some bullshit A8 vs C64 flamewar is beyond my comprehension. Get over yourselves.

Edited by Mazzspeed

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6 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

I see. So it's implied that I'm pushing a certain C64 vs A8 agenda

Don't know about that.

 

But mine is 100%, through-and-through, day-in and day-out ATARI (like this thread or our sub-forum are about, for instance).

 

Hope you don't mind (because it will always be so).  👍💪

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Don't know about that.

 

But mine is 100%, through-and-through, day-in and day-out ATARI (like this thread or our sub-forum are about, for instance).

 

Hope you don't mind (because it will always be so).  👍💪

Not interested in your self indulgent and mostly misinformed ignorance mate. Once again, I didn't bring Commodore 64 discussion into this thread.

 

I was discussing SD cards.

Edited by Mazzspeed

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1 minute ago, Mazzspeed said:

I didn't bring Commodore 64 discussion into this thread

Neither I did.

 

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I think Commodore is North and Atari is South - or was it the other way around ? Anyways, it's always North vs. South and thereby forgetting that both are American.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

This forum needs a better ignore feature.  It should block:

  • quotes
  • new posts
  • replies
  • mentions

of the people that are blocked else I still end up reading pages of shit from them.

Edited by Stephen
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Posted (edited)

as usual you give example of how you feel your fave machine is superior this or that then say your not and everyone should clam up about whatever other machine can do as it's the lame c64 vs war. Thanks for continuing to do what you say you don't do in yet another thread.

 

You know what mazzspeed, it seems a number of topics your in ends up about the C64, not seeing this with other forum members... that's the data point that probably sticks in most peoples heads when you allude to aspects of it at seemingly any chance to do so, even if you don't say it's formal name in bold letters. also, the chips don't magically or effectively operate at higher clock rates because your incorrect perception of how that works.

 

you ask for rhetorical info about your fave machine and then can't accept the facts that have been discussed not only here but on forums dedicated to your fave machine. You discount that information as if it fictitious or incorrect yet I bet smart forum members can easily see it's online and for the most part correct. I'm glad you are going to help improve your fave machine, how about we dedicate improving the machine this forum is about though. Or are we just perusing forums to get ideas to help our real goal of improving our fave machine while touting and going on about it in forums for others peoples fave machines? Why can't you just talk about the machine the forums are about in the forums that are about them?

 

Since we can play the whole movie without all sorts of help as machine pulls the data from the hard drive and ANTIC does all the work, you mention something about quality or supposed high quality snippets (since that's all they are). It goes on and on, you dredge little things like that up, then pretend your not.

 

Anyone vaguely familiar with both of the machines architecture knows that ANTIC DMA steals a measurable number of CPU cycles and the same is true of the VIC chip for a good number of it's tasks as well.

Edited by _The Doctor__
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8 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Thanks for continuing to do what you say you don't do in yet another thread.

We could also be thankful for him being (at least once) truly forthcoming by explicitly stating (in our own forum) that he's actively helping the developer of... yet another platform's audio player... when I naively thought he would be kindly and diligently helping Xuel, instead... 😜

 

Well, just another, business-as-usual day in AA... 😉

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29 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Since we can play the whole movie without all sorts of help as machine pulls the data from the hard drive and ANTIC does all the work, 

Absolutely!

 

And just like PDM-player, the A8 does not need a prosthetic prescription to do so! 😂💪

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1 hour ago, Stephen said:

This forum needs a better ignore feature.  It should block:

  • quotes
  • new posts
  • replies
  • mentions

of the people that are blocked else I still end up reading pages of shit from them.

I agree, I'd much prefer it work like it does on Facebook, where once you block someone they cannot see your posts, nor can you see theirs.  It would also be nice if quotes weren't displayed.  Posts where someone is tagged (which I assume is what you mean by "mentions") are a little more problematic -- if you hide such posts, that could certainly alter the flow of conversation that you might want to see. 

 

A more comprehensive block/ignore feature is not something I am going to implement, but I can see if anyone has already suggested that to Invision.  If not, I can make such a suggestion.  It's possible a third-party has already written a more comprehensive ignore feature, but if something like that is not well-written, it can slow down the forum, so I'd prefer it be something Invision implements themselves.

 

 ..Al

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I suppose a perfect "block" is not possible, because for example in case of the last few pages of this thread, you'd be left mostly with just one person's posts and it'd look silly. It'd probably need to be an AI-driven blocker :)

 

Guess we just have to live with this kinda stuff. Maybe it's not such a bad concept after all, I don't like bubbles either....though this particular feud really is a little bit too much, since it now seems to pop up in every A8 thread....

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Posted (edited)
On 7/20/2021 at 3:41 PM, flashjazzcat said:

That's real commitment. :)

 

Did something happen here while I was away for a few hours ?

 

 

Hmmm. Anyway, the Test candidates have arrived….

looks like the most expensive one also got the most expensive packaging, LOL.

Hope I can open the packaging and still return them….

 

i love how the “slowest” one has a camera on it so you know you can use it with your camera, and then the “middle” one shows a camera, so you know you can use it in a camera, but then the “fastest” one shows a camera so you know you can use it in a camera…………

 

Rightttttttttttt……

 

57A8C4B2-619B-4136-B172-E7A6E161EE01.jpeg

Edited by Level42

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Level42 said:

Did something happen here while I was away for a few hours ?

No idea. I employed the block feature even more extensively. :D

 

Cards look nice, anyway. Disappointing to see that none of the packaging shows pictures of Ataris.

Edited by flashjazzcat
typo
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18 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

No idea. I employed the block feature even more extensively. :D

 

Cards look nice, anyway. Disappointing to see than none of the packaging shows pictures of Ataris.

LOL....I was reading the (Dutch wikipedia page about SD cards the other day and it listed some devices that SD cards were often used for.....I was soooooo tempted to add A8/ SIDE3 :D

Formatting and copying files as we speak....

  • Haha 1

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1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

Great! So we're back on topic. Lets see how these cards go as PDM player should work perfectly.

I put the results in the U1MB 4.0 firmware thread (not sure why actually.....)

PDM now fine, but there are other issues !

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3 minutes ago, Level42 said:

I put the results in the U1MB 4.0 firmware thread (not sure why actually.....)

PDM now fine, but there are other issues !

Ok, so now you're getting menu corruption?

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On 5/29/2018 at 7:02 AM, Xuel said:

FujiConvert converts audio to Atari 8-bit media using various playback methods:

https://lybrown.github.io/fujiconvert/

Here is an example converted to a The!Cart cartridge playing in stereo on dual POKEYs at 34kHz using the PCM4+4 method:

 

money pcm44 stereo 34125Hz thecart pal.zip (23MB)

I'm still working out the bugs and adding more features. Feedback appreciated.

 

Fun! Is there a way to download the source code for the Atari executable file?

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