Intellivision Entertainment launching a NEW Intellivision console

[mr_me]

Mapping 16 directions to four works fine, and better than an 8-way control mapped to four. Mapping 16dir to eight gives you a controller skewed about 11deg. It's not that big a deal, in most cases you'd just use 16 directions instead of eight e.g. commando. Other than snafu I don't know why programmers went with 8dir with some mattel games.

 

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Edit:

Either way I think some marks embossed in the surrounding plastic ridge might help players find those directions.

Edited July 9, 2018 by mr_me

[m-crew]

Thanks Nurmix for all the updates so far on this console, Im very excited for this project and its final release of the detail regarding IE console.

 

Oh don't forget the cart port.

[+DZ-Jay]

Mapping 16 directions to four works fine, and better than an 8-way control mapped to four. Mapping 16dir to eight gives you a controller skewed about 11deg. It's not that big a deal, in most cases you'd just use 16 directions instead of eight e.g. commando. Other than snafu I don't know why programmers went with 8dir with some mattel games.

Screenshot_2018-07-09-08-30-11.png

 

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Edit:

Either way I think some marks embossed in the surrounding plastic ridge might help players find those directions.

Gotcha. I guess in my mind, input handling for games is much more complex than merely directly mapping signals, but involves heuristics and state machines to determine user intent and to provide for a smoother experience. That, to me, is an important focus that has been lost or is unappreciated in modern home-brews on any console.

 

I agree that if you merely map 16 to 8 directly, the "dead-zones" are rather narrow, increasing the margin of user error (i.e., sliding the thumb off the intended target). Apart from the fact that "dead zones" themselves are irritating, since the user may not expect input to be dropped wholesale in any circumstance.

 

Then again, 8 directions to me feels like the wrong model for a system that supports 16. I can see why 4 is used (direct cardinal points in a two-dimensional plane); and for hardware that supports only 8, it offers greater accuracy and range of motion than just 4.

 

However, if you are trying to increase accuracy and your hardware supports 16 directions, why bump it up halfway? Why not go to the full extend of the disc? *shrug*

 

dZ.

[mr_me]

Yes, and likewise I'm not thinking about debouncing and the other stuff that programmers do to make it smooth. But there shouldn't be any dead zones, all 16 directions are mapped to eight. It's just that the centre of the north zone, for example, is off by about 11deg. I think the System Changer mapping to eight directions has eight dead zones and is a reason it doesn't work well.

Edited July 9, 2018 by mr_me

[+DZ-Jay]

Yes, and likewise I'm not thinking about debouncing and the other stuff that programmers do to make it smooth. But there shouldn't be any dead zones, all 16 directions are mapped to eight. It's just that the centre of the north zone, for example, is off by about 11deg. I think the System Changer mapping to eight directions has eight dead zones and is a reason it doesn't work well.

In any case, I agree that an analog disc controller would be preferable, and should still be workable for the classic games by clever mapping and heuristics.

 

dZ.

[+Lathe26]

My two cents: go with analog.

 

It's easier to write a game that treats an analog pad as a 4-way / 8-way / 16-way pad than it is to write a game that really needs analog input but only has 4-way hardware inputs.

[+nurmix]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'm not opposed to analog if it can be made to work well, and doesn't add significantly to the cost of the controllers. Keep in mind something as seemingly small as $1.25 more in parts per controller comes out to an additional $1,250,000.00 in production costs on 500,000 consoles. That said, I'll run your suggestions past Bill Fisher and our hardware guys when we meet this week.

[atari-dna]

So new (all?) games are tethered to the console only? They can’t be experienced through a multicart/SD type of device? Like a walled garden?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[freewheel]

I don't know the answer to that, without knowing the details of the game. If it's a legally licensed game or an original game without IP issues then possibly - depending on whether or not the hardware is open to allow that, and I don't know at this point. But I do know that you could make that game available in the online store.

 

 

What's the overall thinking on indie homebrews in the original store? I'm talking about us casual hobbyists (ie: me)? Specifically on the "old" side, the $1-2 games?

 

You could go the Apple Store route of "eh, anything's good enough so long as we get our 30%" and end up with 300 fart apps. Great for developers looking to make a quick buck. Less so for quality control.

 

Or the highly-controlled, approval-first method. With more than just a click-through licensing agreement. Possible fees required to get a title hosted. Keeps the quality up, but could shut out a lot of otherwise talented people.

 

INTV homebrew has such a miniscule market that even though people think that the $50-60 typically charged can be highway robbery... these are a labour of love. And ROM sales are a very, very tiny bit of gravy added on. No one's making more than a few dollars an hour working on these. But $1-2, to a market of tens or hundreds of thousands? With a low enough barrier to entry, it would give folks like me an excuse to really spend time on this.

 

[freewheel]

To add my 2 cents on a few things, because I'm a bit in the middle ground on stuff:

 

1. Cart port: add-on only. We're talking a likely market of 4-500 people here. Low thousands at the absolute most optimistic estimate. It's extremely low value if the production numbers and market size are anywhere close to what's being hinted at. This could easily sell as a $20-30 add-on. I'd pony up at that level, just for the fun of it, even if my carts almost never leave storage anymore.

 

2. Games on SD/homebrew/etc. Full disclosure: I hack everything. I enjoy somewhat open hardware and I love being able to load/save ROMs in ways the manufacturer never intended. And I think it's entirely unneeded here. It's a very small group of people who care about this. The larger group that might care, only do it to avoid paying for games. If you open up virtually ANY ability to add games via physical media, or copy them off for "backups" - this WILL get compromised. Quickly. So long as there's no always-on Internet required (and that's been "confirmed"), I don't mind download-only for games. Not at these prices. AES256 encrypt the SD cards and allow for full-card backup, perhaps, if people are worried about the inevitable "company goes out of business" situation.

 

3. Cost: $150US sounds about right. This is more than an (S)NES Classic ($80). But it's not a brand new Playstation ($400 on release). It'll end up around $200 Canadian which is pretty much where I guessed it at.

 

4. E10+ rating max: Just be careful of being viewed as "kids only". Nintendo has suffered from this through several generations, even when they had some pretty 18+ content on their systems. And they're a big kahuna that suffered in the marketplace as a result. Otherwise I think it's a fantastic idea. If nothing else, it's a unique niche. And an easier way to create a sense of "killer apps". Not everyone wants to play Call of Duty on every device.

 

5. Don't think it's talked about, but I really hope a handheld is being talked about for the longer term. My eyes can't really do the small screens anymore but the handheld market is soon to be under-served. Not sure how it'd work with the controllers in mind, but...

[+nurmix]

So new (all?) games are tethered to the console only? They can’t be experienced through a multicart/SD type of device? Like a walled garden?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, the games (new and legacy) will be playable on the console only. The console will have the majority of the legacy games built-in, plus 7 new games. Others will be available from the online store at $3 - $7 for new games, and roughly $1 - $2 for legacy games (although homebrew developers who make new legacy games available in the store may charge more, depending on the title and publisher).

 

Some games will also be released in limited numbers, boxed on SD card, although obviously they will be more than $3 - $7 because of all the costs associated with physical media releases. We weren't planning to do this because we figured people would rather pay $5 for a game instead of $55, but lot's of folks have asked for it so we're planning it for some titles.

 

Digital / downloaded games will be encrypted and tied to the console used to purchase them, with some limited exceptions (ie. possibly usable on a few consoles that are under the same account - kind of like Apple does with iOS devices / Apple ID).

 

I'm not sure if you're clear on this, but the new games aren't just new games designed for the original Intellivision hardware, they are designed to run on the new custom hardware we're designing. And you can already play the original (legacy) games on SD/flash multi-carts on original hardware. This console existing doesn't change that.

 

That said, it's likely there will be a cartridge port adapter produced by a third party. In that case you'd be able to play original cartridges on the system, and depending on how it is designed, possibly use it with things like the Cuttle Cart 3 or LTO Flash too.

 

 

 

Sent from my Keyboard Component using Jack's Conversational Intelli-talk cassette

Edited July 10, 2018 by nurmix

[atari-dna]

Yes, the games (new and legacy) will be playable on the console only. The console will have the majority of the legacy games built-in, plus 7 new games. Others will be available from the online store at $3 - $7 for new games, and roughly $1 - $2 for legacy games (although homebrew developers who make new legacy games available in the store may charge more, depending on the title and publisher).

 

Some games will also be released in limited numbers, boxed on SD card, although obviously they will be more than $3 - $7 because of all the costs associated with physical media releases. We weren't planning to do this because we figured people would rather pay $5 for a game instead of $55, but lot's of folks have asked for it so we're planning it for some titles.

 

Digital / downloaded games will be encrypted and tied to the console used to purchase them, with some limited exceptions (ie. possibly usable on a few consoles that are under the same account - kind of like Apple does with iOS devices / Apple ID).

 

I'm not sure if you're clear on this, but the new games aren't just new games designed for the original Intellivision hardware, they are designed to run on the new custom hardware we're designing. And you can already play the original (legacy) games on SD/flash multi-carts on original hardware. This console existing doesn't change that.

 

 

 

Sent from my Keyboard Component using Jack's Conversational Intelli-talk cassette

Yes, I understand the console internals will have modern capabilities and a broad spectrum of games can be developed for it—not just a re-hash of legacy titles and home brews only. I just wanted to know if the software library was fixed to the device or not; thanks for providing clarification there.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[+nurmix]

 

What's the overall thinking on indie homebrews in the original store? I'm talking about us casual hobbyists (ie: me)? Specifically on the "old" side, the $1-2 games?

 

You could go the Apple Store route of "eh, anything's good enough so long as we get our 30%" and end up with 300 fart apps. Great for developers looking to make a quick buck. Less so for quality control.

 

Or the highly-controlled, approval-first method. With more than just a click-through licensing agreement. Possible fees required to get a title hosted. Keeps the quality up, but could shut out a lot of otherwise talented people.

 

INTV homebrew has such a miniscule market that even though people think that the $50-60 typically charged can be highway robbery... these are a labour of love. And ROM sales are a very, very tiny bit of gravy added on. No one's making more than a few dollars an hour working on these. But $1-2, to a market of tens or hundreds of thousands? With a low enough barrier to entry, it would give folks like me an excuse to really spend time on this.

 

 

Legacy games will still have to be approved, although there will be a different set of standards than those applied to the new releases. Obviously there can't be any sort of IP infringing games allowed in the store. We haven't figured out all the details yet, but the cost of entry will be low enough that it won't be a barrier to getting your games on the system. We want to get as many in the home-brew community on board as possible. Yes, it would open up a MUCH LARGER market to your games, to say the least.

 

 

To add my 2 cents on a few things, because I'm a bit in the middle ground on stuff:

 

1. Cart port: add-on only. We're talking a likely market of 4-500 people here. Low thousands at the absolute most optimistic estimate. It's extremely low value if the production numbers and market size are anywhere close to what's being hinted at. This could easily sell as a $20-30 add-on. I'd pony up at that level, just for the fun of it, even if my carts almost never leave storage anymore.

 

2. Games on SD/homebrew/etc. Full disclosure: I hack everything. I enjoy somewhat open hardware and I love being able to load/save ROMs in ways the manufacturer never intended. And I think it's entirely unneeded here. It's a very small group of people who care about this. The larger group that might care, only do it to avoid paying for games. If you open up virtually ANY ability to add games via physical media, or copy them off for "backups" - this WILL get compromised. Quickly. So long as there's no always-on Internet required (and that's been "confirmed"), I don't mind download-only for games. Not at these prices. AES256 encrypt the SD cards and allow for full-card backup, perhaps, if people are worried about the inevitable "company goes out of business" situation.

 

3. Cost: $150US sounds about right. This is more than an (S)NES Classic ($80). But it's not a brand new Playstation ($400 on release). It'll end up around $200 Canadian which is pretty much where I guessed it at.

 

4. E10+ rating max: Just be careful of being viewed as "kids only". Nintendo has suffered from this through several generations, even when they had some pretty 18+ content on their systems. And they're a big kahuna that suffered in the marketplace as a result. Otherwise I think it's a fantastic idea. If nothing else, it's a unique niche. And an easier way to create a sense of "killer apps". Not everyone wants to play Call of Duty on every device.

 

5. Don't think it's talked about, but I really hope a handheld is being talked about for the longer term. My eyes can't really do the small screens anymore but the handheld market is soon to be under-served. Not sure how it'd work with the controllers in mind, but...

 

1. Agreed. I want one too, you know!

 

2. I talked to Bill yesterday about this, he says he'd like to make that an option for Legacy games, as it will be for the New games. The games would still have be encrypted / protected, but that would be to your benefit as well.

 

3. :-)

 

4. The E/E10+ rating is one of the selling points of the system, and differentiates us from other consoles, as you noted. But it doesn't mean these will all be kiddie games by any means. You won't see blood and gore (and funnily enough, it may preclude games like Poker & Blackjack and Horse Racing, because... simulated gambling), but games can still be gritty and appeal to adults and kids.

 

5. Handheld? Not discussed, but depending on how this goes...

[+nurmix]

Yes, I understand the console internals will have modern capabilities and a broad spectrum of games can be developed for it—not just a re-hash of legacy titles and home brews only. I just wanted to know if the software library was fixed to the device or not; thanks for providing clarification there.

 

 

Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure, as there's a lot of misinformation / misunderstanding out there about what this will and won't be.

 

There will likely be some means to, for example... play a game on your friend's console to show it to him, but it would be a limited kind of thing (it disappears when you turn the console off, or something). That's not set in stone yet, just one of the things we're talking about. And just in case some reading this don't know, the console isn't "streaming" the games. Once you purchase and download a game, it's on your console to play - "always ON" Internet connectivity not required.

[+nurmix]

 

Can you make a new 'legacy' game, and put it on an SD card for use on the console?

 

Getting back to you on this, although I just answered it in my reply to Freewheel... I spoke to Bill Fisher about this yesterday, and he wants to make it an option for legacy games, as long as the game on SD card is approved by Intellivision Entertainment. And obviously you'd be doing all the physical media production yourself, which we all know you have no trouble with, Rev...

[+cmart604]

 

Getting back to you on this, although I just answered it in my reply to Freewheel... I spoke to Bill Fisher about this yesterday, and he wants to make it an option for legacy games, as long as the game on SD card is approved by Intellivision Entertainment. And obviously you'd be doing all the physical media production yourself, which we all know you have no trouble with, Rev...

And yet surprisingly he has trouble tying his shoes. (Look for him wearing Velcro sneakers at PRGE)

[blaidan]

Hi nurmix - I'm going to assume tha answer is "yes" but I'll ask anyway...

 

Suppose someone has purchased and downloaded games to their system. They now own the games and they are tied to that user's system. What happens in the unfortunate event of a console failure? Will that user/owner have a means to contact the company to re-download the games they've already purchased for use on their repaired or new/refurbished console? Thanks!

[+nurmix]

Hi nurmix - I'm going to assume tha answer is "yes" but I'll ask anyway...

 

Suppose someone has purchased and downloaded games to their system. They now own the games and they are tied to that user's system. What happens in the unfortunate event of a console failure? Will that user/owner have a means to contact the company to re-download the games they've already purchased for use on their repaired or new/refurbished console? Thanks!

 

Absolutely. Not a problem.

[Rev]

And yet surprisingly he has trouble tying his shoes. (Look for him wearing Velcro sneakers at PRGE)

I love my Dr Scholls shoes.

[+cmart604]

I love my Dr Scholls shoes.

Yes your white nurses shoes are quite a sensible choice

[+the1hatman]

Yes your white nurses shoes are quite a sensible choice

Can't fault a man for being practical.

[freewheel]

 

Getting back to you on this, although I just answered it in my reply to Freewheel... I spoke to Bill Fisher about this yesterday, and he wants to make it an option for legacy games, as long as the game on SD card is approved by Intellivision Entertainment. And obviously you'd be doing all the physical media production yourself, which we all know you have no trouble with, Rev...

 

Related. I know the intention is that everything is exclusive. So here's a rather niche curveball:

 

An original hardware game, that could only run on this - and an original Intellivision. Would releasing for both platforms be allowed? Or is exclusivity total?

 

It'd be hard to decide. Gouge cmart for a gold-plated CIB, or sell a few thousand download copies.

 

[+nurmix]

 

Related. I know the intention is that everything is exclusive. So here's a rather niche curveball:

 

An original hardware game, that could only run on this - and an original Intellivision. Would releasing for both platforms be allowed? Or is exclusivity total?

 

It'd be hard to decide. Gouge cmart for a gold-plated CIB, or sell a few thousand download copies.

 

Well you know anything that helps to empty Cmart's pockets is a good thing in my book.

 

Interesting question.. Not certain without speaking to the team, but I will say that since the primary focus of the console is the NEW [exclusive] games, and the built-in legacy games are clearly not exclusive, since they're playable on the original hardware, emulation, et al, that making a legacy game that can also be sold as a home-brew CIB release for the original console would be OK.

 

 

 

Sent from my Keyboard Component using Jack's Conversational Intelli-talk cassette

[freewheel]

Interesting question.. Not certain without speaking to the team, but I will say that since the primary focus of the console is the NEW [exclusive] games, and the built-in legacy games are clearly not exclusive, since they're playable on the original hardware, emulation, et al, that making a legacy game that can also be sold as a home-brew CIB release for the original console would be OK.

 

 

Nice. Obviously TBD, but it was just something that occurred to me.

 

8-bit stuff is all the rage right now and will be for the foreseeable future. I think we need a competition. To try to come up with the most addictive, must-have legacy side game. Something that actually drives console sales. Unlikely, but then again so was Flappy Bird. People are impossible to predict.

 

You should consider some kind of sales incentive program. Sell 10,000 (100,000?) copies of a legacy game, get a bonus - as that's obviously driving console sales with those kind of numbers. I bet nanochess could come up with some ideas here

[Jeffrey Bouchard]

If ECS games are included, how will the new console play them? I realize JZINTV with a keyboard can mimic the ECS keyboard but I was just curious how if at all the ECS games would work could we possibly plug in a USB keyboard to play these games on the console? Also, im not sure if much or any work was ever done on this but would it be possible to revive the majority of keyboard component software and have that be emulated as well? I cannot wait to try out the new games as well as the classics via HDMI.

Edited July 11, 2018 by JDog514