VladR Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Clint Thompson said: We must be talking about different things altogether then, like different people in a completely different reality. You were responding to Philip suggesting him to jump on the "RISC ASM" bandwagon to implement his theories as though it's a routine walk in the park yet remark how tedious and painful it is. So which is it, a 4-day stroll down rainbow road to 3D glory or a tortuous and difficult offset in life after a decade of experimenting and finally getting the grips of the hardware only to still not have actually released anything... So, according to you, 4 days of hardcore ASM Risc coding cannot be tedious and painful? Because it's "just" 4 days? Clearly you haven't tried it. That pain, when you change one instruction and it stops working, or worse, only occasionally does, is very real. Unlike 68000 (which you shouldn't even need to debug in the first place because it's so easy and stable) debugging RISC code is problematic. Which is exactly the reason why it's so rewarding when it finally does work. But, how would you know that, if you only have been "coding" in the super high-level Basic with a full backend with audio&gfx libraries, that can be picked up and used literally by any two-bit simpleton that managed to finish first 6 grades of elementary school? ( Or, if you are from Europe, 4 grades of math are enough.) Every single time I switch from RISC ASM to 68000 ASM, it feels like I switched to .NET/Java, that's how much more comfortable 68000 ASM is compared to RISC. And the reason why so many games were done in it as with couple smart macros you can almost have a C-style code. Once you discover and document all illegal RISC instruction combinations, the pain subsides, though the switch to RISC is a bi*ch after a long stay in 68000 land. But, it's both enjoyable and stressful at the same time. That's reality which you cannot see unless actually experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 9 hours ago, Greg2600 said: I never understood the fixation on graphics and/or sound alone, as if that makes a game successful or not. My favorite N64 racing game was Rush 2: Extreme Racing USA, and the graphics were terrible! Sega Europe were bang on when they talked of the Graphics Tarts turning their noses up at the depth many Saturn titles offered, instead opting for the shallower, eye candy based Playstation titles. Xcom/UFO Enemy Unknown was my favourite Playstation title and that was an Amiga/PC title that thankfully ran far faster than the Amiga version, had CD music and improved Smoke effects. But for a Playstation game, it looked awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Since this thread is in danger of turning into a p#sing and bickering fest, it's going to join the Doom mixing sound FX and Music thread as going on the ignore topic list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, VladR said: So, according to you, 4 days of hardcore ASM Risc coding cannot be tedious and painful? Because it's "just" 4 days? Clearly you haven't tried it. The exact opposite actually. Expecting someone (as a person who is more of an artist and not a programmer, like Philip or myself) with little to no prior programming experience in 3D to just put the "petal to the metal" of raw horse power known as assembly language and creating a wondrous base 3D engine on the Jaguar (out of all consoles mind you) in a matter of... days? That's completely unrealistic. It's easy for you to claim 4-days of instant 3D results of a basic tech demo when you've already been working in a programming environment on the Jaguar for 10+ years now and obviously have both 3D and assembly language knowledge/experience under your belt. How could that be interpreted any other way than you clearly implied? 4 hours ago, VladR said: But, how would you know that, if you only have been "coding" in the super high-level Basic with a full backend with audio&gfx libraries, that can be picked up and used literally by any two-bit simpleton that managed to finish first 6 grades of elementary school? ( Or, if you are from Europe, 4 grades of math are enough.) There's a lot of people using those tools. Rb+ is completely underrated yet very effective and helpful at creating some really cool stuff in a fraction of the time it would take you to do in assembly. Undermining the capabilities of said "super ultra mega high-level Basic" or the abilities and outcome as a result of those using these tools, that can apparently be picked up and programmed by any 4th grader or two-bit simpleton like myself (although I suppose that is the point and prefer to be called a 64-bit simpleton -- thank you), seems a bit crass. Rb+ is allowing me to do things I would have never been able to do before and for that, I'm super appreciative for all the contributions from those who have made such a piece of kit possible over the years. So while I may not be creating endless 3D tunnels (oh wait, I did that with my Fear No Escape demo actually ), I can create interactive games that simply work and doesn't require a decade of learning/experimenting while trying to figure out the inner complexities of the Jaguar hardware and faults that cause so many problems during hardcore assembly coding to achieve similarly great results. Did I mention in a fraction of the time? 64-BIT SIMPLETONS UNITE! Edited September 2, 2019 by Clint Thompson 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 The only way the discussion will ever truly be settled in favor of the people who claim the Jaguar can do x, y, or z is with an actual fully playable game release, which, by most accounts, seems incredibly unlikely. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinkoVitch Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I am sure plenty of people know this already, but just to say it again: It doesn't matter HOW you make your game, what tools you use, what language you use etc, as long as the game is fun and people enjoy it, THAT is all that matters. As for assembly, it's not the ultimate in programming languages or mad skills, it's just another language. Anyone claiming to write something new from scratch that has any complexity in 4 days of a new language I'd suggest is talking through their hats, quite probably it's more likely they are transcoding by hand previous work already written. Of course anyone blowing smoke up their own arse constantly, trying to gatekeep something like coding whilst producing pretty much bugger all ever only compounds this. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapd0 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 It was capable to ruin a company. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinkoVitch Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, swapd0 said: It was capable to ruin a company. Only Atari makes it possible! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 33 minutes ago, swapd0 said: It was capable to ruin a company. you could put a PS4 into a time warp and Atari would have ruined it lol. Falcon, Lynx, Jaguar - it was written on the wall sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 4 hours ago, Clint Thompson said: The exact opposite actually. Expecting someone (as a person who is more of an artist and not a programmer, like Philip or myself) with little to no prior programming experience in 3D to just put the "petal to the metal" of raw horse power known as assembly language and creating a wondrous base 3D engine on the Jaguar (out of all consoles mind you) in a matter of... days? That's completely unrealistic. It's easy for you to claim 4-days of instant 3D results of a basic tech demo when you've already been working in a programming environment on the Jaguar for 10+ years now and obviously have both 3D and assembly language knowledge/experience under your belt. How could that be interpreted any other way than you clearly implied? There's a lot of people using those tools. Rb+ is completely underrated yet very effective and helpful at creating some really cool stuff in a fraction of the time it would take you to do in assembly. Undermining the capabilities of said "super ultra mega high-level Basic" or the abilities and outcome as a result of those using these tools, that can apparently be picked up and programmed by any 4th grader or two-bit simpleton like myself (although I suppose that is the point and prefer to be called a 64-bit simpleton -- thank you), seems a bit crass. Rb+ is allowing me to do things I would have never been able to do before and for that, I'm super appreciative for all the contributions from those who have made such a piece of kit possible over the years. So while I may not be creating endless 3D tunnels (oh wait, I did that with my Fear No Escape demo actually ), I can create interactive games that simply work and doesn't require a decade of learning/experimenting while trying to figure out the inner complexities of the Jaguar hardware and faults that cause so many problems during hardcore assembly coding to achieve similarly great results. Did I mention in a fraction of the time? 64-BIT SIMPLETONS UNITE! Vlad is blowing smoke for a decade while "simpletons" deliver. Fact. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 hour ago, agradeneu said: Vlad is blowing smoke for a decade while "simpletons" deliver. Fact. Ahhhh, yes :). The "release" argument again. My standards -as to what I am willing to officially release under my name - are what they are. They are non-negotiable. I want to be proud of the first game& tools & engine combo on this platform. My long-term goal is to have a framework of tools that will allow me to release new Jaguar 3D game every 3 months- should I desire to do so. There's two remaining big high-risk items reusable for all future games: - PAL support - audio First one will be handled prior to the pre-order campaign. Second one during the 60-day campaign. After that, it shouldn't take more than 75-90 days to write different physics, create new 3D assets, levels and sounds for a completely new game. If I want to do that. 64-bit Simpleton. Damn, that's a good one Wish I thought of that yesterday 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 19 hours ago, VladR said: I want to be proud of the first game& tools & engine combo on this platform. Pretty sure that ship sailed many moons ago.... *cough* The Removers *cough* oh and this thing called * Raptor * but hey, don't let inconvenient facts get in the way of your smoke up ass blowing machine 2 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 4 hours ago, CyranoJ said: Pretty sure that ship sailed many moons ago.... *cough* The Removers *cough* oh and this thing called * Raptor * but hey, don't let inconvenient facts get in the way of your smoke up ass blowing machine I'm pretty sure it was blatantly obvious to everyone that I was talking about *MY* toolchain given that Jaguar has been around for a quarter century, hence that ship sailed long ago. Hence only very first person who created the same ~25 years ago could actually claim what you just absurdly have. But hey, don't let such an unimportant detail get in the way of self-promoting your *cough* library *cough* in every unimaginable post one could attempt to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 So, now again and veeery slowly this time: I. Want. To. Be. Proud. Of. The. First. Engine. And. Toolchain. That. I. Create. For. Myself. On. Jaguar. Hopefully, that was simple enough for the 64-bit Simpletons that had comprehension issues, as evidenced by one of them in the post above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Oh, damn! I didn't Know! I just got this notification on my cell phone. Today is a National Acceptance Day for the Mentally Challenged. Please accept my sincere apologies for the sarcastic response above. How about, for a day, we all sing Kumbaya and hold our hands in the Jaguar forum? Of course, Tomorrow, is a Brand New Day.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 39 minutes ago, VladR said: I'm pretty sure it was blatantly obvious to everyone that I was talking about *MY* toolchain given that Jaguar has been around for a quarter century, hence that ship sailed long ago. No, it was NOT blatantly obvious based on what you wrote above. 21 minutes ago, VladR said: Oh, damn! I didn't Know! I just got this notification on my cell phone. Today is a National Acceptance Day for the Mentally Challenged. Please accept my sincere apologies for the sarcastic response above. How about, for a day, we all sing Kumbaya and hold our hands in the Jaguar forum? Of course, Tomorrow, is a Brand New Day.... Stop being a trolling asshole or you are going to get booted from this thread, and if you continue, from the Jaguar forum. ..Al 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Albert said: No, it was NOT blatantly obvious based on what you wrote above. Stop being a trolling asshole or you are going to get booted from this thread, and if you continue, from the Jaguar forum. ..Al Oh, so please, be so kind and share with me: how come everyone else can be sarcastic about my work on Jaguar but I am not allowed the same ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, VladR said: Oh, so please, be so kind and share with me: how come everyone else can be sarcastic about my work on Jaguar but I am not allowed the same ? Stop trying to defend your insults and attacks as "sarcasm", you've gone well beyond that with your last three posts. If you feel there are posts that go beyond the line of what's acceptable, please report them instead of responding with your over-the-top snark and name calling. ..Al 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, Albert said: Stop trying to defend your insults and attacks as "sarcasm", you've gone well beyond that with your last three posts. If you feel there are posts that go beyond the line of what's acceptable, please report them instead of responding with your over-the-top snark and name calling. ..Al Point taken - I grew up in a communist country - so please trust me when I say that I am deeply familiar with the concept of power and its demonstration. No need to demonstrate that. PRGE is in few weeks. If you could please be so kind so as not to accidentally wander into my vendor stand, I would be indeed very grateful to you. Thank you so much for your understanding and cooperation in this matter. Have a great day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just now, VladR said: Point taken - I grew up in a communist country - so please trust me when I say that I am deeply familiar with the concept of power and its demonstration. No need to demonstrate that. PRGE is in few weeks. If you could please be so kind so as not to accidentally wander into my vendor stand, I would be indeed very grateful to you. Thank you so much for your understanding and cooperation in this matter. Have a great day. I'll visit your booth if I want to, you can't decide to selectively restrict other vendors and attendees from "wandering into" your vendor stand. Are you really that petty? If you feel you are being treated so unfairly here, why do you continue to visit and post? I have been fairly lenient with you considering how you cannot resist flaming and attacking those who criticize your work. So don't give me this communism and "power and its demonstration" crap. ..Al 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, Albert said: I'll visit your booth if I want to, you can't decide to selectively restrict other vendors and attendees from "wandering into" your vendor stand. Are you really that petty? If you feel you are being treated so unfairly here, why do you continue to visit and post? I have been fairly lenient with you considering how you cannot resist flaming and attacking those who criticize your work. So don't give me this communism and "power and its demonstration" crap. ..Al I was merely trying to save you from embarrassment as I was under erroneous assumption that you would experience it. Now that you confirmed that I misjudged your temperament (finally, few other things clicked), feel free to ignore my humble request to not visit my PRGE vendor stand. Wait, did you actually live some part of your life behind iron curtain? Since you are an American, I assume your experience with communism comes only from Hollywood. I apologise if I was wrong about that assumption. So, for how long and which communist country did you live in? You got me really curious here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 I think it's time for Vlad to take a break from this thread. There's been entirely too much talking back to the moderators recently, and our patience is wearing thin. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshworrier Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) Boomshanka Edited September 3, 2019 by Welshworrier So as to pour water not fuel on the flames 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linndrum Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 You guys attack him, then get mad when he retaliates. Wtf? I read through this whole thread at one point and never at any point did Vlad cast the first stone. You guys are like the 80's school bully that makes you hit yourself with your own fist. "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!" He's a programmer, doing cool projects, and writing a thread about it describing what he's doing. Somehow some of you decided that was worth attacking him for, wtf? I enjoy reading his posts and watching his engine progress so please stop trying to poke him with a stick and get him banned. I'd like to keep watching his projects grow. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr SQL Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 (edited) On 9/2/2019 at 12:43 PM, VladR said: Ahhhh, yes :). The "release" argument again. My standards -as to what I am willing to officially release under my name - are what they are. They are non-negotiable. I want to be proud of the first game& tools & engine combo on this platform. My long-term goal is to have a framework of tools that will allow me to release new Jaguar 3D game every 3 months- should I desire to do so. There's two remaining big high-risk items reusable for all future games: - PAL support - audio Awesome goals and double awesome research on your projects! I have very similar plans when for when I get to the Jag, and have built a similar framework for the 2600 to utilize another chip for more powerful graphics; in this case a soft blitter chip with a Tiny BASIC for rapid game development. These kind of projects are tremendous fun and can really snowball once they get going! I may be able to help you with some ideas for the audio I used in the tracker/sequencer design - checkout the soundtrack in BREAKOUT 2002, inspired by the Jag BREAKOUT 2000 to put the game on a larger playing field with some different physics: The thread is here with the game on the 2600 forum, hope all Jag fans enjoy! EDIT: Al would you please give me rights to edit the first post on that thread? Edited September 15, 2019 by Mr SQL forum software bug closed page when changing a link to an embedded iframe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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