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NeoGeo64

What was the Jaguar truly capable of?

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Opinions are fine for subjective things, like saying "game X is more fun to play than game Y".

For objective things, opinions are pretty much worthless, actual evidence is where it's at.

There are already hundred of pages of uninformed opinions in this forum, we don't need more.

 

What? I don't know what you're reading, but you're reading it wrong.

Reality check: if the DSP was the ideal processor to run everything on, and if that was obvious from the docs, do you really think nobody would have noticed in 25 years?

 

My opinions aren't that uninformed, I give enough information to relay a reasonable idea that's generally feasible in theory not to take away or question any of the programmers here... When I see a good thing I run with it.

 

 

The 68000 is:

 

a 32-bit processor

has full access to main ram unhinged without a workaround at full speed

is on a 16bit bus

can control all the IO ports on the system

 

Just sayin'

 

No argument there man... Well one... It slower and tends to slow the other the processors down when it hits the bus, but has its advantages like taking some work load from the other processors. I'm probably not saying anything you don't already know, but for the sake of clarity and repetitive memory, I bring it up anyway.

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I give enough information to relay a reasonable idea that's generally feasible in theory

There's little point in arguing theory with people who know what can and can't be achieved in practice.

It's like going to an aviation forum, and telling pilots "I've never flown a plane, but I've read the manual and here are some stunts that should be totally doable".

The first time, it's cute. But after ten years of seeing it again and again, it gets really tiring.

 

My opinions aren't that uninformed

Sorry, but yes, they are. It's been pointed out to you several times already, and CJ just pointed out your error about the DSP being the only processor having specific characteristics.

If you can't get basic stuff right, don't expect others to take you seriously. There is enough misinformation about the Jaguar already.

Edited by Zerosquare
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It slower and tends to slow the other the processors down when it hits the bus

 

Sadly all processor on the jaguar slow down the other ones because it's on a shared bus without cache :(

 

The 68000 has the lower priority this means that some times the other processor slow down the 68000 not the other way.

 

I'm coding a game and before some optimisations the OP was hitting the bus so hard that has almost no cycles left for the 68000 to execute the code.

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There's little point in arguing theory with people who know what can and can't be achieved in practice.

It's like going to an aviation forum, and telling pilots "I've never flown a plane, but I've read the manual and here are some stunts that should be totally doable".

The first time, it's cute. But after ten years of seeing it again and again, it gets really tiring.

 

Sorry, but yes, they are. It's been pointed out to you several times already, and CJ just pointed out your error about the DSP being the only processor having specific characteristics.

If you can't get basic stuff right, don't expect others to take you seriously. There is enough misinformation about the Jaguar already.

 

I never said the DSP was the only processor to have "specific characteristics" as you put it, I pointed out that it's the best processor to work with on the Jaguar because of those characteristics and even pointed the fact that Atari themselves makes that a highlight of the system. CJ didn't say anything that I didn't already know about; I've talked about in past discussion the issues I had with the 68K being the slowest cpu of them all and not really wanting to use it so naturally the DSP is the best processor, but not the only processor. Dude I'm sorry I make you feel some kind of way due to misconception you have about me; I left the Jag scene at a time when I was getting a better understanding of the system. I admit that back in the day my understanding was lax to say the least, but that's not quite the case today, at least not in the way it was back then... But you're right, I need a proof of concept in code on the stuff I post, but that doesn't mean that my ideas aren't solid... If you got the experience, well then good for you, but don't try and throw my stuff under the bus just because you disagree with me or whatever my concepts represent; One can't fly a plane without reading the manual first.

 

Am I the first in with a "GPU in Mane" theory?

 

attachicon.gifmaxresdefault.jpg

 

??? :?

 

There moments I do wonder about the Jag forum here at AA... Sometimes it's a great place to be and other times it turns into a rabbit hole. SMH

 

 

Edited by philipj

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I never said the DSP was the only processor to have "specific characteristics" as you put it, I pointed out that it's the best processor to work with on the Jaguar because of those characteristics and even pointed the fact that Atari themselves makes that a highlight of the system. CJ didn't say anything that I didn't already know about; I've talked about in past discussion the issues I had with the 68K being the slowest cpu of them all and not really wanting to use it so naturally the DSP is the best processor, but not the only processor. Dude I'm sorry I make you feel some kind of way due to misconception you have about me; I left the Jag scene at a time when I was getting a better understanding of the system. I admit that back in the day my understanding was lax to say the least, but that's not quite the case today, at least not in the way it was back then... But you're right, I need a proof of concept in code on the stuff I post, but that doesn't mean that my ideas aren't solid... If you got the experience, well then good for you, but don't try and throw my stuff under the bus just because you disagree with me or whatever my concepts represent; One can't fly a plane without reading the manual first.

 

 

??? :?

 

There are moments I do wonder about the Jag forum here at AA... Sometimes it's a great place to be and other times it turns into a rabbit hole. SMH

 

 

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One can't fly a plane without reading the manual first.

 

...actually, that's the only way I fly. ;-) Really helps create an edge-of-your-seat experience and then the sudden realization of "oh, I can't do that... shit." hits --then back to digging through what I need to learn, looking at examples, again. over and over... but I make sure I do it the most difficult way possible for added bonus points.

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I never said the DSP was the only processor to have "specific characteristics" as you put it

Do you even read your own posts?

The DSP really is the best processor considering that it's the only chip that has full access to main memory

don't try and throw my stuff under the bus just because you disagree with me or whatever my concepts represent

I don't disagree with you.

I don't disagree with your "concepts".

I'm just tired of reading posts that assert things that are either unsupported by evidence or factually wrong, and of people who keep doing this and backpedaling once this is revealed.

 

One can't fly a plane without reading the manual first.

Sure. Read it. But more importantly, understand it, and use it to actually make something.

Just reading the manual won't get you anywhere.

Edited by Zerosquare
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The 68000 is:

 

a 32-bit processor

has full access to main ram unhinged without a workaround at full speed

is on a 16bit bus

can control all the IO ports on the system

 

Just sayin'

 

In fact the 68000 is essentially a 16 bit microprocessor because its ALU is 16bits. The size of the ALU is what defines the generation of a microprocessor in terms of bit. In second, the size of the registers.

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My opinions aren't that uninformed, I give enough information to relay a reasonable idea that's generally feasible in theory not to take away or question any of the programmers here... When I see a good thing I run with it.

 

 

No argument there man... Well one... It slower and tends to slow the other the processors down when it hits the bus, but has its advantages like taking some work load from the other processors. I'm probably not saying anything you don't already know, but for the sake of clarity and repetitive memory, I bring it up anyway.

 

are you aware that the DSP is full of bug especially on external access?

 

I invite you to take a look at the DSP source code of DOOM to have a little idea.

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If a highly talented and skilled team of programmers (such as the top coders at SEGA back in the mid 90s) who were intimately familiar with the Jaguar's hardware did some hardcore assembly programming with great resource utilization developed a game on the Jaguar using Tom and Jerry, instead of the M68K, what kind of 3D graphics would have been seen?

 

Where did you learn to post?

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post-62192-0-93133000-1534453347.png

:-o :lolblue:

 

Sorry, seeing that user name under the topic title seemed a bit ironic...

 

I suppose the Jaguar was capable of dying.

Edited by pacman000
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Personally I find this kind of thread quite interesting, so here's my bump.



Back in the day, I was a stupid kid (not that I'm much better as an adult...), but I remember thinking "64 bits my @ss, these are 16 bit graphics at best".



I'm quite sure that ignorant thought was in just about everyone's heads, reason why the Jag failed.



Now as an adult, I understand the situation far better than I did in 1993.



The Jag was hard to program for, and had tons of developers with little time, money or understanding of the hardware developing for it, just battling some crazy deadline and having families to feed.



Wanna see what good programming does on a given platform?



Rare vs everybody else on the N64's library.



Rare's awesome programming is the difference between Perfect Dark (almost Dreamcast like graphics) vs 90% of the N64s games (blurry messes which resemble 32 bit graphics).



Same with the Jag:



Good programming bring us AVP and Skyhammer vs Cybermorph.



Speaking of Cybermorph, the jump from Cybermorph vs Battlemorph is just a small proof of how much optimization brings to the table.



Here's a thought:



What do you think the Jag could have achieved if AAA+ developers like Rare, Capcom, Konami, Sega (I know, just an example) had programmed for the Jag?



My answer (YMMV):


It would have achieved near Saturn levels of 3d graphics, but 2 to 3 years before the Saturn and PS1 came to the market, thus shaping the gaming industry as the dominant force.


We could have seen awesome 2d arcade ports as well.



A perfect port of Final Fight or TMNT could have been enough to massively bump Jag's sales.



As much as I respect the developers back in the day, the Jag never had a Rare, Capcom or Sega programming for it.



Imagine what the N64 would have been without Rare?

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As much as I respect the developers back in the day, the Jag never had a Rare, Capcom or Sega programming for it.
Imagine what the N64 would have been without Rare?

 

 

It would've been cool to see something like that happen just to know what resources they would use to pull off some neat graphical tricks and gameplay... I'm more interested in what can be done on the system now, more than what could've been. That's always been the case when I first got into the scene. "Fight For Life" has a pretty decent animation system; would've been nice to see a "Mario 64" style game or some sorts come to fruition back in the day, but it's never too late to see one now. Perhaps "Crystal Castle 64" in 2018 or some other kind of good 3D platformer...? It's possible to work around the control factor especially with the newly released reproduction 6 button controller that has the left and right flip buttons on them for the Atari Jaguar. Back in the 90s, the N64 controller really bought something new to the table with the 360 control stick that Sony later follow-up with 2 of them on one controller they released and it became an industry standard. But if you look back before those then, you had the SNES controllers and the 3DO controllers with the "left and right flip buttons" on top of. Well the 3DO made good use of those buttons in navigating in 3D environments using the analog controllers; the N64 digital 360 controller stick simply added a broader range to that affect making the gaming experience much more interactive then anyone could've expected back then, but the basic blue print with using analog controllers for 3D control is there and can be used again and refined. Games like "Starfighter, Battlesports, the list goes on with the 3DO system and even some SNES pseudo 3D games that used the mode 7 feature in a fake 3D environment where you use the controller and the flip buttons to navigate within those environment; it's all there and can be used again.

 

Once again I turned a simple reply into a full on paragraph, but I'm highly enthused about what the Jaguar has to offer today more than what it offered in the past. Definitely something I've been down the road more times than I can remember and I just like to see some new stuff.

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It would have achieved near Saturn levels of 3d graphics, but 2 to 3 years before the Saturn and PS1 came to the market, thus shaping the gaming industry as the dominant force.

The Jaguar has no video ram for textures like the Saturn does. It also does not have Hardware 3D acceleration support like the Saturn does. It's 3D hardware support is only rudimentary compared to Saturn or PSX. The Saturn and PSX are nearly 3-4 years newer hardware.

 

It would never be able to match them in speed or number of polygons on the scene at once.

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The vram is the least reason why Saturn is so much better.

 

I have been looking into Saturn 's dev docs for quite some time now and we could write five pages about why is Saturn superior to jag, but on a jag forum i doubt a single other person would care for Saturn.

 

But the single most standout feature is Sega's dev library, that right out of the box handles clipped textured polygons.

 

And as if that wasn't enough of a killer difference to jag, it uses both SH-2s by default(as if you wrote engine that splits rendering between gpu and dsp on jag)

 

And fully working C compiler.

 

 

What takes 3-6 months of hardcore assembly coding on jag, takes 3-6 days on Saturn.

 

 

How on earth couldn't Saturn compete with PS1 is way way more absurd than jag not being able to, as jag offered nothing to developers.

But Saturn did, yet stood no chance.

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I think the fact that people want to make or want to port games for the Jag is far more impressive than what the machine can do. I look forward to what people will port or produce for the Jag!

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I think the fact that people want to make or want to port games for the Jag is far more impressive than what the machine can do. I look forward to what people will port or produce for the Jag!

Here is wisdom.

 

There's so much good stuff coming out on Jaguar at the moment and people experimenting with concepts of their own, the issue of what might of been possible had developer A been developing on the Jaguar and if they'd been aware of work around B discovered years later...is becoming mute.

 

 

It's what's being done by people today that makes for far more interesting viewing as it's stuff people get to see and play.

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The more I try the jag, the more I think that what was missing was C++. The whole atchitecture lends itself to oop more than anything.

Other than that, documentation and libraries are everything.

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What takes 3-6 months of hardcore assembly coding on jag, takes 3-6 days on Saturn.

So you've ported your HERO engine to the Saturn? What kind of Saturn releases are you working on?

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The more I try the jag, the more I think that what was missing was C++. The whole atchitecture lends itself to oop more than anything.

Other than that, documentation and libraries are everything.

Isn't oop a little memory intensive for such a small memory footprint?

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Isn't oop a little memory intensive for such a small memory footprint?

 

Given OOP is used on embedded systems with far less ROM/RAM than the jag, nope. (and by far less I am talking 4KB of RAM and 64KB of ROM type sizes)

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I think the fact that people want to make or want to port games for the Jag is far more impressive than what the machine can do. I look forward to what people will port or produce for the Jag!

 

I'd like to see Neo Geo games emulated on the Jaguar.

 

Here is wisdom.

 

There's so much good stuff coming out on Jaguar at the moment and people experimenting with concepts of their own, the issue of what might of been possible had developer A been developing on the Jaguar and if they'd been aware of work around B discovered years later...is becoming mute.

 

 

It's what's being done by people today that makes for far more interesting viewing as it's stuff people get to see and play.

 

Agreed... At this point any game for the Jaguar is a good game just to get some more good stuff going. All bets are off.

 

 

Given OOP is used on embedded systems with far less ROM/RAM than the jag, nope. (and by far less I am talking 4KB of RAM and 64KB of ROM type sizes)

 

I think there's a C compiler being made for the Texas Instrument TI-99/4A... If it can be made for that, it can be made for anything.

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