1088XLD - Custom A8 Computer in 1050 Drive Case

[bfollowell]

2 hours ago, orpheuswaking said:

It's not a matter of a google rabbit hole, you can search this very thread directly from within the forum. Being that the MIDI functionality and the S2 synth is a fundamental part of the design it would make sense to know at least the basics before attempting to build (or even buy). 

I agree. I don't know much about the XLD design, but I made certain I was fully familiar with the XEL before deciding if I thought I could, and would want to, undertake such a project. Asking about the S2 synth the way he did would've been almost like me getting my XEL almost completely built, then asking, "Hey! What's this U1M thing and where can I get it?"

 

It sort of boggles the mind. Mine at least.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by bfollowell

[+DrVenkman]

I didn't make a big deal about it myself but yeah, basically. I mean, it's always awesome to see new A8 motherboards. I built my XEL and love it! But when Michael invited me to build the beta version of the XLD, THIS is exactly why I leapt at the opportunity. This MIDI file is being played by the S2 inside my 1088XLD:

 

 

[Bee]

@DrVenkman How about the peter gun theme?

[+DrVenkman]

3 minutes ago, Bee said:

@DrVenkman How about the peter gun theme?

I don’t recall if I have that one loaded up on my CF card but if I can track it down, sure. I’ll post it in a few days.  

[Bee]

13 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I don’t recall if I have that one loaded up on my CF card but if I can track it down, sure. I’ll post it in a few days.  

let's see how that A8 stacks up -

 

?

[rockdoc2010]

@Drvenkman

 

Get a hold of Han Zimmers's Mission Impossible 2 soundtrack  Totally worth it!

 

@Bee

 

Check out Tal Wilkenfeld! She was on tour with Jeff Beck when she was 16 years old.

 

Peace

[+DrVenkman]

I have plenty of MIID files. I was just showing folks what the S2 is capable of and why you should want one in your XLD.  

[800xl_1984]

19 hours ago, towmater said:

People act as though the internet is some sort of Rosetta Stone of knowledge and that someone should read 35 pages of documents before daring to ask a simple question. Like, now I'm afraid to ask if there's a PS2 converter for the original keyboard so I can adapt a newly designed housing for an old keyboard? I could Google it and spend an hour going down rabbit holes, or I could just ask here if anyone knows an offhand and immediate answer.

The entire point of user groups and forums like these are to ask questions and receive immediate answers. Ask away and ignore the "RTFM" people.

[+DrVenkman]

3 minutes ago, 800xl_1984 said:

Ask away and ignore the "RTFM" people.

Especially those who suggest you might start with the 37 page thread you’re already posting in, and those who have already successfully built these machines, or hell, the guy who designed it.  

[+Firedawg]

1 hour ago, 800xl_1984 said:

"immediate answers"

Now that maybe setting expectations a bit high for a hobby forum.  Over these many years I have seen, especially on this forum, folks bending over backwards to help others achieve success in addressing issues no matter the complication.  My thanks goes out to you all for the help in the past and any help I may need in the future. 

[+mytek]

7 hours ago, 800xl_1984 said:

The entire point of user groups and forums like these are to ask questions and receive immediate answers. Ask away and ignore the "RTFM" people.

So I guess that would preclude referencing either the BOM or schematic that people such as myself and Dropcheck put hours into creating and fine tuning. Instead I should just answer any question immediately because that's what I'm suppose to do on a forum.

 

You know as the person who put in thousands of $$$ creating and developing both the 1088XEL and 1088XLD, as well as a good portion of my life doing so for two years, I don't think it's asking too much to have someone read before posting questions that have either already been posted about previously or are covered in readily provided documentation. However with that said, I think I have always gone above and beyond to answer questions efficiently and quickly about the products I developed. Now mind you I am under no obligation what so ever to do so, since I do not sell or profit from any of this.

 

BTW, the entire point of forums is for the free exchange of ideas, without any expectations.

 

Best regards,

An RTFM affiliate  

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

It's unbelievable: during these past years, I have seen people complaining endlessly about the lack of copious user documentation for hard disk adapters, memory upgrades, cartridges, etc, disregarding the fact developers were generally too preoccupied with the hardware itself to focus on writing detailed manuals. Time passed, however, and now we have copious amounts of user documentation (and videos, and sticky threads, and a better forum search facility) for the most popular and prolific upgrades, created at considerable expense in terms of time and effort by those who wrote them, and now the complaint is that the manual is too long to read. I know I should not find this surprising, nor dwell on the irony.

 

 

[bfollowell]

I agree with you guys. You’ve done a great job of documenting these projects and the hardware and processes involved.

 

While I agree with some, that it isn’t reasonable to expect someone to read through a complete 54 page thread to glean every single bit of information possible, especially from some obscure post somewhere in the middle, it certainly isn’t unreasonable to expect people to do their homework and have at least a passable knowledge of the projects they’re undertaking. That especially goes for questions that are easily answered in the BOM and other basic documents. I mean, those are a must.

 

That being said, I’ve never known any of you guys to not go over and above the call of duty to help the rest of us when you can. If you guys throw out the occasional RTFW manual for those basic, no brainer type questions, I don’t think anyone can blame you. I know I certainly don’t, and I for one really appreciate all that you do to help the rest of us.

Edited April 29, 2020 by bfollowell

[flashjazzcat]

Tables of contents exist too; some which take you directly to the subject of interest with a single click of the mouse.

 

[Bee]

OK I make a joke, look away, come back to a @hit storm?  To point out I was trying to be playful and pull some music people in, Peter Gun and Mission Impossible both by Mancini, loosely modeled on the Man from Uncle theme.  I was aiming at @DrVenkman & @flashjazzcat you see I haven't seen a recent video from Jon with a musical instrument, I hoped my quip would maybe nuge a few cords out. 

 

Switching Gears - ( the body of christ compels me )  Apparently Someone took it on to say "The entire point of user groups and forums like these are to ask questions and receive immediate answers. Ask away and ignore the "RTFM" people." 

 

If it's a joke I missed the humor.

 

I quote Miracle Max from The Princess Bride " You rush a miracle, you get a rotten miracle "

 

It is disingenuous to ask for help if you are not willing to make an effort to educate yourself first, if you are unwilling to help yourself, why should anyone here?

 

This is a forum, it's just that, a place of free exchange and honestly, free advice.  My experience is the people here are willing to help you if you are genuine in your own pursuits.

 

This is not a Bank, we don't owe you answers if you are unwill to make an effort on your own behalf.  

 

The visual I perceive of it is as follows.  You have fallen off the back of a cruise ship, I'm offering to toss the lifesaver to you, your reaction is to flip me the bird.

 

I appreciate the efforts and labor of everyone here. 

 

Be kind

 

or find a forum where they embrace unkind behavior.

 

These folks have years of work and untold amounts of money invested for the love of the community and the camaraderie, a grip of effort and cash, show a little respect.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Bee

[+mytek]

5 hours ago, Bee said:

...come back to a @hit storm?

It doesn't have to be that way, and it would probably be best if someone with only 58 posts to their name, and who jumped into this topic for the first time I'm aware of, to not be dictating how things should be.

 

5 hours ago, Bee said:

To point out I was trying to be playful and pull some music people in, Peter Gun and Mission Impossible both by Mancini, loosely modeled on the Man from Uncle theme.

I don't think anyone had a problem with what you were posting (I certainly didn't). And I also find myself in full agreement with what you just stated in your last post. Thank You.

 

------------

So now let's get back to the regular Q&A and shared experiences with building and/or using a 1088XLD .

 

[towmater]

On 4/29/2020 at 4:12 PM, Bee said:

This is not a Bank, we don't owe you answers if you are unwill to make an effort on your own behalf.  

I'd love for this to be back on topic, though again, I am "will" to look for quality answers from the royal "we" but am unable. Not everyone can take the stairs like you. The fact that a new product apparently evolved from the "lazy" question escapes you? Someday you hope we can all be like you.

[+mytek]

I will take this back to the topic, or at least a semblance of such  .

 

towmater I wanted to thank you very much for asking the question...

Quote

...if there's a PS2 converter for the original keyboard so I can adapt a newly designed housing for an old keyboard?

Which as you and others probably know, got me thinking about how to create such a thing, and then that led to the idea of creating a new PCB to go inside an XEGS keyboard. Anyway for those that didn't catch it, I continued playing with the idea, but accidentally posted the continuation over in the XEL topic instead of this one.

This will take some time to actually make it into reality, so no one should hold their breath waiting. But since the idea does have merit, it will likely happen.

 

The hardware side of things is going to be fairly simple, but the firmware that it needs is way more complex, and considerably different than the TK-II, so that's where the time will get invested.

 

When it starts getting to a working or even semi-working prototype, I'll create a new topic all about it.

 

[Bee]

Moving back to the console keys on another project with the XEGS, I'm running capacitive touch in subsurface for hidden console buttons.

 

https://www.adafruit.com/product/1374

 

It looks like there would be room to use them without a need to cut the case.

 

Thank you

[+mytek]

11 hours ago, Bee said:

Moving back to the console keys on another project with the XEGS, I'm running capacitive touch in subsurface for hidden console buttons.

 

https://www.adafruit.com/product/1374

 

It looks like there would be room to use them without a need to cut the case.

 

Thank you

Not a bad idea, but it would not be anywhere as nice as using the keys that are already there. Of course you would need to fabricate the button tops, but based on what I am seeing ivop doing on creating new buttons for cherry key switches, this would be even simpler than that. Because even if you did go the capacitive switch route, you'd still have to figure out a way to nicely label where they were located (unless you're going stealth, and then the capacitive switches make sense). 3D printed buttons could be done with the labels already embedded, and with careful center punching and a step drill, the 4 extra holes wouldn't be too difficult to make. Plus there would be no wiring or soldering required.

 

I was just looking at the video of the capacitance switch in use, and it doesn't look like it would work through the thickness of the XEGS keyboard's plastic case, which would kinda defeat the whole purpose.

 

 

[Bee]

2 hours ago, mytek said:

Not a bad idea, but it would not be anywhere as nice as using the keys that are already there. Of course you would need to fabricate the button tops, but based on what I am seeing ivop doing on creating new buttons for cherry key switches, this would be even simpler than that. Because even if you did go the capacitive switch route, you'd still have to figure out a way to nicely label where they were located (unless you're going stealth, and then the capacitive switches make sense). 3D printed buttons could be done with the labels already embedded, and with careful center punching and a step drill, the 4 extra holes wouldn't be too difficult to make. Plus there would be no wiring or soldering required.

 

I have milled PVC and used through similar thickness.  If I get time I'll open a Keyboard and test it with the actual case.  I have the ability to mill and 3D print, I like these because you can pocket out where they mount and the glue them in the position you want.  On the top side you can paint, use a decal or add a dome.  They also support adding a wire. So if you really wanted you can add a wire running vertically in a 3d print or just print in conductive filament.  If a wire is used you will have finish work to do sanding buffing and coating the surface.  I saw this in high end Light Saber products 30 years ago. The sensors are a fun novelty, but they are non moving, so it also makes it possible to make a sealed product.  I've used that in interactive art installations. 

 

Here is a concept for a XEGS Fablit specifically using 10 inch HDMI 3:4 ratio screen - The only part not finished is the case it's self.  The 3D dome milling is not applied, it renders chunky but mills smooth in real life.  

 

The one part I was unable to get is Dropcheck's Cartridge Extension to relocate the port.

 

The hold up is getting the PVC sheet I need.

 

 

I'll do some experiments on the real case XEGS keyboard case.

 

 

[Simply_Graham]

Hi Michael

Just a thought, as the programming in the XEGS keyboard CPU to convert to PS/2 would be a fairly complex;

Would it make it easier to program a matching Pair of processors, a replacement for the TK II that matched a simpler Keyboard protocol, I do of course appreciate the only way to swap to using a PS/2 key board is to then swap the TK II chip, as I say just a thought.

[Bee]

Ok I have run a quick test.  You would need to wire directly to the pads to save vertical space.  My understanding is a field is calibrated around the pad on each power up of these sensors.  Using a real XEGS keyboard case.  I'm triggering the sensor with my middle finger after placing it and applying power.  If I make this alteration to my keyboard I will paint a outline in the corresponding button colors to see the "target area" on the top side.  A small piece fiber optic can work as a light pipe if you want to bring the LED to the surface.  Job Done.

 

 

After looking at it, I might even make a Aluminum Atari log to replace the help button so all the function keys could be sensors.  If I were any good at CAD I'd make a mockup.  Unfortunatly I'm just OK with CAD.  But I'd line up the sensors on the left side of the case.

 

http://www.the-liberator.net/site-files/retro-games/hardware/Atari-XE/atari-xe-keyboard.htm

 

Thank you

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Bee

[+mytek]

20 hours ago, Bee said:

I have milled PVC and used through similar thickness.  If I get time I'll open a Keyboard and test it with the actual case.  I have the ability to mill and 3D print, I like these because you can pocket out where they mount and the glue them in the position you want.  On the top side you can paint, use a decal or add a dome.  They also support adding a wire. So if you really wanted you can add a wire running vertically in a 3d print or just print in conductive filament.  If a wire is used you will have finish work to do sanding buffing and coating the surface.  I saw this in high end Light Saber products 30 years ago. The sensors are a fun novelty, but they are non moving, so it also makes it possible to make a sealed product.

Here is another possibility, although they are currently out of stock. You'd have to create your own pickup points, but this would be far cheaper way to go.

 

 

Standalone 5-Pad Capacitive Touch Sensor Breakout - AT42QT1070

PRODUCT ID: 1362

$7.50

 

18 hours ago, Simply_Graham said:

Hi Michael

Just a thought, as the programming in the XEGS keyboard CPU to convert to PS/2 would be a fairly complex;

Would it make it easier to program a matching Pair of processors, a replacement for the TK II that matched a simpler Keyboard protocol, I do of course appreciate the only way to swap to using a PS/2 key board is to then swap the TK II chip, as I say just a thought.

I really don't understand how that would be any simpler, and/or better than making the XEGS keyboard speak PS/2 that the existing TK-II chip will respond to in an appropriate way. So no changes are required in either the XEL or XLD, and it plugs straight into the provided PS/2 port on those systems. Because no matter what, you would have to have a protocol that worked over 2 lines as PS/2 does. So if I went the two processor route, the best I can do instead of the PS/2 protocol is to speak I2C or RS232 which is also a 2 line protocol. That would require a processor in the keyboard to still do the scanning of the key matrix and output I2C or RS232. Then new firmware would be needed for the TK-II chip to speak I2C or RS232. Seems like a lot of work to me, with no real advantage that I can see.

 

BTW, I already have routines to read and write PS/2, so those will get reused in the new firmware.

 

 

[Bee]

3 left

https://www.amazon.com/Adafruit-Standalone-Capacitive-Sensor-Breakout/dp/B00SK6M1M6/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=AT42QT1070&qid=1588441839&sr=8-1