Keatah Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 More and more are wanting the razor-sharp edges of glorious digital 1080p HD (and higher). And on Atari VCS games no less! All of a sudden, the crappy image generated by RF/Composite and even S-Video or RGB is lame and un-desirable. This is change in attitude is something that just started happening during the past year and has accelerated these past few months. Everything. EVERYTHING has to support hi-def HDMI. If not, it's lame and isn't worth mentioning. --- So. Wasn't it just last year or three ago, that Framemeister was the end all be all? And that everything had to have some sort of "analogness" to it? Wasn't the CRT the king of the hill? And anything less was unpure smelly swill? So what happened? Are we entering a new era where the old purists are dying off? Are the analog fans simply outnumbered? Are people tired of fussing and messing with mixing and matching cables, converters, and mods, to play classic games? And people on youtube are excited at the incredible sharpness and pixel-perfectness of VCS games running without shaders or smoothing routines (or natural CRT softness). Suddenly every game is new again. My ohh my! How times have changed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMenard Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 The purist are still here. But the CRTs are slowly dying and there's quite a bit of speculation and market manipulations on the available replacements, so people have to find alternatives. We're not using upscalers because we want to but because we have to since modern displays do such a lousy job at processing low res signal if they even have analog ports available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Exactly where is all this coming from? I haven't seen headlines or anything. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecadet Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Maybe I'm wrong, but this strikes me as a "many people are saying..." kind of thing. I've seen that some new devices *have* HDMI and of course the reviews comment on that, but it'd be kind of negligent if they didn't. Also, it obviously makes things easier to use on a modern TV, which is probably what most buyers of those devices are going to have. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 are we talking about classic editions? I mean, if Nintendo wants to sell them by the truckload of course they're going to use a connection most people are used to now and their sets have ample supply of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Sign of the times really. CRT was in a headline a year or two ago about some components not being made any longer globally so as they rot replacements will come harder as will just parts to keep one ticking. For even many purists at some point it will be an expensive futile effort. The issue with HD tends to be the unholy display lag as the crt style can be simulated well as seen on fpga devices like the super nt. Its a bit much acting like all are on board but the resistance is shrinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 For even many purists at some point it will be an expensive futile effort. Why would it ? What technical problem are we all going to face that makes it a expensive futile effort ? Why, after 30 - 40 years of going strong, would a CRT suddenly, catastrophically, fail in such a way that it's not repairable ? Why do I see more and more flat-screen TVs in my local electronics recycle tip, than I do CRTs ? These are HDTVs that have barely lasted 5 years, and they're thrown out because there is nothing serviceable inside. When they go, they go. When 8k, arrives, then watch as often perfectly working 4k sets are thrown out as the rush to get something "New and Shiny" takes over. It's already happened with 1080p, while 720p HD-Ready is long dead. Remember that ? What happens if/when HDMI gets replaced by something that might require DRM from the device to the TV, and the license to use it becomes ever-more expensive. I remember the same doom and gloom for Vinyl, and look what happened to that. In 2017, Vinyl sales accounted for one in every 10 physical music sale. Vinyl albums sold around 5 million, in the UK in 2017. I remember stories of your old record decks will eventually break down, as well as your speakers - I mean, who uses speakers anymore ?,</sarcasm>. All my consoles, computers, VFD Tabletop games, 80s LCD games,all still work perfectly. Only one of my Vectrex machines has a problem, and even then a good full re-cap will more than likely fix it. All my 14 CRTs, of various makes and models, all work perfectly. I mean, why would they suddenly fail, big time ? Sure, a cap might blow, but replace it and I'm good to go for many years. My CRT monitor's switches might go, but there will always be replacements, new old stock, or enthusiast-made replacements. I don't get this resistance thing ? What am I "Resisting" ? Are Vinyl owners resisting going full digital ? Are classic car owners resisting going to battery cars ? Infact, are car owers, full stop, resisting moving from fossil fuels to battery-powered cars ? I don't think I have ever seen a post, anywhere on the net, that said something like "You can't hold onto that V8 for long, soon you'll all have a Tesla". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 old man is out of touch what a surprise I joined AA in 2013 and it was already a massive topic even back then since HD screens were available and in demand for almost a decade at that point It just didnt happen within the last year and few months, it happened as soon as people started getting affordable HD tv sets and noticing that Analog Sources are crap and most of it was hidden by the average crap TV (unless you really got in and inspected it) Analog to Digital combined with non native resolutions made the image less than desirable Outside of the die hard's no one wants some behemoth sized chunk of a space heater sucking up 20% of their space, its been that way for a very long time (my first LCD and my last CRT computer monitor was in 2001 for instance) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 When CRT Boutiques are a real thing and become as common place as record stores and Sony starts churning out Trinitrons again after a long absence from the market place, that might be an apt comparison. But until then, uhm, it's not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 It's a perfectly valid comparison. But hey, it's you again, so why am I am surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Knob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 No its not valid. CRTs have a few common components that stopped being made a couple years ago. They havent gone strong for years and even the kings of cheap and piracy the Chinese finally said screw it and quit making the parts or full sets to sell years ago. Your car analogy is bullshit because the original parts are still made by the very makers (like ford) or multiple companies make indistinguishable repops. CRTs dont have that luxury. I find it as disturbing you have 14 CRT TVs are grasping at straws. They wont all fail at once which is why I said what I did about clingers going after limited parts and cannibalizing others for parts which with 14 you can do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) car companies are liable for 4 years of OEM service parts you just happen to be lucky that stuff has not changed that much the last known CRT maker (just the tube not the entire set) according to wackypedia shut down production in 2015, and I am sure it was a ultra premium product, not some shitbox 13 inch legacy thing, even a quick google search shows people "when did they stop making CRT tv's !?!?!" as early as 2011 so no it was not "a couple years ago" at best it was 3, at worst it was 7 last one I bought was in 2005 and even then they did not make them over 20 inches and it was a digital flat faced EDTV (aka 480p / 720i) so it wouldnt even work with light guns even then thanks to the electronics Edited July 22, 2018 by Osgeld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 CRTs have a few common components that stopped being made a couple years ago. Are these common components the ones that will stop my CRTs from functioning ? I see plenty of sellers from across the globe, all selling capacitors, diodes, switches, flybacks. Your car analogy is bullshit My analogy is to do with the death of the car. You might not be seeing these discussions, but they're happening. The death of cars, Vinyl, CDs, DVDs, CRTs, Videogame physical ownership. I see, among the retro community, CRT ownership getting bigger. Only a few weirdos on here who want this bizarre rush to HDMI everything. In a few years, your nice shiny 4k HDTV will be worth less than any of my branded CRTs from Atari, Philips, Sony, and Commodore - These only increases in value, not decrease. Eventually, HDMI will be replaced, and possibly by something a lot more DRM protected, and out of reach of hobbyists. Then what do you do ? Those nice flatscreens only last for so long. After reading this thread, I want more CRTs, not less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 (edited) The only irreplaceable part in a CRT is the CRT itself. Once the cathode has boiled away all its electrons, pffftt! That's it. While an electron gun can theoretically be replaced, it would need to be done in facilities rivaling the original factory, and then some. --- Personally I like dot-addressable displays. It's totally akin to and nothing short of a bit-perfect representation of a memory array. Can't get any closer and intimate to a game than that! It's a tech that designers of the day could only vaguely dream about. ADDED: And if we want the CRT look, we will synthesize it on the fly via GPU. Edited July 22, 2018 by Keatah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I wanted to say something, but...what's the use. "Purists", my ass. I'll leave you with a purist Picard instead and hit ignore on this self-convincing exercise. ............................................________....................................,.-'"...................``~.,.............................,.-"..................................."-.,.........................,/...............................................":,.....................,?......................................................,.................../...........................................................,}................./......................................................,:`^`..}.............../...................................................,:"........./..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../............./__.(....."~-,_..............................,:`........../.........../(_...."~,_........"~,_....................,:`........_/..........{.._$;_......"=,_......."-,_.......,.-~-,},.~";/....}...........((.....*~_......."=-._......";,,./`..../"............../...,,,___.`~,......"~.,....................`.....}............../............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-"............/.`~,......`-...................................../.............`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....,__,,_..........}.>-._...................................|..............`=~-,.....`=~-,__......`,....................................................`=~-,,.,...............................................................`:,,...........................`..............__.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``........................................_..........._,-%.......`..................................., 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 A few years back the rage was to mod your console to S-Video or RGB to some standard, any standard higher than RF/Composite, but not yet full-on HDMI. A full-on HDMI mod would not be cost effective and the complexity is terrifying. Putting a VCS analog signal onto the HDMI bus requires nothing short of a TIA remake or a complete off-console converter - in which case you capture all the noise too. So not practical. Today the gamer is looking for that HDMI compatibility. DEMANDING IT. All the reviews point it out. Read threads on upcoming mini-consoles. All the ready-made SoCs support it. No need to mention it. It's there. It's like advertising making a big deal of saying a car comes with 4 wheels. And the burden now rests upon the programmer to internally and digitally format and scale the image, whether it be an emulator, graphics driver, graphics library, or any traditional piece of software. For the longest time everyone was clamoring for the CRT look in emulators and mini-consoles. They were demanding the smoother vintage look of composite-on-CRT look. But Less than 2 years ago, more like 8 months ago even, the mood shifted. All that changed. A youtube review of the R77 pointed out that the unfiltered, un-smoothed, harsh/sharp & blocky VCS graphics looked great on HDMI. VCS never looked so good! But, yet, it looks the same on PC emulators which people continue to shit on because the graphics are blocky and don't look like the developers intended. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 ADDED: And if we want the CRT look, we will synthesize it on the fly via GPU. Possibly. When we perfect HDR, and TVs have a real high number of Nits(Far higher than we currently have), then we might be able to simulate that glow and brightness of a CRT. The GPU, though, will always only be a part of getting to this. But, so far, I have never seen truly accurate emulation of the Vectrex. Nothing looks anything like the real thing. It really doesn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 No need to be an abrasive jerk you know as I was siding with you. CRT as a whole tv sure but a read that a couple years back key parts were discontinued which if an old tv eats it and its that part youre screwed unless you farm parts. Im with you otherwise But damn what kind of delusion is there saying CRT ownership is growing. Bullshit prove that one. Keatah love the post on the nose with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Lol, triggered. I think you need some anger management. Bullshit prove that one. I see it every week on ebay. I could list quite a few of my own CRTs on ebay, now, and I guarantee you I WILL sell them, and quickly. There are posts on this very forum asking for CRT recommends. There are posts across the net, where many are seeing the benefits of a CRT when using classic systems, and want advice for what to get. PVMs, and BVMs, have never been so wanted than today. And their value reflects this. If none of these CRTs were wanted, then their value would be reflected in the prices. Retro, is bigger than it's been since the 80s, and it's NOT HDMI that is causing this resurgence. So prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F34R Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I can say that I enjoy playing retro consoles in hd via hdmi; super nt, nt mini for example. However, I like them more when playing on the PVM or a consumer FV310(27"). I got the FV310 six months ago and it was new, sealed in the box still, so there's that. Hopefully it will last a LONG time. My Ultrak CM1900cn was also new in the box (sealed), and that's my back up professional crt. If there's a time where I don't have a working CRT, I'll look for a replacement, but will also be fine with the HD retro gaming while I look. There's just something about playing SNES on a good quality CRT while sitting just over arms length away, versus 12 feet away from a 65" 4k tv playing the 4:3 SNES (hdmi) in what would be a 53" crt image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I don't mind HDMI, I do mind the exclusion of ANY other type of port though. Yeah everybody has LCD types, and most of those do have HDMI ports, but most have other ports too, and for low def devices, HDMI doesn't really make sense, unless you simply have no alternatives. I looked up the other day and I had 6 devices that I use regularly with only HDMI, and a tv with one port. I even started a topic in computers asking about splitter options, not because it's something I want, but something I'm required to have. I could have sworn 360 outputted in various things besides just HDMI. Maybe that was only the fat original one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Anger management? Just because you can find a selection of old tube tv on eBay doesnt mean the demand is up, it just means you have a bunch of tube tv luddites who cant get beyond where things have gone so they cling to them like life itself. This forum would be no different its about the Atari famaily primarily which for consoles died before HDMI was even a thing, so again, pandering the same audience which we see here quite a few have said to move on too. Retro maybe bigger than the 80s but back then in the 80s most people didnt even care to resurrect old stuff much plus you didnt have mass media and the internet feeding into peoples compulsive disorders either. Theres nothing that needs proving, you need some solid facts as the burden of proof is on your end. IF CRTS were so desirable and the retro market was so massive, show me a company that is going to start manufacturing the discontinued components and full blown sets again. Vinyl crawled out of the dumpster and is raging on for good reason, it actually offered audio with a superior quality over CD and tapes. Can you say that CRT outdoes the quality of a modern TV? (And I do not mean personal preference but factual, like vinyl records.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Can you say that CRT outdoes the quality of a modern TV? Seriously you are in a retro gaming forum and you are asking this question LOL. Let me just answer for everyone here and say YES, a hundred times yes. For our purposes a CRT out performs a modern TV. You can mod your systems all day to make them look good on newer TV's but odds are it will still be sub par in some way. As far as the demand goes, I definitely think the demand is more for retro gamers. This is the perfect time to get these CRT TV's because at least in my area in just the last year or so most places started charging to take old TV's and recycle them. As a result many people are offering them for free. Of course in instances like Trinitron's many places like Best Buy will still take those for free but people don't know this. Nobody is going to go through the trouble to re-manufacture these TV's when they are all over for free or next to nothing. The market has enough to fill the demand right now. Odds are the demand will never be high enough to re-manufacture a CRT TV as lets face it the only real marker for them is retro gamers. The cost to manufacture a huge TV will be too high for such a small market. Where as using LP's as an example they are cheap to make, ship, and don't take up as much room. Plus new music can be put on them making then desirable today not just to someone who wants to listen to 30 year old music. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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