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Keatah

The want for 1080p HD (and higher).

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Today the gamer is looking for that HDMI compatibility. DEMANDING IT. All the reviews point it out. Read threads on upcoming mini-consoles.

No shit they are demanding it, most of them have upgraded to televisions that primarily feature HDMI inputs. What century are you living in?

 

Even if a TV supports analog, composite looks like ass on a modern display. This is why it is desirable for a modern clone console to do some form of upscaling or display at a higher resolution. Also, we don't need another analog clone system, there is a glut of them--dozens from past years already exist and are readily available for those who want their eyes to bleed on a modern display.

 

Regarding some points in your original post, upscalers are desirable for RGB. The Framemeister was often brought up in the past because it was one of the earliest of its kind that focused on HDMI-out, and unlike other devices it also had the benefit of taking composite. That said, you don't buy a device like that just to upscale composite. Yes, it'll make composite look better than plugging straight in to the TV, but the reason to get it is to pair it with a console that supports RGB. Devices like that or the OSSC are still viable options for RGB and both are great devices even today. For the non-RGB capable devices, more modern clone systems like a Retron77 fits the bill nicely on a modern display.

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I don't personally know anyone that actually wants a crt. lol. The most I see, on a personal level, on facebook, is people I know giving theirs away lol. I have a Sony KV27FS120 that I want to give away.

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As you may remember from my recently doomed thread that turned into a poop-slinging contest, I just changed from a 25" CRT to a 42" 1080P plasma in my game room. The CRT still works fine, and I still have it, but I don't think it's going back in that room anytime soon.

 

You see, as time marches on, so does technology. I've wanted to play my 2000's-era disc based systems (PS2/PS3/Xbox/360/etc.) in that game room, and they look like hot garbage on my composite input CRT. I did run into some small snafus with the older stuff and the HDTV, but I'm currently sorting that out. Until I do, I have emulation to keep me playing the older games. My modded Wii and Retropie look great on this TV. That said, the older stuff is still 100% playable on the older consoles, and I'm just being a perfectionist.

 

I have nothing against CRT's. CRT's are great at some things, but so are HDTV's. They are not making CRT's anymore, and likely never will again. That is the reality of things, and there's no need to get bent out of shape over it and shake our fists to the sky. We will learn and adapt, like we always have.

 

And the whole "electric car is replacing gas cars" argument is bad at best. While I'm not playing video games, I'm a freelance auto journalist.

 

Since the inception of the automobile, there have been electric cars. They have been around for over 100 years now. They have, and currently are, a niche market. They are nowhere near replacing internal combustion engine-powered cars, and I don't see them fully replacing them ever. In contrast, TV's have changed completely from CRT's to flat-panel displays. There's no "niche market" there. They HAVE replaced CRT's.

 

A better analogy would be cars running a carburetor vs. cars running electronic fuel injection. Older cars, like my own 1979 Trans Am, came with a carburetor from the factory. It relies on mechanical parts to work. At the time, the tech was there to produce an EFI car, but it was expensive and not quite as proven yet. Later EFI cars do the same job of mixing air and fuel, but are electronically computer controlled to be more efficient. You'll find purists who run carbs because that's the tech they like, and you'll find guys who have retrofitted modern EFI to their classic rides. When you do that, you have to change some things to make it work, like the wiring harness, fuel pump, and more. The result is a classic car that acts like a modern one. It has all the looks and driveability of the classic, with the performance of a new one. Sure, there are a few concessions, but many believe the end result is worth it.

 

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? ;-)

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Since the inception of the automobile, there have been electric cars. They have been around for over 100 years now. They have, and currently are, a niche market. They are nowhere near replacing internal combustion engine-powered cars, and I don't see them fully replacing them ever. In contrast, TV's have changed completely from CRT's to flat-panel displays. There's no "niche market" there. They HAVE replaced CRT's.

 

I think you are on about something completely different to me. I have replaced ALL my CRT TVs, for watching TV, Movies, Blu-Ray, Xbox 360/One/PS3/PS4. There is, like you said, no niche market for that.

I use CRTs to connect a Atari 800XL/ C64/ ZX Spectrum/2600/Colecovision etc... A Commodore 64 looks so much better on my Commodore 1701 than my C64 mini does on my Sharp Aquos 60" LED TV. The mini is dreadful, it doesn't even play sid music properly.

 

So, just to be sure here. I do NOT use a CRT TV, AS A TV. And haven't used one like this for years. I could never watch Blu-Ray Bladerunner 2077 on a 4k TV, then go and watch a DVD version on a CRT. That would be nuts.

But at the same time, I can't use my ZX Spectrum, with a interface called ZX-HD - which connects a ZX Spectrum to my Sharp LED via HDMI - I can't use this, it looks wrong, to me. I use my ZX Spectrum with a Ferguson RGB Interface on a Sony Trinitron. RGB looks amazing.

 

Another thing, my car analogy isn't about the actual physical car itself, it's about the conversations about the car vs bike. I can take the OP's post, replace CRT with Car/Vinyl/Digital Downloads, and the conversations go the same way. Perhaps you aren't seeing this in the US. But here in the UK, the "End of the Car" is posted in online Newspaper articles almost every month. And the comments sections all look exactly like the ones here. There is a massive divide between Car ownership, and bike ownership. The last one got really nasty with some car owners saying things like "If I see you on MY road, riding your bike, I will knock you off and drive off laughing" - They really get nasty. And the defenders of car ownership defend theirs, while those who see technology marching on see car ownership as a thing of the past.

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To clarify:

 

Most people who drive classic cars don't drive them as their daily mode of transportation. They drive them for recreation and occasional use. There are people with these cars who are purists and don't want to modify anything, and there are people who want to modify EVERYTHING bolted to the car, from the tires to the engine management system. The people who modify their cars typically use the latest in technology to improve/change the experience. These modifications make it easier for these cars to exist in the current environment.

 

Most people who run CRT's don't use them as their daily television. They use them for recreation and occasional use. Like car people, there are purists who want the original experience, and those who want a newer, more modern setup that can mostly do it all with some modifications. The people who modify their gaming setups with modern HDTV's and their supporting mods are using the latest in technology to improve/change the experience.These modifications make it easier for the older consoles to exist in the current environment.

 

Aside from the hyperbole of cars ceasing to exist (I've read the same garbage in some of the publications here as well), the analogy I provided does work.

 

Again, I have nothing against CRT's. They are great for what they are meant to do. I may even put a smaller one back in the game room next to the HDTV!

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A Commodore 64 looks so much better on my Commodore 1701 than my C64 mini does on my Sharp Aquos 60" LED TV.

 

I am pretty sure if your 1701 was 60 inches it would look quite odd as well, I use a 13 inch LCD for all my retro computer stuff, it looks extremely good, and its much better than the 13 inch trinatron that it replaced (as something like white text on a black bg would always bloom like crazy on that thing)

 

The mini is dreadful, it doesn't even play sid music properly.

 

Not really the TV's fault, I am sure something that cant produce sound right has a perfect image coming out of it as well

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I play PS2/Xbox on the PVM and FV310 and it looks gorgeous. I haven't tried my PS3, but the 360 stuff can be ok as well. I didn't have an HD tv until late 2008. So three years in, I played the 360 on a CRT.

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I use a 13 inch LCD for all my retro computer stuff, it looks extremely good, and its much better than the 13 inch trinatron that it replaced

 

Yet, I bet my 1701, a CRT that was actually meant for the C64, looks even better than your LCD. Especially since I am using the proper Chroma + Luma cable.

 

 

 

Not really the TV's fault

 

Of course. But then, my comment was more of a dig at the mini, than the TV. The image of the mini reminds of Winvice running on my PC. Just too perfect, too sharp, everything too defined. If you like that look, great. I don't, which is also great.

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Everyone who has a 1701 monitor loves them.

 

Whenever I get mildly interested in having one of my own, I see things like this

 

Commodore 1701 Color CRT Monitor. Back audio port is dirty / loose but stable unless jostled. Video is bright and clear. Pots clean and stable. Missing front door and a clip or guide is snapped off in the center otherwise typical case wear. Sold as-is no return due to age.

$130 Buy It Now, $69 shipping. Hard pass. I think I'll just something I already have, that isn't shaped like a cube.

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What's with all the car talk? :? There's tons of companies specializing in old cars making engine blocks, pistons and conrods , crankshafts, cylinder liners, headers, exhaust pipes, floor pans, replica wheels,throttle bodies that look like old carbs, new ignition systems, disc brake retro fit to drums, retro looking HVAC, seats, upholstery basically anything you can think of.

 

No one's making New tubes or electron guns and no one is offering services to rebuild them, the last shop that actually did that closed down a couple years ago.

Edited by keepdreamin

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Electric cars better be ready to replace combustion engines or we're all screwed.

 

I've been dumbfounded by the slow adoption of electric cars, and finally concluded that people are stupid assholes, myself notwithstanding (our two cars are hybrids, not electrics).

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I've been dumbfounded by the slow adoption of electric cars, and finally concluded that people are stupid assholes,

 

You mean the people charging twice as much or more for them or the people unwilling to pay twice as much or more for them?

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Sure, if you only buy new.

 

CRT's don't even stay plugged in when not in use. My main fear is just generally wearing out from old age.

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I'd be happy with a compromise of the two.

 

I couldn't care less about being a purist, or being era-accurate for a specific retro system's original output. I like a nice clean, sharp picture. I have no want for the nostalgia of shitty RF interference or rolling bars or NTSC color artifacting. That stuff all looks like shit and inferior.

 

However, I wish there were some kind of device that would allow newer HDTVs to properly display interlaced flicker refresh rates when needed, so that things like the Sega Master System 3D glasses and Light gun games still worked on non-CRT HDTVs.

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I'd be happy with a compromise of the two.

 

I couldn't care less about being a purist, or being era-accurate for a specific retro system's original output. I like a nice clean, sharp picture. I have no want for the nostalgia of shitty RF interference or rolling bars or NTSC color artifacting. That stuff all looks like shit and inferior.

 

Yes it does. I had to contend with it all when I was a kid and I'm glad to have tech today that doesn't unnecessarily distort or muddy the image. Not only would the CRT & RF combo (the way it was meant to be) be prone to interference, it would also create interference on televisions and antennas immediately nearby.

 

However I do like a little of the artifacting, smudging, fuzzies and bloomies. But just a little. A little bit of flavoring, as I dislike the lazer-razor sharp images generated by emulators on a digital screen. So I make use of their filters. But just a bit.

 

I also disliked the seemingly ongoing geometry, color-balance, size, and other analog adjustments that always (true or not) needed some sort of tweaking and nudging. Especially that color tuning. Ughh..!!

 

 

However, I wish there were some kind of device that would allow newer HDTVs to properly display interlaced flicker refresh rates when needed, so that things like the Sega Master System 3D glasses and Light gun games still worked on non-CRT HDTVs.

 

To get a light-gun to work on non-CRT LCD displays - is going to take a completely different approach than simply getting the right converter. Flicker or interlace or whatever. No go. The lightgun will need some re-designing and perhaps make use of some modern-day technologies.

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You guys are over exagerating crt/rf quality problems. And I haven't adjusted the thing in years. Some crt televisions did have a better dot pitch than others providing clearer text e.g. toshiba, sony. I like the extra blocky look on modern displays, but in some cases the larger pixels can interfere with gameplay. A clean sharp picture is great but if you're serious about your scores a small crt tv will give you the best performance with less hassle.

Edited by mr_me
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To get a light-gun to work on non-CRT LCD displays - is going to take a completely different approach than simply getting the right converter. Flicker or interlace or whatever. No go. The lightgun will need some re-designing and perhaps make use of some modern-day technologies.

this isn't entirely correct. I have a 65" Mitsubishi Full HD 1080p DLP set in my living room from 2009, that when set to game mode does display native refresh rates of composite and component inputs with no scaling or interpolation - so Sega Master System 3D and Light Gun games work perfectly on it. But, its not my Game Room mancave TV.

 

So its not that modern TVs can't display this stuff correctly, its that the TV manufacturers don't build them to do that anymore. But it can be done.

Edited by John Stamos Mullet

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Dlp scans the screen similar to a crt panel displays do not (does anyone even make dlp screens anymore)

Edited by Osgeld

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Dlp scans the screen similar to a crt panel displays do not (does anyone even make dlp screens anymore)

If current LCD TV manufacturers wanted to, they could make a TV with a true, native 480i/240p refresh rate with no scanline interpolation or line doubling/scaling that would display these videogame console inputs as intended. They choose not to, because for the most part that's undesirable to most consumers. Us retro videogaming weirdos are a tiny niche in the market not worth investing in, unfortunately.

 

Also - they probably realize that they would have to take a ton of angry support calls, and bear the cost of a larger number of TV returns at retail from all the morons who accidentally set their TVs to the native 480i display setting and then thought their TV was "broken" because it "looks like shit now". LOL.

 

I don't think anyone makes DLP TV sets anymore, which is a shame. They still have better picture quality when compared to most LCD format TVs, and don't ever suffer burn-in like CRT and LCD sets can.

 

Most Movie Theaters still use DLP projectors exclusively, though.

Edited by John Stamos Mullet
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The input lag on HDTVs has been steadily improving - mine is 13.5ms over one of the HDMI ports, which is slightly less than one frame. Pair that with practically lag-less upscalers like OSSC or RetroTINK2 and the need for CRTs to play classic games at their best is diminishing.

 

There's still the body of people who demand on nothing less than RGB to a CRT (preferably PVM) for the most authentic look, but recent technology improvements have made HDTVs pretty damned good for classic gaming with original hardware. I have a Trinitron in my basement that I use for original hardware, but when I can get my hands on an OSSC I'll probably put it in storage in the garage. I'd still prefer the look of a CRT, but it's just not practical space-wise.

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The input lag on HDTVs has been steadily improving - mine is 13.5ms over one of the HDMI ports, which is slightly less than one frame. Pair that with practically lag-less upscalers like OSSC or RetroTINK2 and the need for CRTs to play classic games at their best is diminishing.

 

There's still the body of people who demand on nothing less than RGB to a CRT (preferably PVM) for the most authentic look, but recent technology improvements have made HDTVs pretty damned good for classic gaming with original hardware. I have a Trinitron in my basement that I use for original hardware, but when I can get my hands on an OSSC I'll probably put it in storage in the garage. I'd still prefer the look of a CRT, but it's just not practical space-wise.

Yep.

 

My primary gaming display is a recently purchased Sharp 55" 4K UHD set. I have everything from a non-modded RF-direct adapter connected Coleco Gemini to a PS3 with HDMI connected to it, and across the board it looks great. I do have a cheap Enko Composite to HDMI scaler, which helps with the wonky scanlines from the Sega Genesis/32X, but I have to say that my UAV modded 7800 and un-modded Sega Master System using composite look absolutely great on this TV - even without the scaler directly connected to it's composite input.

 

My only bummer is the incompatibility with the SMS 3D games.

Edited by John Stamos Mullet

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There's still the body of people who demand on nothing less than RGB to a CRT (preferably PVM) for the most authentic look,

 

lol, this makes me laugh. Which console came stock w/RGB?

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lol, this makes me laugh. Which console came stock w/RGB?

SMS, MD/Genesis, SNES, Neo Geo, Saturn, PS1, every arcade PCB, nearly every Japanese computer system.

 

RGB is the most authentic. Even most systems without RGB output start with RGB before it gets encoded to composite and S-video. RGB is the language of retro consoles.

Edited by DJ Clae

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SMS, MD/Genesis, SNES, Neo Geo, Saturn, PS1, every arcade PCB, nearly every Japanese computer system.

 

RGB is the most authentic. Even most systems without RGB output start with RGB before it gets encoded to composite and S-video. RGB is the language of retro consoles.

 

Here I thought all these systems needed modded to be RGB. So basically they make an RGB to RF cable or maybe a composite to RGB, I did not know this.

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No they output on their multi pin av ports along with composite and audio

 

Think the ps2 does it as well it shares the same av port as ps1

Edited by Osgeld

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