Introducing: AntiX, the ANTIC Switch !

[Gunstar]

I used to have the PAL Antic only in my now PAL 1200XL, but went full PAL conversion with crystal and GTIA board from Dropcheck. It worked great as long as I had my 50/60Hz 1084s, now down until repaired (for my other NTSC 1200XL). But my NTSC 1200XL is getting VBXE, so it can't have AntiX. But I wonder about installing AntiX onto my PAL GTIA board, so my now PAL 1200XL could run some software at about NTSC speeds...probably only a question of if the two piggy-backed boards would fit under the hood/bonnet...

 

But you are really saying that a 50Hz PAL Atari, with only a change of the Antic to NTSC increases the speed to NTSC or about, game speeds?!? I never thought it of any use to do the Hybrid trick on a PAL machine with an NTSC Antic because unlike an NTSC Atari, all NTSC software I've ever tried on my PAL1200XL works fine, just at 50Hz. The reason for PAL Antic in an NTSC machine was because PAL software did NOT run fine in an NTSC machine, but with the PAL Antic installed, most of it did work, plus still NTSC compatibility wasn't lost.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Gunstar

[Level42]

Why is that surprising?

I thought it could be supported by firmware ? Dunno....

 

By the way Jon, I can still switch AntiX with U1MB ....just takes a bit getting used to....

[flashjazzcat]

VBXE emulates GTIA on-board (although the emulated GTIA output appears only on the RGB signal), but relies on an actual ANTIC chip, so you'd need to shoe-horn two ANTICs onto the adapter, and I doubt that crossed anyone's mind during the VBXE design phase. Current revision Lotharek boards do have both NTSC and PAL master crystals, however, selectable by a jumper, so if you do a chip swap, you can actually get the proper frequency for legacy video without soldering anything.

[Level42]

Aha !

[Swami]

One of the things I'm confused by when using a a PAL computer vs an NTSC computer:

 

1) on a PAL computer, the output changes from PAL50 to PAL60 with the change to NTSC ANTIC. 50 Hz to 60Hz

2) on an NTSC computer, the output changes from NTSC to PAL-M with change to a PAL ANTIC. 60 Hz both

 

So the frequency changes on the PAL computer when switching ANTICs, but not on the NTSC computer? or is this a mistake? Or is it some kind of PAL-M50?

[tane]

AntiX and Sophia.

The best application of AntiX is to partner AntiX with the Sophia video modification. Installing both AntiX and Sophia in your machine is a particularly good choice if your machine is originally a NTSC machine.

 

How to install AntiX

Remove your existing ANTIC and put it in the Position 1 socket on the AntiX PCB. Then put the second ANTIC in Position 2 on the AntiX PCB. Next, put the AntiX PCB in the empty ANTIC socket. Naturally, on XEs and other machines without socketed ANTIC you will need to desolder the ANTIC and solder in a socket. For 400/800 machines a ribbon extension cable and adapter are required.

 

For a 130XE / 65XE with Sophia, it will be required a ribbon extension cable and an adapter:

 

Sophia:

Edited October 19, 2018 by tane

[Level42]

You could use the 400/800 adapter for it possibly.

 

Or maybe raise the Sophia with an extra socket ?

[Gunstar]

One of the things I'm confused by when using a a PAL computer vs an NTSC computer:

 

1) on a PAL computer, the output changes from PAL50 to PAL60 with the change to NTSC ANTIC. 50 Hz to 60Hz

2) on an NTSC computer, the output changes from NTSC to PAL-M with change to a PAL ANTIC. 60 Hz both

 

So the frequency changes on the PAL computer when switching ANTICs, but not on the NTSC computer? or is this a mistake? Or is it some kind of PAL-M50?

This is essentially what I was asking above, how just changing the Antic to NTSC will give me PAL 60 on a 50Hz machine. But this evening I decided to experiment for myself, as I have an extra NTSC Antic because my PAL computer is a 1200XL I converted to PAL wtih Dropcheck's PAL GTIA board, 50Hz crystals and PAL Anitc. Well, I swapped my old NTSC Antic back into my PAL converted Atari, turned it on, and tested some games. Sure enough, and I don't know how, I'm playing games with full NTSC screen size and 60Hz game speeds! Even the Pokey plays everything faster like on an NTSC machine! And that's just swapping the Anitc with no AntiX board at all (though I can't switch back as easily-if need be, but I see no need right now). I've finally got the best of both worlds on my 1200XL with full PAL compatibility and I have my games running at NTSC full screen and speed again! But then it was supposed to be impossible to just put an PAL Antic in an NTSC and have it work at all or with PAL software, yet ndary gave it a shot years ago and it worked! And it's definitely not some kind of PAL-M50, I see the difference of 60Hz immediately with Space Harrier, running faster and NO FLICKER in the graphics anymore like I had with PAL Antic! Stunt Car Racer also runs faster and smoother and that song is playing much faster too! I don't know why or how, but it works!

Edited October 19, 2018 by Gunstar

[Level42]

One of the things I'm confused by when using a a PAL computer vs an NTSC computer:

 

1) on a PAL computer, the output changes from PAL50 to PAL60 with the change to NTSC ANTIC. 50 Hz to 60Hz

2) on an NTSC computer, the output changes from NTSC to PAL-M with change to a PAL ANTIC. 60 Hz both

 

So the frequency changes on the PAL computer when switching ANTICs, but not on the NTSC computer? or is this a mistake? Or is it some kind of PAL-M50?

 

 

 

Nope, on a NTSC machine, with a PAL ANTIC selected, you will get 50Hz.

[Level42]

This is essentially what I was asking above, how just changing the Antic to NTSC will give me PAL 60 on a 50Hz machine. But this evening I decided to experiment for myself, as I have an extra NTSC Antic because my PAL computer is a 1200XL I converted to PAL wtih Dropcheck's PAL GTIA board, 50Hz crystals and PAL Anitc. Well, I swapped my old NTSC Antic back into my PAL converted Atari, turned it on, and tested some games. Sure enough, and I don't know how, I'm playing games with full NTSC screen size and 60Hz game speeds! Even the Pokey plays everything faster like on an NTSC machine! And that's just swapping the Anitc with no AntiX board at all (though I can't switch back as easily-if need be, but I see no need right now). I've finally got the best of both worlds on my 1200XL with full PAL compatibility and I have my games running at NTSC full screen and speed again! But then it was supposed to be impossible to just put an PAL Antic in an NTSC and have it work at all or with PAL software, yet ndary gave it a shot years ago and it worked! And it's definitely not some kind of PAL-M50, I see the difference of 60Hz immediately with Space Harrier, running faster and NO FLICKER in the graphics anymore like I had with PAL Antic! Stunt Car Racer also runs faster and smoother and that song is playing much faster too! I don't know why or how, but it works!

 

Of course it works I'm not telling fairytales here :D

 

AntiX is nothing but a dumb switch between two ANTICs. You may be happy with having multiple machines constantly set-up to run what you like, but I prefer to have only my main (600XL) machine set-up and running as my "master" machine, even though I own many A8 machines.

AntiX provides the possibility to very quickly switch between PAL/NTSC ANTICs in one machine. That's it....nothing more, but certainly nothing less

 

But uhmmm....it seems to me you never watched the videos we made for the AntiX website so let me post them here for others to enjoy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh by the way, yes POKEY plays "faster" in NTSC setting compared to PAL.....what you are experiencing is the actual game speed as intended.....at least with the (older) US software. Thankfully....POKEY is smartly designed to it still plays the (about) the same notes....so only the speed is faster.

[Level42]

Oh and.....I never play the classic "older" games in PAL setting anymore......can't stand the slower speed anymore

 

Since I prefer the older games, it means my AntiX is set to NTSC probably 80% of the time. Even if you so simple stuff like programming, text- editing or whatever, you will gain the 60Hz which is easier on the eye, plus you have the screen in it's proper aspect ratio, not squashed down like PAL.....

[Swami]

Oh and.....I never play the classic "older" games in PAL setting anymore......can't stand the slower speed anymore

 

Since I prefer the older games, it means my AntiX is set to NTSC probably 80% of the time. Even if you so simple stuff like programming, text- editing or whatever, you will gain the 60Hz which is easier on the eye, plus you have the screen in it's proper aspect ratio, not squashed down like PAL.....

Okay. Thanks! That explains the rolling on my NTSC only TV with PAL ANTIC in NTSC 800xl. I had read the PAL ANTIC converts it to a PAL-M console, but I also read on Wikipedia that PAL-M is 60Hz. So, this appears to be something different since it is 50Hz, like NTSC50 or PAL-M50. I guess it depends on whatever the color palette and other frequency parameters matches best, in addition to the 50Hz.

[Level42]

Yes, we made a mistake onmthe AntiX website. It has been corrected. What TV do you use ? If its a CRT you might be able to adjust sobit will sync at 50Hz.

 

Bu the way....I just tried AntiX in a 1200XL. Needs an extra socket to make it "float" over GTIA but works fine.

[Level42]

Yes, we made a mistake on the AntiX website. It has been corrected. What TV do you use ? If its a CRT you might be able to adjust so it will sync at 50Hz.

 

By the way....I just tried AntiX in a 1200XL. Needs an extra socket to make it "float" over GTIA but works fine.

The same set-up should work fine in a 130XE.

 

You may need to remove the metal shiels though...

[+remowilliams]

By the way....I just tried AntiX in a 1200XL. Needs an extra socket to make it "float" over GTIA but works fine.

 

Hmm. So this won't fit in a 1200XL with a Sophia then?

[Swami]

Yes, we made a mistake onmthe AntiX website. It has been corrected. What TV do you use ? If its a CRT you might be able to adjust sobit will sync at 50Hz.

 

Bu the way....I just tried AntiX in a 1200XL. Needs an extra socket to make it "float" over GTIA but works fine.

I have a panasonic and sharp crt from 2002. No vertical hold (this disappeared from standard TVs from 1977 - 1984 in the US; Remember the commercials around 1980 about solid state televisions?). I also have an LCD that is multisystem, but does not like the hybrid signal: blue screen and aspect ratios switch in and out about once per second.

 

I'm curious what I would get with a pal 800xl with NTSC antic and gtia on the NTSC crt with no converter.

 

Unless the fix is pretty simple, don't worry about it. I don't want to derail the thread over my question.

[tane]

Hmm. So this won't fit in a 1200XL with a Sophia then?

 

 

With a PCB with holes in its four corners, it will be possible to attach it over the metal shield. And a ribbon cable.

 

 

 

Also (if possible), a design with less height, in order to fit between the shield and the top (or soldering the Antics in the PCB without socket).

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by tane

[Gunstar]

Yes, we made a mistake on the AntiX website. It has been corrected. What TV do you use ? If its a CRT you might be able to adjust so it will sync at 50Hz.

 

By the way....I just tried AntiX in a 1200XL. Needs an extra socket to make it "float" over GTIA but works fine.

The same set-up should work fine in a 130XE.

 

You may need to remove the metal shiels though...

I'll need more than one extra socket to get it to "float" over my PAL GTIA conversion board in my 1200XL!

Edited October 19, 2018 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

 

Of course it works I'm not telling fairytales here :D

 

AntiX is nothing but a dumb switch between two ANTICs. You may be happy with having multiple machines constantly set-up to run what you like, but I prefer to have only my main (600XL) machine set-up and running as my "master" machine, even though I own many A8 machines.

AntiX provides the possibility to very quickly switch between PAL/NTSC ANTICs in one machine. That's it....nothing more, but certainly nothing less

 

But uhmmm....it seems to me you never watched the videos we made for the AntiX website so let me post them here for others to enjoy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh by the way, yes POKEY plays "faster" in NTSC setting compared to PAL.....what you are experiencing is the actual game speed as intended.....at least with the (older) US software. Thankfully....POKEY is smartly designed to it still plays the (about) the same notes....so only the speed is faster.

It wasn't that I thought you were telling fairytales, I just wondered if it would work WITHOUT your board at 60HZ instead of 50Hz. I'm also quite aware of the difference between PAL and NTSC speeds and faster POKEY, etc., I am an American, I grew up with NTSC Atari's! I knew what I was seeing with the NTSC Antic running in my PAL 1200XL that I personally converted FROM NTSC! I did it for full compatibility across the board, but I did miss full screen height and full NTSC speed.

 

I just wanted to play around for a bit swapping the Antics until I can actually lay my hands on one of your AntiX boards. It'll be nice to switch between both. I found out rather quickly experimenting that while NTSC games work great in my PAL with NTSC Antic, PAL software has serious issue sometimes running under those circumstances...definitely need to be able to switch between both Antics when needed!

 

But I also don't need to watch your videos, I've been well experienced for YEARS with standard NTSC, NTSC with PAL Antic hybrid, and standard PAL. And now PAL with NTSC Antic hybrid after experimenting last night! Apparently you just "browsed" my previous posts instead of carefully reading them, or you wouldn't be replying like you have...I'm NO newbie to this stuff at all! (except for NTSC Antic in PAL machine; now I'm experienced with it too!)

Edited October 19, 2018 by Gunstar

[Level42]

Hmm. So this won't fit in a 1200XL with a Sophia then?

Sophia sits pretty low....at least on my 600XL. Might fit.....will try Sunday.

[Level42]

Replying like I have ??? What did I do wrong this time ?

 

No clue......nor do I care. I just explained and the videos may not have been seen by everybody interested here since we only linked to the website before...

 

Good to hear your positive results and Ill be setting up manufacturing soon because we already have interest in about 25 AntiXes, which is amazing !!!

Edited October 19, 2018 by Level42

[Level42]

I'll need more than one extra socket to get it to "float" over my PAL GTIA conversion board in my 1200XL!

Looks like the 400/800 ribbon cable and adapter will be a better option for cases like this

Edited October 19, 2018 by Level42

[Level42]

With a PCB with holes in its four corners, it will be possible to attach it over the metal shield. And a ribbon cable.

 

2014314175740920.jpg

 

 

Also (if possible), a design with less height, in order to fit between the shield and the top (or soldering the Antics in the PCB without socket).

 

Image1.jpg

Well.....I think I spent the most time on thinking of ways to make AntiX be as low as possible, because I insisted on it it to fit in my 600XL with metal backed keyboard.....which is probably the setup with the least space available, although surprisingly the 800XL isn’t that much better due to PCB position of ANTIC.

 

Be sure that the minimum height is my top priority, Remember what’s you are seeing are prototypes.

 

I already reduced height thanks to a tip from Simius, which meant using larger holes than normally so I can “sink” a socket from the top pretty deep. Next the pins are soldered and then the top of the socket is cut off. This costs a lot of time and is clumsy, so I’m open to better suggestions for the pins on the underside of the PCB. Remember that there’s still ANTIC that needs to be over those pins.

 

For the topside:

There are also ultra low sockets in existence, they are expensive but they exist and are nice. However you can only use them for the front ANTIC not the backside one, because under that ANTIC lies the switch IC.

 

I will have to figure this out with the manufacturer in China.....because it also requires cutting away top of socket and mounting stuff in a certain order or you will be screwed,....but the Chinese are clever....

 

I’m not in favour of soldering ANTICs into the AntiX PCB, but if people,don’t mind.....it is possible of course.....

[tane]

How do you plan to attach the PCB for the ribbon cases? It must be mechanical and strong, like a PCB with holes in the corners (--> some holes under the Antics?).

Edited October 20, 2018 by tane

[Gunstar]

Replying like I have ??? What did I do wrong this time ?

 

No clue......nor do I care. I just explained and the videos may not have been seen by everybody interested here since we only linked to the website before...

 

Good to hear your positive results and Ill be setting up manufacturing soon because we already have interest in about 25 AntiXes, which is amazing !!!

Sorry, was not in the best of moods earlier, I could have been less harsh, but it seemed like you were patronizing me, and "sending me on my way" with some videos, which I felt was because you didn't catch everything I said or you would've known I didn't need the basics.