DOS mode on Win 95/98 controllers

[Swami]

Probably a long shot, but anyone here know how a controller that has both DOS mode and Win 95/98 mode and 8 buttons plus 4 programmable buttons, most of which use an included Win95/98 software program for setup, transmits the button 1-4 data in DOS mode. DOS mode on the controller just has the x and y axis and buttons 1-4. I am trying to get a controller like this, a racing wheel, working on an Atari 5200. The four buttons show up in the controller check program on my modern laptop when I use a gameport to USB adapter, but do nothing on the 5200, even though I can get the wheel and pedals to work. Using a multimeter I see resistances between the button pin and ground pin of 195 kohms for pin 4 ground, 10 Mohms slowly dropping to 1 Mohm for pin 5 ground, 10kohms for pin 15 ground and 10kohms or infinite resistance on the +5V pins 1, 8 and 9. Resistances do not change when I push the buttons.

[mr_me]

Is it a generic gameport-usb adapter or is it one that came with that specific controller? When you say dos mode and windows mode is there a switch on the controller that says dos / windows?

[Swami]

Is it a generic gameport-usb adapter or is it one that came with that specific controller? When you say dos mode and windows mode is there a switch on the controller that says dos / windows?

The gp to USB adapter came with some other pc controller I got. It has wheel, joystick and gamepad switch on it.

 

Yes, there is a switch on the wheel the switches between windows and dos mode.

[mr_me]

It sounds like the output should be a standard gameport pinout. Not that it should make a difference but do all three settings on the usb adapter work?

 

http://old.pinouts.ru/Inputs/GameportPC_pinout.shtml

 

Have you successfully wired up other gameport controllers directly to the 5200?

[Swami]

It sounds like the output should be a standard gameport pinout. Not that it should make a difference but do all three settings on the usb adapter work?

 

http://old.pinouts.ru/Inputs/GameportPC_pinout.shtml

 

Have you successfully wired up other gameport controllers directly to the 5200?

 

All three settings work. Actually, the buttons and the wheel show proper behavior, with the wheel behaving in analog fashion, while the pedals show up, but the centering is always way off.

 

I've used numerous other gameport controllers, including a couple other racing wheels. I've even used a PS2 dual shock with a PS2 to PC gameport adapter. I'm thinking that maybe the moderate or slowly dropping resistance between button pins and ground pins on my multimeter may indicate transistors or op-amps to regulate voltage, like some kind of gating. So, maybe it's putting out 3V DC or 3V pulses, instead of 5V constant DC. My windows 10 software can pick it up, but not the 5200. That is just a wild guess based on the weird resistance readings I'm getting.

 

I'm going to try to hook up my cell phone battery backup to the power pins and see if that changes the resistance readings.

[+wongojack]

There are a lot of threads on this in the forums, but you cannot just hook PC gameport controllers to the 5200 and have the analog work correctly. You need to build an adapter with capacitors to handle the variation in resistance required by the 5200.

 

If your goal is to get it working on the 5200 then post in the 5200 section or at least start your search for answers there. AtariAge user Bohoki often sells the adapters required to do exactly what you are trying to do. He usually has a few available if you message him directly.

[Swami]

There are a lot of threads on this in the forums, but you cannot just hook PC gameport controllers to the 5200 and have the analog work correctly. You need to build an adapter with capacitors to handle the variation in resistance required by the 5200.

 

If your goal is to get it working on the 5200 then post in the 5200 section or at least start your search for answers there. AtariAge user Bohoki often sells the adapters required to do exactly what you are trying to do. He usually has a few available if you message him directly.

 

The bohoki adapter is what I have to make the other controllers work. I built my own box that also works that does other refinements, as well. The analog works great on the 5200, the fire buttons are what didn't work. I now think this wheel has some kind of emulator in it to emulate DOS mode for the buttons, so I'm moving on. This was a special case where the DOS mode worked on my Windows laptop but not on the 5200, so I wanted to find out how controllers that have both windows 98 and dos mode work on classic computers like the 486 and Pentium.

[Swami]

It sounds like the output should be a standard gameport pinout. Not that it should make a difference but do all three settings on the usb adapter work?

 

http://old.pinouts.ru/Inputs/GameportPC_pinout.shtml

 

Have you successfully wired up other gameport controllers directly to the 5200?

 

Between fire buttons and grounds I obtained much different resistances than before when I inverted the multimeter leads. With the 5V battery pack attached, I saw small (mv level) voltages rising to move positive voltage between one button pin and ground and falling between a second button pin and the same ground to negative volatges, so I'm thinking from all this odd behavior there must be an emulator chip or complex gating scheme converting the data stream or matrix into DOS within the wheel. Its nothing I want to try to unravel anymore. This was my best wheel, so I wanted to see if I could get it to work. I think only the buttons go through the emulator, as the wheel and pedals always work the same.

[Swami]

I read up a bit on this and I found a post about how some later dos mode controllers only work in a dos box in windows and not in true dos. I suspect they send out a different sort of signal that uses windows to interpret the device as dos. I think it is kind of like how a genesis pad can be wired to work on an Atari 7200 with a bit of rewiring, but ColecoVision controller on 7800 would take lot more effort.

[mr_me]

When you say dos mode I understand that to mean standard pc gameport, i.e. four button, four axis communicating in parallel as described in that link. It was supported by microsoft through at least windows xp, it did work in windows.

 

I have a game controller from about 2000 that has a pc gameport connector and a passive usb adapter. Even though it is pc gameport it is not standard pc gameport compatible. It won't work on any computer through the gameport without software, dos was not supported. Unlike a standard gameport it sends data for its 12 buttons serially. However, it is a standard hid usb game controller and works in windows/linux/mac without software using it's own usb adapter. A generic gameport usb adapter doesn't work.

 

That's not what you have. Yours should be standard pc gameport compatible, communicating in parallel. That's because it does work with a generic usb adapter. Electronically maybe there is something different but not different enough for a standard pc gameport.

 

With dosbox, any windows controller works.

Edited August 14, 2018 by mr_me

[Swami]

When you say dos mode I understand that to mean standard pc gameport, i.e. four button, four axis communicating in parallel as described in that link. It was supported by microsoft through at least windows xp, it did work in windows.

 

I have a game controller from about 2000 that has a pc gameport connector and a passive usb adapter. Even though it is pc gameport it is not standard pc gameport compatible. It won't work on any computer through the gameport without software, dos was not supported. Unlike a standard gameport it sends data for its 12 buttons serially. However, it is a standard hid usb game controller and works in windows/linux/mac without software using it's own usb adapter. A generic gameport usb adapter doesn't work.

 

That's not what you have. Yours should be standard pc gameport compatible, communicating in parallel. That's because it does work with a generic usb adapter. Electronically maybe there is something different but not different enough for a standard pc gameport.

 

With dosbox, any windows controller works.

In case you're curious, I've attached the instruction manual for the wheel. According to the instructions, you use the gameport whether you have the wheel in Windows 95 mode or DOS mode. I found some info about people complaining that it only supported a limited number of games, but I don't know if that was Windows or DOS.

 

I found this from an old support site. Don't know why the DOS mode would require drivers as many gameport devices do not. Seems like there is something odd about the controller's dos mode. Also, from the site, it looks like the buttons may be interfaced with a memory chip, which may be why the wheel and pedals are universal, but the buttons are not. I found a wiki that says buttons 1 and 2 and "3/4" use separate grounds, but generally, I found this isn't true, although there is a slight possibility having the ground pins 4 and 5 joined on the gameport to 5200 adapter may be confusing the wheel, but I doubt it.

 

https://www.act-labs.com/race2_support.htm

You must use the "2 axis, 4 button joystick" DOS joystick driver in "Game Controllers" and set the switch on the RS to "DOS mode" (see C above). You will only have access to 4 buttons on the wheel-the shifter paddles and the middle buttons on the spokes with the "nibs" on them. The POV hat will be non-functional as well.

1. Remove the ACT LABS RS driver from the "Game Controllers" section of control panel.

2. Set the RS mode switch to DOS. (Up for the silver toggle switch version and down for the black button.)

3. Add the "2 axis, 4 button joystick".

4. Click on "Properties" to calibrate and test.

5. To use the wheel in Windows mode again, you must remove the DOS joystick driver and then add back ACT LABS RS--you must also set the switch on the wheel back to Windows mode.

rs_manual.pdf

[mr_me]

The instructions confirms what you see when you use a usb adapter, no driver is required in dos mode. Now if you want more buttons in dos, you'd have to have a dos driver and also put the controller in windows mode. It's possible a dos game directly supports the controller in windows mode. In dos mode it could be used with any game that supports a standard joystick. Or if you have the controller in windows mode on windows xp with an xp driver a dos game could use more buttons through dosbox.

 

According to the pc gameport pinout I linked, button 1 uses ground on pin 4. Button 2 uses ground on pin 5. Buttons 3 and 4 uses ground on pin 12.

Edited August 14, 2018 by mr_me

[Swami]

The instructions confirms what you see when you use a usb adapter, no driver is required in dos mode. Now if you want more buttons in dos, you'd have to have a dos driver and also put the controller in windows mode. It's possible a dos game directly supports the controller in windows mode. In dos mode it could be used with any game that supports a standard joystick. Or if you have the controller in windows mode on windows xp with an xp driver a dos game could use more buttons through dosbox.

 

According to the pc gameport pinout I linked, button 1 uses ground on pin 4. Button 2 uses ground on pin 5. Buttons 3 and 4 uses ground on pin 12.

What is this part referring to if no driver is needed to use the controller set to DOS mode?

"You must use the "2 axis, 4 button joystick" DOS joystick driver in "Game Controllers" and set the switch on the [Act Labs] RS [Wheel] to "DOS mode" (see C above)."

[mr_me]

It's talking about the control panel so they must mean running dos games under windows 95/98. Windows 95/98 does support running dos programs but I would've just booted directly to dos.

[Swami]

It's talking about the control panel so they must mean running dos games under windows 95/98. Windows 95/98 does support running dos programs but I would've just booted directly to dos.

I've read some controllers will work in Windows based dos but not true DOS. If, so that could explain it. The wheel would need a driver even in DOS mode. The manual is not very clear about whether you can use the controller when booting to DOS. I am thinking from the description of switching the controller to DOS mode, they expect you to stay in Windows. That would be kind of goofy, but I guess some controllers were made that way for some reason.

 

If the wheel requires separate ground pins for buttons 1 and 2, then I'm SOL, since the 5200 only has one ground pin.

 

Basically, Im thinking maybe this wheel isnt putting out true dos through the buttons but some kind of signal early windows used with the game port like a digital data stream that would be conveyed to dos gamepad-like control in windows dos console. What would you do about that. The advice on the internet was get an older controller. Of course, It never occurred to me that this controllers dos switch might be virtual, especially when it isnt for the wheel and pedals.

[mr_me]

The instructions say it works under dos. Dos was still common in 1998. The fact it works with your usb adapter is more evidence to support that. My controller for example is a pc gameport controller that does not work under dos. I'm not sure about dos under windows 1998. It will work in dosbox under windows xp/7/10.

[Swami]

The instructions say it works under dos. Dos was still common in 1998. The fact it works with your usb adapter is more evidence to support that. My controller for example is a pc gameport controller that does not work under dos. I'm not sure about dos under windows 1998. It will work in dosbox under windows xp/7/10.

In any case, dont know why all the game port functions would operate in the gamepad setup application in win10 but not work on the 5200. Im sure it would probably work in windows dos box because it could use the windows driver, or I suppose maybe the driver is built into the adapter.

[Swami]

The instructions say it works under dos. Dos was still common in 1998. The fact it works with your usb adapter is more evidence to support that. My controller for example is a pc gameport controller that does not work under dos. I'm not sure about dos under windows 1998. It will work in dosbox under windows xp/7/10.

So, im not sure if you are saying it should work on the 5200 or you suggesting I use it with dosbox?

[mr_me]

Well, you seem to have concerns if your controller works as a standard pc gamecard controller e.g. dos. In my opinion, it does. I'm not good with electronics, pull-up resistors, etc. So I can't help you interfacing it with a 5200. I thought the buttons would be the easy part and the wheel/pedals the problem. I do hope you get it working.

[Swami]

Well, you seem to have concerns if your controller works as a standard pc gamecard controller e.g. dos. In my opinion, it does. I'm not good with electronics, pull-up resistors, etc. So I can't help you interfacing it with a 5200. I thought the buttons would be the easy part and the wheel/pedals the problem. I do hope you get it working.

Okay. Their unqualified instruction to use a driver makes me wonder if it would work on a 286 running only ms-dos, but they may have just left it out.

 

All the weird resistances and voltages for the buttons make me think it is intractable. However, its more curious than disappointing.

 

Thank you for your assistance.

[Swami]

I'm not good with electronics, pull-up resistors, etc. So I can't help you interfacing it with a 5200.

Okay. The central question I am having is really unrelated to the 5200. The question is whether the button presses of older dos only controllers communicate through the gameport the same way that switchable windows95/ dos controllers do when in the controller is in dos mode or is it somehow different. This controller was designed to interface with both windows games and dos games through the gameport as I believe USB ports were not common in 1995-1996.

[Swami]

Well, you seem to have concerns if your controller works as a standard pc gamecard controller e.g. dos. In my opinion, it does. I'm not good with electronics, pull-up resistors, etc. So I can't help you interfacing it with a 5200. I thought the buttons would be the easy part and the wheel/pedals the problem. I do hope you get it working.

 

I guess I should add: different from DOS console in Windows 95, since, from the manual, they don't mention booting into true DOS at startup. I guess you are saying it acts like it should work if I boot the computer directly into DOS. If that is so, then its behavior is very puzzling, but may just be a weird setup that still works in true DOS. I will have to try it on an old DOS computer if I get a chance.

[mr_me]

You might be right that this switchable controller is doing something different internally. But it still has to deal with the same inputs and outputs with a standard pc gameport. It might be more important to have all the inputs wired up in this case.

 

Looking at the pinouts I would wire all three ground pins on the gameport controller to the single 5200 ground pin.

Edited August 15, 2018 by mr_me

[mr_me]

How do you have the pins wired up in your gameport to A5200 adapter. Maybe it's possible to test and see how the pins are connected in the gameport to usb adapter for comparison.

 

It's possible most standard gameport controllers uses fewer pins than this controller.

Edited August 16, 2018 by mr_me