Altirra 3.10 released

[Alfred]

Could be Im using the one from 2.3, Ill have to check but I didnt think 3.2D had a replacement.

[phaeron]

Could be Im using the one from 2.3, Ill have to check but I didnt think 3.2D had a replacement.

 

Think I may have found what's causing this -- remove all PBI devices. This includes BlackBox and PBI-based disk acceleration (Acceleration > SIO acceleration mode). SpartaDOS 2.3b D [CRC32 0C818573] has broken PBI support which will cause it to fail with Error 130 on disk accesses if a PBI device is present, because it has a corrupted SIO PBI routine and jumps into the math pack instead.

[Alfred]

 

Think I may have found what's causing this -- remove all PBI devices. This includes BlackBox and PBI-based disk acceleration (Acceleration > SIO acceleration mode). SpartaDOS 2.3b D [CRC32 0C818573] has broken PBI support which will cause it to fail with Error 130 on disk accesses if a PBI device is present, because it has a corrupted SIO PBI routine and jumps into the math pack instead.

 

Well actually I'm using Sparta 3.2Z which is a variant released by Bob Puff. It's 3.2D with the UltraSpeed SIO code NOP'd out in order for it to work with the Black Box. I don't recall now why, except that normal 3.2D won't boot with the Black Box, it just locks up. So I suppose the 2.3 Menu program is invoking some custom i/o handler which is broken and leads to the error 130. As I recall it works on the real hardware, or else I wouldn't have kept using it, but it's been a long time. I'm not using PBI acceleration, just have SIOV checked off, after that business with the MIO compatibility switch. The override is also not checked.

 

It's no big deal, I rarely use the program, it just seemed like an odd thing to happen.

[phaeron]

 

Well actually I'm using Sparta 3.2Z which is a variant released by Bob Puff. It's 3.2D with the UltraSpeed SIO code NOP'd out in order for it to work with the Black Box. I don't recall now why, except that normal 3.2D won't boot with the Black Box, it just locks up. So I suppose the 2.3 Menu program is invoking some custom i/o handler which is broken and leads to the error 130. As I recall it works on the real hardware, or else I wouldn't have kept using it, but it's been a long time. I'm not using PBI acceleration, just have SIOV checked off, after that business with the MIO compatibility switch. The override is also not checked.

 

It's no big deal, I rarely use the program, it just seemed like an odd thing to happen.

 

Thanks for wasting my time again. I am not going to look at any more issues from you if you are not going to mention that you are using such a franken-configuration with so many devices and patched OSes and haven't tried to reproduce with a more standard configuration.

[Alfred]

Eh ? My Franken-configuration as you call it, is the mirror image of my actual hardware. Actually, I guess thats not true, because my 800xl has 256k in a Rambo config, a T-816 with 256k of extended ram and multiplexer client circuit wired on top of the pia. Said config I cannot quite match in Altirra because it doesnt do some of that. That 800XL runs 3.2Z and the 2.3 menu program just fine. ISTR you were positive the issue with the mio compatibility switch was due to my bs config. I forgot about the problem and then noticed that two months later you fixed the bug.

 

Yes, I run a non-standard system, but the system tries hard to be normal. Chuck put a lot of effort into making sure his T-816 OS would run as much software as he could. So when I get an error 130 which says DOS is missing, after just loading the code from DOS, my first thought is going to be that theres an interception issue, because it doesnt happen on real hardware. It hardly seem fair for you to put in all these complex devices and drives, and the say, yes, but they only work if you configure a stock system..

 

Its your software, so thats fine. From now on Ill just regard Altirra as a nice pc xformer, and assume that all the extra stuff doesnt actually work unlike the real hardware devices which do.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Alfred

[FULS]

Its your software, so thats fine. From now on Ill just regard Altirra as a nice pc xformer, and assume that all the extra stuff doesnt actually work unlike the real hardware devices which do.

Wow, You just made my ignore list.

[+DrVenkman]

Its your software, so thats fine. From now on Ill just regard Altirra as a nice pc xformer, and assume that all the extra stuff doesnt actually work unlike the real hardware devices which do.

 

You know, it's that kind of shitty, entitled attitude among users of (free!!!) software that makes developers say fuck it and just stop bothering.

[Alfred]

Entitled? Holy cow. The guy adds a feature, and when I point out it doesnt work like the real device does, and then he blames me because Im not running Dos 2.0, you think Im the prick ? Just wow.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Alfred

[flashjazzcat]

Wow. Your Six Forks assembler thread deserves the amount of interest it generated.

[Alfred]

As it turns out, MENU.COM fails because it tries to do an XIO 64 against device code $19. So the file is obviously corrupt.

 

Yeah, I gathered that FJC, but I already knew there was pretty much nobody left coding on the Atari, you guys can't live without your cross-assemblers. Anyway, thanks, yours is the last push I needed: I won't visit Atari Age again. I'll try not to let the door hit me in the a$$ on the way out.

[_The Doctor__]

wow look at the pile on... and another old time, pioneer of the Atari will probably leave because of it. This is probably why folks who made pbi devices, drive upgrades etc etc from years back, don't wish to interview or come to the forums... after all reviving the old projects or helping with the stuff from days gone by.. well that's too much. So he didn't kiss the ring... so he might have worded something poorly or not. Maybe something is frustrating or a little off. It's possible whatever configuration of hardware or other such stuff will be included in the future... who knows. Each time a real life mod or hardware gets added it only improves the product, especially if it uncovers something. I bet it's a trying experience all around. I try to support both Avery and Alfred. I felt kind of ashamed reading all of this as well as the pile on. Come on guys we're better than this.

Edited March 10, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[+Stephen]

No doc - I don't care how long someone has been around. A shitty attitude is just that, and if someone was in my house and spoke to me that way they would leave with a fat lip or bloody nose. Being civil isn't hard to do, and being behind a keyboard doesn't excuse someone from acting like a twat.

[_The Doctor__]

there's a back story. but It is what it is...

[TheNameOfTheGame]

Uh, what am I reading here? So he had a question and was rebuffed then everything fell apart. I don't know Alfred, but why dump on the guy? I didn't see his attitude as particularly "shitty". Agreed, the one post he made was pissy, but so what? Are we becoming so milksop we can't tolerate someone frustrated with a little bad attitude?

 

Yes, defense force and piling one chased him away and that's not a good thing. And I say that with great respect for Jon and Phaeron! Free speech doesn't mean we always agree with what is said, but the person is still a human being.

[phaeron]

Eh ? My Franken-configuration as you call it, is the mirror image of my actual hardware. Actually, I guess thats not true, because my 800xl has 256k in a Rambo config, a T-816 with 256k of extended ram and multiplexer client circuit wired on top of the pia. Said config I cannot quite match in Altirra because it doesnt do some of that.

 

Then it isn't a mirror image. You can't complain that it should work as it does on your real hardware when you admit that you can't match the configuration, and by not mentioning these details you make it impossible for anyone else to replicate it to help. No one would ever guess this kind of complex configuration and there are many programs that will not work on it just based on the 65C816 alone. This time, in addition to that, you are running the SpartaDOS 2.3 menu on a patched version of SpartaDOS 3.2D which as far as I can tell is not readily available.

 

That 800XL runs 3.2Z and the 2.3 menu program just fine. ISTR you were positive the issue with the mio compatibility switch was due to my bs config. I forgot about the problem and then noticed that two months later you fixed the bug.

 

I suggest you go back and re-read the post history again. What happened was that you reported contradictory information with each successive post and neglected to mention that you had so many unusual devices and modifications involved, upon which I asked you to reduce the configuration closer to stock to make it easier to diagnose, not because it was the cause of the problem. You kept mentioning the MIO compatibility switch and its effects, but it turned out to be ignored by the firmware in your specific hardware configuration.

 

Yes, there was a bug in the emulator. It was fixed because I took your bug report seriously and spent days guessing the details. I'm not willing to spend more time guessing because you refuse to take simple diagnostic steps to rule out complications from devices that are unnecessary to run the problematic scenario.

 

Yes, I run a non-standard system, but the system tries hard to be normal. Chuck put a lot of effort into making sure his T-816 OS would run as much software as he could. So when I get an error 130 which says DOS is missing, after just loading the code from DOS, my first thought is going to be that theres an interception issue, because it doesnt happen on real hardware.

"As much software as he could" = not 100%. Which means it is an unnecessary variable that has to be taken into account when diagnosing.

 

CIO error 130 does not mean DOS is missing. It means that the specified device in the filename could not be found, which does not have to be D:. In the case of plain SpartaDOS 2.3, this happens because the broken PBI code trashes the CIO request when a PBI device is present.

 

It hardly seem fair for you to put in all these complex devices and drives, and the say, yes, but they only work if you configure a stock system..

 

At no time have I ever said this, nor have I doubted that it works on your hardware. What isn't fair is for you to expect repeating the phrase "it works on real hardware" to contribute to a discussion instead of actual diagnostic work to identify configuration differences and causes, when you have no evidence of what the actual problem is, and you admit that your real hardware configuration doesn't completely match the emulator anyway.

[Docwiz]

Maybe in the future we can port the ARM version to Hololens. I want my Atari moved to Mixed Reality. A little old and a little new.

 

I guess I am still with Atari because my parents bought one for me as my first computer when they saw I was going to a computer club after school, something drove me to this.

How awesome that I can still run my Atari 8-bit software almost 35-40 years later on my Windows machine. Amazing times.

 

Thank you Phaeron for building a great emulator!!! Cheers

 

Oh and I didn't know you were in the Bay area. I was running my Carina ][ BBS and networking with a BBS in the Bay area in 1989 when the Earthquake happened.

My message base transfer was interrupted and the phone connection dropped and my dad said that there was an earthquake as he was watching the world series on TV at the time.

I lived in St. Louis, Missouri at the time. Now I live 2 1/2 hours north from you in Mendocino County (Ukiah, CA).

 

ahhh the good old days.... Still want to move this stuff to the new technology with VR/AR and still enjoy it like we are living in the 1980's. I might be 50 years old now instead of being a kid, but I will always love my Atari!

[flashjazzcat]

Yes, defense force and piling one chased him away and that's not a good thing. And I say that with great respect for Jon and Phaeron! Free speech doesn't mean we always agree with what is said, but the person is still a human being.

Yeah, so? We spoke our minds as well. My expressing my opinion doesn't prevent anyone else from expressing theirs. Alfred already expressed his and now claims to have gathered up his toys and left because of the response it provoked. I don't understand why the obnoxious and cranky must be excused.

[Mclaneinc]

I look at it from Phaerons POV, as said the software is free and wonderfully crafted with a stunning response time to bug reports but if you feed Avery half info and waste his time he has every right to respond and prove the case, he should have to but he did and still got a rather pissy answer, I mean to call it a Nice PC Xformer is really below the belt and as FJC he seemed to turf the toys out of the pram which was the silly thing to do. I hate seeing free software devs bashed for NO reason, Avery fixed a bug that was there but he had to retrace the steps by guess work rather than by the info provided which is silly in this day and age.

 

I wish Alfred had just followed along and addressed the stuff more correctly, he seemed a nice bloke from the little I interacted with him but if you complain about stuff and then provide half info to a busy programmer doing this for free then you are going to get told.

 

We all try and keep bug reports as direct and info filled as needed, well my report over the 32- in -1 was more messy than I'd have liked but it was a weird issue but in general all of us do a good report which is the whole point, make Avery's time less wasted, it works for him AND us..

 

Maybe Alfred will change his mind and come back, I hope so as the community needs all its members.....Just give a more correct info Alfred

Edited March 10, 2019 by Mclaneinc

[_The Doctor__]

if something goes wrong and you don't know why or how since you didn't code/make the thing that doesn't appear to work, keep your mouth shut and let it continue to be that way. If you don't know how to describe it perfectly, well... and you better be careful because someone in the high school auditorium might here you say something that could offend the prom king/cool guy who gave us something one day... you can then expect to be circled by his pals and picked apart. If you say something because of that and it's flippant that just means they can use that against you as well because you re-acted poorly... after all they want you to go...

 

Of course if you knew everything you could just fix it yourself.... but then you better get permission because it's not yours to fix and you might step on toes and you see where that goes....

 

No ones perfect, even if it were let's say a kit car that doesn't run correctly and the driver says it does this sort of thing that doesn't work right and it happens when driving this way, One should expect the creator of the kit to get mad at the driver because he didn't explain it perfectly... all the guys at various shops who hear of this should then go off on the driver and stir up the kit car enthusiasts to start in on the driver as well.... that doesn't seem right..

 

In the past I've had people in users groups bring me a piece of hardware and say it doesn't do this or that or doesn't work correctly. I have never went off on them because they said something, nor did the group members who overheard something get all involved either. Though sometimes they might ask for more info as they are curious and want to be helpful. Just because the person bringing the broken thing to me is in poor spirits (his thing doesn't work) ... and comes off as a Un-joyful doesn't mean I should berate him because his tone was off and he doesn't know what's broken... he might not even know what's inside the thing. I wouldn't expect the whole group to come down on him because came off poorly or didn't know step by step what I needed to fix up whatever it is. Let's say he had a problem earlier on and something else didn't work with something I hacked or created and he knows it didn't work for him.... I treat him like crap and blame him, his set up, or the description he gave rather than what I created... then later I find he was correct and I fix it for everyone else with my mod/hack. Should I then harbor ill will towards him and go off on him when he brings something else to me? Should I expect the users group to also do the same and get involved to voice and protect me because I made the cool widget in the first place, I am so elevated to that level and the lowly user/(kit car driver) spoke as an insolent surf. He may well have spoke ill of my widget, since I gave my widget to the townspeople... they love me and will stone that insolent surf for me.

 

I also wouldn't expect him to want to return to the meetings or shop anything if he/she experienced this sort of thing.

The group is diminished, there is one less member... rinse repeat... then the folks lament that membership is down. There isn't the interest that used to be etc.

 

That person may well have had more to offer than you knew. But maybe there isn't room in the ball field for another person on the team. Hope the slightly more empty bleachers on the home side doesn't continue to get worse. The cheerleaders can't inspire the crowd that isn't there because they chased them off or whatever.

 

Free speech is one thing, a bunch of folks jumping in because they overheard some part of something is quite another. If everyone is shouting, nobody gets heard and nothing gets fixed. But hey lets put down his hardware, lets put down his threads, next we can pick on his pets, maybe some hate mail too.

 

Don't let this sort of thing make you leave... just do what you do... there should be more than enough room for many interests here. You helped get at least one thing solved earlier and myself and a few others thank you for that. The whole idea that your noticing it and didn't have the readily super easy quick way of presenting it to get it sorted instantly argument should not dissuade you from doing the same in the future.

Edited March 10, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[+DrVenkman]

Free speech is one thing, a bunch of folks jumping in because they overheard some part of something is quite another. If everyone is shouting, nobody gets heard and nothing gets fixed.

 

Speak for yourself. I follow Avery’s threads fairly closely. As he said, this isn’t the first time Alfred posted some claim that something didn’t work as he expected, but failed to provide details. I typically ignore stupid shit people post most of the time, but the part of his post I quoted - AND THAT SPECIFIC PART - was what I was responding to: acting like a spoiled, entitled complainer and denigrating Avery’s literal years of unpaid work done out his love of the platform and the hobby, and done for the good of the community.

 

If you don’t recognize that, and just see it as “piling on,” I respectfully suggest you go back a few pages and parse more carefully. Or put me on Ignore if you must, because when I see people crapping on the volunteers that provide the backbone of the community - especially someone who works as hard at it as Avery, expecting nothing in return, I *WILL* call it out.

[Mclaneinc]

Sorry The_Doctor, I think you are off kilter on that one.

 

I'm not rallying around the cool guy to be in a clique, I'm utterly against cliques and made that clear a few times in here and other places, I have no time for yes men, nodders or whatever else you call them BUT, I do support our authors on here and that includes Avery. If you follow Avery's threads he comes across as the least ass hole like person on here, he's concise, shows no favour and keeps his comments to the subject at hand, I think that makes him a very easy guy to get on with as if you feed him facts he returns the favour. Alfred on the other hand kept sending incorrect info and as he also codes and has deep interest in the Atari and seemed very knowledgeable about it, it seemed strange to send so much vague stuff in a bug report and kept doing it...

 

This seems to be the real point here.

 

I know you think some jumped on him like a ton of rocks and yes there have been times when feelings get overly expressed like the sloopy thread which wasn't our proudest moment on here bit it happens.

 

None of us are perfect but in this case it seemed that Alfred just kept half sending info which isn't useful and when brought up on it by the the only person who had the right to he went into smart arse mode which no one needs. Its clear he knew the atari, knew what he was being asked but kept it vague....Not a mistake in my book..

 

We pretty much all know the score across emulation when it comes to testing, before calling foul make sure it works on the same settings as a real unmodded (simple memory upgrades are ok) machine, that's always the first port of call, make sure your test items such as roms are clean and try to use known good images and not hacks. This is the same for emulators across the board., then when you report a bug give all the needed info and any special situations..

 

This isn't clique like, its common sense..

[_The Doctor__]

All are volunteers and are valuable. It's all good. I am just glad some of the issues with the black box, rtime8 are solved. The idea that someone is tearing down years of work is laughable and a straw man. But it is what it is. It does seem every time pretty please this might be a problem isn't in timid mouse format everyone goes apehs*t these days.

 

Looks like the pack will chase me down now, they must sense blood on the trail. It's unfortunate the tone taken all around both in the threads and sometimes pm's.

 

Hopefully something constructive comes out of all of it...

 

@ mclaneinc, your right it wasn't our proudest moment, and I've done such thing myself, not proud of myself at that.

 

Being a black box user, and icd spartados, and rtime8 user... am interested in how sparta 3.3 works out with the rtime, black box, and other processor options in altira.

emulating a bbs in altira for testing is something I was considering working towards multinode multiuser like puffs bbs did. Both of the upgrades used processor and mux were standard fare BITD for tech geeks and board junkies...

Edited March 10, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[Mclaneinc]

I have never really played around with all the PBI stuff and I never really used SpartaDos much back then so all the newer innovations were nothing I ever played with, I'm a gamer and proud and a hacker of low skill

 

Some of the bits I seem to remember from the time but they simply were not my cup of tea...We all can't be geniuses and I'm keeping that end of the bar held high

 

As Clint Eastwood says in one of the Dirty Harry films, "a mans gotsta know his limitations"...I am that man

[256 colors]

I'm just glad we have Altirra and it's still active

I remember Atari800WinPlus had bloody awful sound and hard to configure (no disrespect to the creator)

[+MrFish]

I'm just glad we have Altirra and it's still active

I remember Atari800WinPlus had bloody awful sound and hard to configure (no disrespect to the creator)

 

What was so difficult to configure in Atari800WinPLus? "Awful sound"? Can you please elaborate on that too?

Edited March 10, 2019 by MrFish