VCS/2600 Game Rarity by Number of Known Copies

[R.Cade]

 

There may be some confusion here. Zellers was just a retailer; they never manufactured anything. I still have a Zellers store-brand sweater in my closet, for example.

 

Zellers was one part of the Hudson Bay group -- current stores include The Bay and Home Outfitters. As far as I am aware, they have never had a presence outside of Canada.

 

The original source (the developer and/or manufacturer) where Zellers obtained these games is unknown.

I had something to add here, but when I researched it I was incorrect. I knew Zellers was owned by a USA company, but apparently they sold it to HBC in 1976, well before Atari would have existed selling cartridges.

Edited January 25, 2019 by R.Cade

[jhd]

Right, but they say zellers on the boxes, so it's a stretch to think other stores sold them with the zellers branding? But who knows.....

 

I routinely purchase generic "store brand" peanut butter from various different grocery stores. The very same product is sold by several different stores; the only difference is the printed label on the jar. The product is manufactured by some third-party, and sold to the various retailers. It is not produced specifically for just one retailer.

 

Similarly, it seems reasonable to assume that the cartridges sold by Zellers (and packaged for that store) were also sold by other retailers (albeit in different packaging).

[stupus]

Maybe....But No other version of these titles has ever been found in any other packaging for the North American market. Only the red boxes with the zellers name.

[stupus]

Not that I am arguing that I think zellers made these in any capacity.

I am sure they are just Taiwan bootlegs that zellers struck a deal to sell ntsc conversions of with their name added to the boxes.

It's just that besides the k tel spider maze those 3 unique games have no other known existence in North america.

So if anyone besides zellers sold them here they haven't been found. And it seems unlikely other retailers would sell them with the zellers name on them.

Edited January 25, 2019 by stupus

[stupus]

So Billy as the first add on i would say it should be the Canadian games that complete a north American ntsc set.

This is what I purpose:

 

405. Extra Terrestrials by Skill Screen Games in Canada (*If this should even stay.)

406. Challenge by Zellers in Canada

407. Time Warp by Zellers in Canada

408. Inca Gold by Zellers/Spider Maze by K-Tel both in Canada

409. Sea Monster by Bit Corp in Canada

 

Then I would list the South American Exclusives. Then the Pal Exclusives. Need to decide how to overlap the ones that are both exclusive to south America and Pal land......probably list those first after the South American Exclusives. We need to add stuff like mega boy cart too in there.

[stupus]

Then I would go with the South American exclusives:

 

410. MegaBoy by Dynacom in Brazil

411. Mazy Match by Pet Boat in Mexico (Datatech)

412. Donald Duck's "Speedboat" by JVP and Various Companies in Brazil (Atari)

414. Stone Age by CCE in Brazil (TechnoVision)

415. Pizza Chef by CCE in Brazil (Vidco/Zimag)

 

I think that's all the South American Exclusives that don't have any USA/North American version or pal counterpart.

[Supergun]

I agree that adding those sections at the end of the list is necessary not only for organizational reasons, but also for the sake of completeness. But one of the most difficult tasks that remains for us, if its even possible to do, will be to determine which South American cartridges were actually authorized & which were pirates. While having a mask rom present is usually a strong indication of a cartridge being official, it is not always conclusive, nor is it the only indication to go by. Even then, verification wont be an easy task.

 

Reason being that I find that area of the atarimania website as being complete chaos. Theres just too many different companies & variations of game names and cartridge labels, etc. How can anyone be certain which were originals & which were bootlegs and more importantly which rom files came from which physical cartridges? I wouldnt be able to rely 100% on it.

 

And the thing is, not to sound insensitive, but it almost doesnt really matter anyhow. Reason being we have a couple of tech wizards around here who can & already have converted the exclusive PAL roms to NTSC. And since in order for us to play them we have to hack them anyhow, they wouldnt really be original anyhow.

[stupus]

I guess the real decision is do we include bootlegs in the South American section anyway if they are the only existing ntsc versions?

 

I think starting the pal section with the ones that crossover is best.

Listing the pal originals and then noting a bootleg ntsc version exists for that title.

 

Interestingly every pal game I own plays fine on the 6 switch woody I use most hooked to my wood console zenith tv from the 80s. Colors palette is of course changed but otherwise they work perfectly.

[stupus]

I actually spent about 3 years of free time cross referencing all of atarimania, atariguide and atariage and any other info i could find. I made about 50 pages of notes and created the first no-intro format rom set for use with emulators and hyperspin. I released it at thanksgiving 2012. Its the set they still use too. So i spent a crazy amount of time going over all these. And your right its an insanity of roms and companies

Edited January 26, 2019 by stupus

[Supergun]

I guess the real decision is do we include bootlegs in the South American section anyway if they are the only existing ntsc versions?

 

I think starting the pal section with the ones that crossover is best. Listing the pal originals and then noting a bootleg ntsc version exists for that title.

 

 

Before we create a major divide amongst the different classes of PAL games, as well as among their NTSC ancestors and/or descendents, let me point out that many of our own USA/NTSC released games are just as suspicious & came to us from dubious sources.

 

Pandas Stunt Man & Dice Puzzle have Sancho credited on screen. They didnt bother to remove it. Froggos Sea Hunt, Cruise Missile, & Sea Hawk do the same thing.

 

Even major company releases, like Ataris DK Jr. & Activisions Demon Attack still say Coleco & Imagic on screen.

 

Now mind you, we know our Atari history here. We lived it. So we know very well that Coleco & Imagic made those games first. But companies like Bit Corp and exactly what they did are complete mysteries. And CCE & Sancho & Home Vision & Zimag etc. I mean, just who the hell programned which games & who paid them and who legally owned them?

 

So sub-organizing the international NTSC roms (as officials versus pirates) among the already dubious PAL roms, seems unlikely to me. How can any of them be confirmed one way or another? Especially when we have the ability ourselves to convert a PAL rom to an NTSC; certainly, so did the programmers back then.

[stupus]

This is partly why in my personal lists I keep the pal original releases in their own group.

I technically don't even count those pal originals that got ntsc rereleases as real official ntsc games. Like the panda, froggo stuff etc.

But I do think they should stay on a ntsc USA list.

 

I don't think it will be a terrible problem with the South American games that also have

pal versions. There are only 14 and I don't think any but the cce ones from bit corp could ever be considered official releases. I think the bootlegs should just be noted next to the pal originals.

 

As for the pal originals, most are pretty certain who made them....the atari, Salu, video gems, technovision, but corp, imagic, sancho....all those I think it's pretty matter of fact.

The only ones that get a bit funny are dimax and the homevision and suntek stuff.

I think it's been pretty much decided that homevision probably made all of these except for the Dumas stuff due to always finding homevision logo data in the roms.

The ones we have to list by suntek are more just because the homevision titles just have not been found. I think as time goes these will be the rare titles left that might show up here and there.

I also had a very reliable source tell me yesterday that in fact iq 180 by homevision has been found too.

I would guess a few more of these if not even all could exist in tiny numbers out there. If not then I think there must be a weird relationship between homevision and suntek and they somehow were able to re-release all their games.

[Supergun]

So Billy as the first add on i would say it should be the Canadian games that complete a north American ntsc set.

This is what I purpose:

 

405. Extra Terrestrials by Skill Screen Games in Canada (*If this should even stay.)

406. Challenge by Zellers in Canada

407. Time Warp by Zellers in Canada

408. Inca Gold by Zellers/Spider Maze by K-Tel both in Canada

409. Sea Monster by Bit Corp in Canada

 

Then I would list the South American Exclusives. Then the Pal Exclusives. Need to decide how to overlap the ones that are both exclusive to south America and Pal land......probably list those first after the South American Exclusives. We need to add stuff like mega boy cart too in there.

We're on the same page.

I have the main USA/NTSC list ending at 404.

Then, I have TWO expansions.

(one for NON-USA/NTSC games and one for PAL games)

 

I just don't have them separated and organized yet.

Mainly because I keep finding mistakes.

Here's my current rough draft:

 

------------------------

EXPANSION NUMBER ONE: 11

------------------------

-- NTSC compatible games (will work on a stock console)

-- unique to the other games listed (not repeats or rom hacks)

-- released outside the United States (not intended for the USA)

 

405. (CAN) Challenge by Zellers / (a Fun Vision game)

406. (CAN) Time Warp by Zellers / (a Fun Vision game)

407. (CAN) Inca Gold by Zellers / (a Fun Vision game) / Spider Maze by K-TEL

408. (BRA) Spectracube by Sun Tek / Immies & Aggies (a Zimag game)

409. (BRA) Pizza Chef by CCE / (a Zimag game)

410. (BRA) Criminal Pursuit by Sun Tek / A Mysterious Thief by Zimag

411. (BRA) Mr. Postman by CCE / (a Bit Corp game)

412. (BRA) Bobby is Going Home by CCE (a Bit Corp game)

413. (CAN) Sea Monster by Puzzy (a Bit Corp game)

(*). (CAN) Space Tunnel by Puzzy (REPEAT) Cosmic Corridor

414. (BRA) Mission 3000 A.D. by CCE / (a Bit Corp game)

415. (BRA) Squirrel by CCE / (a Bit Corp game)

(*). (BRA) Dancing Plate by CCE (REPEAT) Dishaster

(*). (BRA) Open Sesame by CCE (REPEAT) I want my Mommy

(*). (BRA) Space Tunnel by CCE (REPEAT) Cosmic Corridor

(*). (BRA) Phantom Tank by CCE (REPEAT) Tanks but no Tanks

 

 

------------------------

EXPANSION NUMBER TWO: 38

------------------------

-- PAL compatible games (will NOT work on a stock console)

-- unique to the other games listed (not repeats or rom hacks)

-- released outside the United States (not intended for the USA)

-- have been found in NTSC format or can be converted to NTSC format

 

416. Fatal Run by Atari

417. Klax by Atari

418. Ghostbusters II by Salu (an Activision game)

419. My Golf by Salu (an HES game)

420. Acid Drop by Salu

421. Pick & Pile by Salu

422. Wing War by Imagic

423. Forest by Sancho

424. Dragon Defender by Suntek (Dragon Defender by Home Vision)

 

425. Farmyard Fun by Suntek (Play Farm by Home Vision)

 

426. Firebug by Suntek (Spinning Fireball by Zimag) (*ntsc)

427. IQ Memory Teaser by Sun Tek (IQ 180 by Home Vision)

 

428. Mole Hunter by Suntek (Topy by Home Vision) (*ntsc)

 

429. Motocross by Suntek (a Home Vision game) (*ntsc)

430. Ski Run by Suntek (a Home Vision game)

431. Sky Diver by Suntek (Parachute by Home Vision)

432. Treasure Island by Suntek (Treasure Discovery by Home Vision)

433. UFO Patrol by Suntek (X'Mission by Home Vision)

434. Walker by Suntek (Robin by Home Vision)

 

435. Zoo Fun by Suntek (an ITT Family game) (a Panda Chase rom rebuild)

 

436. Frisco by Home Vision (RJPG)

437. Lilly Adventure by Home Vision (*ntsc)

438. Panda Chase by Home Vision

439. Racing Car by Home Vision (a Fun Vision game) (RJPG)

440. Ski Hunt by Home Vision (a Fun Vision game) (*ntsc) (RJPG)

441. Astrowar by Dimax/Sinmax

442. Go Go Home by Dimax/Sinmax (*ntsc)

443. The End of the World by Dimax/Sinmax (*ntsc)

444. Nuts by Techno Vision

445. Pharaoh's Curse by Techno Vision

446. Save Our Ship by Techno Vision (*ntsc)

447. Stone Age by CCE (a Techno Vision game)

448. Missile Control by Video Gems

449. Mission Survive by Video Gems

450. Steeplechase by Video Gems

451. Surfer's Paradise But Danger Below! by Video Gems

452. Treasure Below by Video Gems

453. Seal to Whales by Datatech (undumped)

454. Unknown by Datatech (MEXICO) (*ntsc) (Mazy Match by Pet Boat)

455. Megaboy by Dynacom (BRAZIL) (*ntsc)

 

 

EDIT: And my final position on Extra Terrestrials.

 

(*) Extra Terrestrials (unreleased proto / production sample)

-- (available to purchase if some guy happened to knock on your door in Canada)

 

-- was not sold at any retail stores

-- was not advertised in any magazine or newspaper or television ad

-- was designed, programmed, & assembled but never officially released

-- was sold door to door, randomly and exclusively, to some Canadian residents

 

NOTE: This game FAILS in EVERY area of qualification for ANY released list.

In reality, this game is in the same category as Amiga's Off Your Rocker

But because it had such an amazing and interesting story, it was given

special treatment and positioned itself on many 2600 game lists.

 

Even if he had knocked on some doors in northern USA bordering cities,

and thus some USA residents also had the opportunity to purchase the game,

it STILL would not qualify. Any cartridge that was exclusively made available

to a select people in a select area or situation rather then fairly made available

to the open public, is disqualified.

 

Even if the original intention was to mass produce the game, advertise it

publicly, and sell it through mail order and/or retail stores in BOTH

Canadian and USA markets, it didn't happen.

 

So the ONLY way to purchase this game from 1977-1990 was if you lived in Canada

and if you happened to live in the area he was in, and if he happened to

knock on your door, and you happened to be home.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Supergun

[high voltage]

Soon you'll arrive at number 8000, as mentioned on AtariMania

[+Psionic]

On 1/24/2019 at 7:05 PM, cx2k said:

Curious about the monogrammed Space Chase. Has a second copy been found?

 

John

Nope, not that I know of.  The only other known copy is the one that was given to Leeza Gibbons when she visited Apollo for that PM Magazine segment and that's probably long gone.  Ed Salvo claimed in this interview that Apollo sold "less than 10" but I'm not convinced they actually sold any, so I think the chances of another copy surfacing are quite slim.  I mean, who would've actually bought that thing?

[Rom Hunter]

1 hour ago, Psionic said:

Nope, not that I know of.  The only other known copy is the one that was given to Leeza Gibbons when she visited Apollo for that PM Magazine segment and that's probably long gone.  Ed Salvo claimed in this interview that Apollo sold "less than 10" but I'm not convinced they actually sold any, so I think the chances of another copy surfacing are quite slim.  I mean, who would've actually bought that thing?

There's another known (and .binned) copy showing the initials of Arnie Katz.



 

[+Psionic]

6 minutes ago, Rom Hunter said:

There's another known (and .binned) copy showing the initials of Arnie Katz.

Yeah, we know.  He's the one who acquired it from Arnie.  He asked if a second copy had been found and I answered him.

[lazzeri]

   So... I´m working on the Atari 2600 spreadsheet (OH GOD WHY) and I realized that we haven´t compiled the list & expansions into a single file.

 

   I just did that, following all the posts on this thread. The only change I did was taking Megaboy from expansion 2 and moving it to expansion 1, since it fits all criteria of that (NTSC, Stock, outside USA).

 

   I think that´s a step closer to locking the list for now? Do you mind checking it?

 

@Supergun, @stupus, @Blazing Lazers, @Rom Hunter ?

The Complete Atari 2600 NTSC.doc

Edited October 26, 2019 by lazzeri
Typo

[Rom Hunter]

Thanks for the list!

I'm trying to understand all the * remarks. A bit confusing IMO.

Some questions and corrections:

- Why are not all the *'s explained?
- Why is not everything in alphabetical order?
- Why is Asterix marked? It was available in NTSC
- Hot Rox is a WIP title of Demons to Diamonds
- Raiders of the Lost Ark is misspelled
- Star Raiders 2 is a WIP title
- BMX Airmaster (REPEAT) - (original by TNT)
- Polo is not explained
- Atlantis (REPEAT) - (original by Imagic)
- Demon Attack (REPEAT) - (original by Imagic)
- Lock Jaw is misspelled
- Spider Maze is not a ROM hack of Donkey Kong

I'll have a look at the expansions later.

Keep up the good work!

Edited October 26, 2019 by Rom Hunter

[lazzeri]

2 minutes ago, Rom Hunter said:

Thanks for the list!

I'm trying to understand all the * remarks. A bit confusing IMO.

Some questions and corrections:

- Why are not all the *'s explained?
- Why is not everything in alphabetical order?
- Why is Asterix marked? It was available in NTSC
- Hot Rox is a WIP title of Demons to Diamonds
- Raiders of the Lost Ark is misspelled
- Star Raiders 2 is a WIP title
- BMX Airmaster (REPEAT) - (original by TNT)
- Polo is not explained
- Atlantis (REPEAT) - (original by Imagic)
- Demon Attack (REPEAT) - (original by Imagic)
- Lock Jaw is misspelled
- Spider Maze is not a ROM hack of Donkey Kong

I'll have a look at the expansions later.

Keep up the good work!

 

   Actually I´ve just compiled the lists, edits & moves all around this thread. I´ll take a deeper look at it in the following days. 🙂

 

   Thank you for your remarks! I´m sure Supergun might clarify some of those.

[lazzeri]

8 minutes ago, Rom Hunter said:

Thanks for the list!

I'm trying to understand all the * remarks. A bit confusing IMO.

Some questions and corrections:

- Why are not all the *'s explained?
- Why is not everything in alphabetical order?
- Why is Asterix marked? It was available in NTSC
- Hot Rox is a WIP title of Demons to Diamonds
- Raiders of the Lost Ark is misspelled
- Star Raiders 2 is a WIP title
- BMX Airmaster (REPEAT) - (original by TNT)
- Polo is not explained
- Atlantis (REPEAT) - (original by Imagic)
- Demon Attack (REPEAT) - (original by Imagic)
- Lock Jaw is misspelled
- Spider Maze is not a ROM hack of Donkey Kong

I'll have a look at the expansions later.

Keep up the good work!

 

   On the top of my head:

 

- I´ll check all the (*) and see what can I add myself;

- Good idea, put in alphabetical order. I´ll try that;

- Asterix is probably marked because it´s a Taz hack. At least that´s why it´s not in RandomTerrain´s page.

 

I don´t get what you meant with BMX, Atlantis & Demon Attack (REPEAT), sorry.

 

Regarding Lock Jaw / Shark Attack: Wasn´t Lock Jaw released first? I think it´s the one who sits in the throne, despise being way rarer.

 

Comments on Spider Maze?

 

   Thank you!

[Rom Hunter]

19 minutes ago, lazzeri said:

 

   On the top of my head:

 

- I´ll check all the (*) and see what can I add myself;

- Good idea, put in alphabetical order. I´ll try that;

- Asterix is probably marked because it´s a Taz hack. At least that´s why it´s not in RandomTerrain´s page.

 

I don´t get what you meant with BMX, Atlantis & Demon Attack (REPEAT), sorry.

 

Regarding Lock Jaw / Shark Attack: Wasn´t Lock Jaw released first? I think it´s the one who sits in the throne, despise being way rarer.

 

Comments on Spider Maze?

 

   Thank you!

IMO the presentation of the re-releases and AKA's in the list should be consistent.

For example:

Atari Video Cube (later released as Rubik's Cube by xxx)
Rubik's Cube (REPEAT! - originally released as Atari Video Cube by xxx)

Yes, Lochjaw was first.

Spider Maze is a diffferent game than Donkey Kong

BTW: Nightmare Manor was a WIP title of Haunted House



 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Rom Hunter

[lazzeri]

26 minutes ago, Rom Hunter said:

IMO the presentation of the re-releases and AKA's in the list should be consistent.

For example:

Atari Video Cube (later released as Rubik's Cube by xxx)
Rubik's Cube (REPEAT! - originally released as Atari Video Cube by xxx)

Yes, Lochjaw was first.

Spider Maze is a diffferent game than Donkey Kong

BTW: Nightmare Manor was a WIP title of Haunted House



 

   I´ll give it a try. I just realized I´ve forgot to add Supergun´s original footnotes. Added now.

   It will be a HELL of a job to sort it alphabetically since it´s a text file with "hardcoded" numbers. I´ll see what I can do.

 

   Let´s see if anybody else says something then I´ll jump into the hard work.

 

   Thank you! Let´s do this!

[stupus]

I will look it all over when i have a chance.

I know my list was not adding protos and wips.

Thanks Marco!

[lazzeri]

Some questions:

- Wich one came first? Sea Hawk by Panda or by Froggo? Exocet (Panda) or Cruise Missile (Froggo)? Scuba Diver (Panda) or Sea Hunt (Froggo)? Karate by Ultravision or Froggo?

   I got the feeling that the Panda games and Ultravivision deserves to be called the original ones and Froggo are the copies, and that must be changed in the master list.

 

- What about Playaround? Since all their games are double-enders, shouldn´t they be listed like this? Don´t the hacks (Cathouse, lady in wading) should be added? I mean, shouldn´t the five different Double Enders enter the list?

 

   I´ll wait for approval before doing so 🙂 - specially I´d love to hear from @Supergun

 

[stupus]

Well those games were original pal titles by sancho. But the panda ntsc releases were probably before the froggo ones. The panda ones much more resemble the sancho originals and use the same art even....although its still thought panda pirated them too. I would count them over the froggo titles but the froggos are much easier to find of course.

The 2 ultravision originals are karate and condor attack.....but again the froggo karate is infinitely easier to find to complete a collection of unique titles.

I tend to list the original as the unique title and then footnote it with other more common versions.

I have always been torn on how to add the adult games. I collect both versions myself but they are technically hacks even though they have considerable graphic changes.

I would list the original with a footnote of the male/female equivalent version.

 

Also i think the games should be kept listed by company rather than all games alphabetical. 

It gets too confusing to lump them all together in my opinion. Alphabetical by company i think works great.

 

I think sea monster is listed twice on your list too? And the last few games have lost the company headings it seems?

Edited October 26, 2019 by stupus