Technical Differences Between the 3DO and Atari Jaguar explored

[Atari Pogostick]

Hello everyone, I've always wondered what the real issue with the Jaguar was and over the years I've heard many different reasons brought up. Especially when comparing to it's rival console that released the same year. The two reasons I hear the most are the following:

 

1. The Jaguar "Tools" were insufficient

 

2. The 68k blocked full access to the riscs.

 

On top of these two reasons, it is also common to hear from interviewers and analysts (from back then and now) saying that the Jaguar unconstrained is a bit less powerful than the PSX and notably more powerful than the 3DO. This is what i want to explore the most because it doesn't make much sense to me.

 

In this comparison between the 3DO and the Jaguar I bring up two specific games, World Tour Racing for the Jaguar, and Autobahn Tokio for the 3DO. The reason I choose these games is simple: World Tour Racing, if not the best technical game (in terms of consistency) on the Jaguar, it's definitely top 3. Autobahn tokio was rushed and used horrible tools and is one of the more inconsistent and less graphically impressive games on the 3DO. The reason why I wouldn't use games like NFS here is because Autobahn and WTR are very close to each other in graphical fidelity, relatively, and would be a better pair of games to prove the point I'm trying to express.

 

Basically I believe that, whether it's because of the design of the Jaguar board or its a lie the Jaguar had as much power as people say in the first place, it's IMPOSSIBLE, even if you had full access to RISC and had a more flexible bus/memory, that the Jaguar still wouldn't produce much better than World Tour Racing. I believe at best, you'd have a slightly better, but noticeable, frame rate, and more stable polygons, marginally.

 

Now before I begin, I actually am a bigger fan of the Jaguar, I think the Jag does have enough power so as not to be compared to CD32/32X 3D, but I also believe there's a reason that back then, and mostly currently, the 3DO is more consistently compared to the SAT/PSX and the Jag is much more frequently compared to 32X/CD32 and even Genesis/SNES 3D chips. I think the belief that the Jaguar would show significant and amazing improvements with just better memory management and full access to RISC, a belief that is prevalent, is simple nonsense.

 

Now let's compare these two games in the following gifs:

 

 

 

On the left is WTR and on the right is AT. Now World Tour Racing looks good, is one of if not the best polygon pushing game on the Jaguar, especially when you look at image quality, consistency and Frame-rate.

 

Image quality wise i'd easily give it to WTR. However, outside of that it's completely lop-sided. AT has a much better and more consistent frame-rate and that's despite AT being jerky. AT has much better texturing whether on the objects, the road itself, or the vehicles. You also have more going on from flashing signs, to smoke and lighting (90's lighting anyway), with buildings and objects of multiple sizes zooming by. While in WTR most of the buildings, while impressive from certain perspectives, are in reality are giant gray rectangles with one side slightly textured with windows facing the track, and copy and pasted trees in a very repetitive and static design. However I will say WTR may beat AT at draw distance.

 

Now let's look at NFS on 3DO

 

 

As you can see this blows the other two games out the water technically. It's not even close.

 

So here's my issue. World Tour Racing was a late Jaguar game, that was able to do more with the tools than other developers. Yet it cant beat a rushed jerky mess (AT) graphically, let alone come even remotely close to NFS. So this caused me to wonder, if the gap is THIS big, can it simply be lack of access to the RISC or the tools? it doesn't make any logical sense to come to that conclusion.

 

Most of the top 3D games on the Jaguar, while the Image Quality or the size of the polygons is improved, they all share fairly similar problems regardless. Even with better understanding years later, even Post-release homebrews, you still have similar problems. Would full access to RISC and better tools really do THAT much better than World Tour Racing? At Best I see the Jaguar running a game similar to AT and not much more than that and even that's stretching it due to flashing signs and a frame-rate most 3D Jaguar games dream of.

 

I believe the Jaguar is capable of early 90's PC 3D, and the ability to have scaling 2D like Super Termination or Outrunners can do. I think that's the level the Jaguar should have targeted in the first place, that was more than enough to run the popular games and many arcade ports back in those days. But the jaguar focused much more on trying to reach 3DO/PSX polygons which it could never do and basically didn't care about Psudo-3D 2D at all.

 

If you were to ask me if the Jaguar was easier to develop for if it would have sold much more, than yeah, that's a situation I think is possible. But, as for the Jaguar having some kind of secret sauce, I don't buy it. the difference between the 3DO and JAGUAR is too big and that's using a rushed jerky racing game(AT), and a game that came out earlier in the 3DO's life(NFS). "Lack of access" and "Tools" cannot explain away a gap that large. It's like comparing the N64 to the Dreamcast.

 

Now with that said, I would have loved Atari to try put out Scaling 2D games with pseudo 3d effects. It's interesting that there was no console that ever tried bring those scaling 2D arcade games at home. The PSX/SAT/3DO/JAG are more than capable for these types of games and we never got them. In fact most are still in arcades and only in arcades. Damn shame. I would have loved to play Super Criminal Termination at home.

 

 

[Flojomojo]

Can we please not do this?

 

There are a lot of other "versus" threads you can read if you want to discuss the relative merits of 30yo game systems and show your thoughts using GIFs.

[Atari Pogostick]

Can we please not do this?

 

There are a lot of other "versus" threads you can read if you want to discuss the relative merits of 30yo game systems and show your thoughts using GIFs.

It's not a vs. thread but thanks for not reading, also neither are 30 years old either.

[+Gemintronic]

3DO had Trips instead of the cheaper interrupts Tramiels decided to use.

[Atari Pogostick]

3DO had Trips instead of the cheaper interrupts Tramiels decided to use.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Lost Dragon]

Jaguar is now 25 and during those 25 years, thanks to so many from the industry coming forward and being completely open with the experiences they had with both the Jaguar and 3DO platforms and in Jaguar's case the Tramiels....

 

It's been very well established and documented why games turned out the way they did on both...what could of been done differently if projects hadn't been interfered with...

 

What further optimisation to existing game engines would of achived in cases like Doom, WTR, AVP game engine based Legions Of The Undead..

 

Better frame rates, higher resolutions used and the like..

 

Better...but not the gigantic leaps into the mythical realms of matching Pentium PC's and the Playstation some would have others believe.

 

We know how bugged the hardware was, how difficult the Tramiels were to deal with, how games on both systems suffered by being given to the lowest bidders etc.

 

I'm as guilty as hell in terms of finding and sharing new quotes from commercial coders and look through the superb interviews Arcade Attack do, to get some fresh industry views on the Jaguar.

 

But you'll discover the same reasons and themes each time for both systems, new finds just further cement what was long ago established.

 

Yet still you have the Jaguar flat earthtypes who try and fill people's head with nonsense about talk of Quake, Tomb Raider etc on Jaguar, lowest bidders like Imagitec Design having secret advanced 3D game engines etc.

 

I doubt anyone is really looking forward to another 5 years of what's gone before.

[Punisher5.0]

I wouldnt count on anything past WTR graphically. It looks impressive for the limited 3D capability of the Jaguar. Both systems are in completely different price ranges though so hard to compare fairly.

[Atari Pogostick]

I wouldnt count on anything past WTR graphically. It looks impressive for the limited 3D capability of the Jaguar. Both systems are in completely different price ranges though so hard to compare fairly.

Not sure what the price range has to do with anything. Yeah 3Do had some newer parts but that would place it $100 more at best but liekly closer to $50 more, the rest of the price difference was the distribution model which brough it to $500 ($700 with gun and included game.)

[Tanooki]

$100? Pretty sure the Jag was around the $300 range when it hit, the 3DO was a $600 console. So unless it was very poorly bid out parts or greed, I'd say one over the other had more going on under the hood, yet as some said already, history is there how various levels of stupidity and incompetence crippled the potential of both.

[Flojomojo]

I don't know the manufacturing cost for either one, but both of them launched in late 1993.

 

Jaguar launch price was $250 (which would be like $429 today, adjusting for inflation)

3DO launch price was $700 (which would be like $1202 today, adjusting for inflation)

 

This information is easy to find, even if you don't remember when it happened (as I do).

 

Both were steeply discounted after a while. The Sony Playstation ate their lunches, rendering the "who wore it best" question moot in my opinion.

[Atari Pogostick]

I don't know the manufacturing cost for either one, but both of them launched in late 1993.

 

Jaguar launch price was $250 (which would be like $429 today, adjusting for inflation)

3DO launch price was $700 (which would be like $1202 today, adjusting for inflation)

 

This information is easy to find, even if you don't remember when it happened (as I do).

 

Both were steeply discounted after a while. The Sony Playstation ate their lunches, rendering the "who wore it best" question moot in my opinion.

 

I mean I don't know what this post has to do with anything. I was responding to Punishers implication the 3DO's power was based on its price.

 

(Also 3D0 launched at $500 and $700 not just $700. Still expensive.)

 

 

$100? Pretty sure the Jag was around the $300 range when it hit, the 3DO was a $600 console. So unless it was very poorly bid out parts or greed, I'd say one over the other had more going on under the hood, yet as some said already, history is there how various levels of stupidity and incompetence crippled the potential of both.

 

Try reading my post again.

[+remowilliams]

2. The 68k blocked full access to the riscs.

 

NO

 

 

[...] the Jaguar unconstrained is a bit less powerful than the PSX and notably more powerful than the 3DO.

 

 

NO

[Lost Dragon]

I wouldnt count on anything past WTR graphically. It looks impressive for the limited 3D capability of the Jaguar. Both systems are in completely different price ranges though so hard to compare fairly.

Exactly.

 

Lee talked of a second Jaguar CD Racing Game coming from himself, using an optimised version of the WTR engine, but it would deliver cleaner, faster 3D.

 

I've always read that as WTR but with a better frame rate, not much higher polygon counts, lots more texture mapping and using a higher resolution mode of the Jaguar.

[Atari Pogostick]

 

NO

 

 

 

 

NO

 

It's not me saying that,s those are just claims that are still prevalent in 2018 across the net.

Exactly.

 

Lee talked of a second Jaguar CD Racing Game coming from himself, using an optimised version of the WTR engine, but it would deliver cleaner, faster 3D.

 

I've always read that as WTR but with a better frame rate, not much higher polygon counts, lots more texture mapping and using a higher resolution mode of the Jaguar.

 

I think the biggest Asset the Jaguar has, even compared to the N64/PSX, is that it has image quality. it's image quality for it's flat texture polygon games are absolutely amazing. If WTR got a sequel with higher frame rates and some fake lighting and shadow effects you could make the game look amazing despite the game really being shoe boxes rolling around a track with buildings that are gray blocks.

 

Jaguar can do some texturing though, I'm sure that if given time and budget a WTR sequel could add some textures to the road and wheels a little. Maybe an Iron Soldier 3 with more destruction could be done as well wit better optimization (and also higher frame rate)

[+remowilliams]

It's not me saying that,s those are just claims that are still prevalent in 2018 across the net.

Because most people have zero idea of what they are talking about.

 

BOTH of those things are simply not true. They are factually incorrect. Period. End of Story.

[Lost Dragon]

I'm out.

 

The super scaler thread has tipped the proverbial wheelbarrow over.

 

When people are presented with a wealth of documented views from the very people who coded commercial Jaguar 3D games in teams and as individuals and have openly stated in their view how far they pushed the system and what minimal improvements they could of achived with further optimisation. ..

 

Better looking versions of Doom and WTR get replaced by Jaguar doing 1st Generation Playstation 1 or later texture mapped 3D at same frame rates.

 

Indeed the earth is flat...here be dragons and there are witches..

[Flojomojo]

Try reading my post again.

 

[Tanooki]

Dude you're just trolling with your posts, seriously? Then you get mad and all tin foil conspiracy about it when you don't get a sheepy response.

[Atari Pogostick]

I like how the last three posts in this thread before this one are three morons who are responding to the wrong thread. Thsi thread is about the jaguar and the last post by me was agreeing with someone on how much more impressiveWTR could be with more time.. All three reported for thread derailing. Look before leaping.

[derFunkenstein]

The real answer is not technical. The real answer is that the 3DO sold around 2 million units, where the Jaguar sold "less than 250,000". No reason to put much effort into it if the console doesn't sell well.

 

Source: Archive.org preservation of the (lost) GamePro original article.

 

edit: I missed this gem earlier.

 

I think the biggest Asset the Jaguar has, even compared to the N64/PSX, is that it has image quality. it's image quality for it's flat texture polygon games are absolutely amazing. If WTR got a sequel with higher frame rates and some fake lighting and shadow effects you could make the game look amazing despite the game really being shoe boxes rolling around a track with buildings that are gray blocks.

 

Jaguar can do some texturing though, I'm sure that if given time and budget a WTR sequel could add some textures to the road and wheels a little. Maybe an Iron Soldier 3 with more destruction could be done as well wit better optimization (and also higher frame rate)

This is written by somebody who doesn't understand what they're saying. They're marketing terms in the context which they're being used. "It has image quality!"

Edited September 7, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[Atari Pogostick]

The real answer is not technical. The real answer is that the 3DO sold around 2 million units, where the Jaguar sold "less than 250,000". No reason to put much effort into it if the console doesn't sell well.

 

Source: Archive.org preservation of the (lost) GamePro original article.

 

edit: I missed this gem earlier.

 

 

This is written by somebody who doesn't understand what they're saying. They're marketing terms in the context which they're being used. "It has image quality!"

 

I don't understand your post. Look at the gif above, WTR has good image quality, as in the image is more clean. Look at AT, that game clearly is better technically but its image clarity is bad. Do you not agree with that? Also it was a response to someone saying that a WTR2 could be better but not much better, and I gave my opinion on what a hypothetical WTR sequel could include.

 

As for sales, yeah the 3DO sold 2 million, but that was at the end of its life. During the time, some people though AVP sales would bring a second life to the Jaguar, of course looking back those thoughts were completely wrong, but AVP was no sloutch so I can see why some people did belief the Jaguar had a chance after AVP. For a short time.

[Lost Dragon]

I'm going to report myself...

 

There is no way i am ever getting the time wasted back.

 

Damn my moronic self.

 

Reported myself as promised.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[digdugnate]

I like how the last three posts in this thread before this one are three morons who are responding to the wrong thread. Thsi thread is about the jaguar and the last post by me was agreeing with someone on how much more impressiveWTR could be with more time.. All three reported for thread derailing. Look before leaping.

not an expert by any means, but calling folks 'morons' seems like a not-great way to present your argument.

[jaybird3rd]

Atari Pogostick: Please desist from name-calling, and from submitting a report every time you feel that someone is derailing a thread. That's not what the "Report" button is for.

[Atari Pogostick]

Atari Pogostick: Please desist from name-calling, and from submitting a report every time you feel that someone is derailing a thread. That's not what the "Report" button is for.

Interesting the others don't get anything for name calling but when i do it later back to them it's fine. Nice modding there.