What are the graphic capabilities of a Stock Famicom/NES?

[ubersaurus]

My understanding is that the generally used 7800 resolution is a tad lower than the generally used NES resolution. I do like Scrapyard Dog and have never really looked in the framerate (keep in mind that youtube caps SD videos at a pretty low framerate), but it's true that it plays a little less smoothly than Super Mario Bros, in my experience. A little jerkier, I guess you could say?

[Atari Pogostick]

I just watched a video of Scrapyard dog. Its impressive looking for sure. In SMB defense though it looks like Scrapyard dog runs at half the framerate and a lower resolution. This is just judging by a Youtube video though.

 

SYD runs better than some of the YouTube videos I looked up, but at the same time I don't really say SYD is the best example of the 7800 horizontal software scrolling abilities, that would likely go to Kung Fu master or Choplifter

 

 

Mgy understanding is that the generally used 7800 resolution is a tad lower than the generally used NES resolution. I do like Scrapyard Dog and have never really looked in the framerate (keep in mind that youtube caps SD videos at a pretty low framerate), but it's true that it plays a little less smoothly than Super Mario Bros, in my experience. A little jerkier, I guess you could say?

The 7800 is capable of a higher resolution than NES, however like two games ended up doing that from what I recall. SYD scrolling is indeed jerkier than the NES but as I said above I don't think that's the best example of the 7800's scrolling. SYD was also poorly optimized and rushed out, you wouldn't get the full SYD until the Lynx version.S SYD on 7800 was supposed to have more colors and background detail.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Atari Pogostick

[JBerel]

Didn't someone start this exact same discussion like, two years ago, that descended into a pedantic argument over what "stock" meant?

 

Biff? Missed you...

 

[Nebulon]

From what I understand the ColecoVision was planning on doing something similar with "Super" cartridges. But I believe it ended up being too expensive so they switched to wafers? Then they dropped the idea all together at the end?

 

I forgot what it was called but I heard back in the day Coleco was going to release some sort of Super Extension to ColecoVisions and then it was cancelled.

 

You mean this?

 

https://archive.org/stream/Electronic_Games_Volume_01_Number_16_1983-06_Reese_Communications_US#page/n43/search/electronic+games+magazine

Edited September 11, 2018 by Nebulon

[atarilovesyou]

Side topic: I remember reading in an issue of Nintendo Power (?) once upon a time what the various MM chips did...I recall that one, MM5 I think, that was only used for Punch Out, due to the large sprites.

 

Can somebody please explain in layman's terms what the MM chips do?...is it just more RAM, or a means to use that memory better? Doesn't it mean "memory manager", after all?

 

Thanks!

[JaguarVision]

 

You mean this?

 

https://archive.org/stream/Electronic_Games_Volume_01_Number_16_1983-06_Reese_Communications_US#page/n43/search/electronic+games+magazine

 

Yes that's it! I remember we were supposed to be in shock once we saw the graphics on that thing! Which sadly never happened.

 

 

Side topic: I remember reading in an issue of Nintendo Power (?) once upon a time what the various MM chips did...I recall that one, MM5 I think, that was only used for Punch Out, due to the large sprites.

 

Can somebody please explain in layman's terms what the MM chips do?...is it just more RAM, or a means to use that memory better? Doesn't it mean "memory manager", after all?

 

Thanks!

 

The MMC's did various things: Helped with multi-directional scrolling, help with bank-switching, support split-screen, and even adding sound channels. Plus more ROM/RAM.

 

The Punch-Out one was MMC2 if I'm not mistaken. The NES was designed with mappers in mind though, and while the first of the MMC chips were made in 86, Nintendo and others did put other chips in the NES before that, they just were not MMC, so the OP needs to specify what stock is honestly.

Edited September 11, 2018 by JaguarVision

[JBerel]

Et tu Biffster?... You do like to keep it fresh eh?

 

[atarilovesyou]

 

Yes that's it! I remember we were supposed to be in shock once we saw the graphics on that thing! Which sadly never happened.

 

 

 

The MMC's did various things: Helped with multi-directional scrolling, help with bank-switching, support split-screen, and even adding sound channels. Plus more ROM/RAM.

 

The Punch-Out one was MMC2 if I'm not mistaken. The NES was designed with mappers in mind though, and while the first of the MMC chips were made in 86, Nintendo and others did put other chips in the NES before that, they just were not MMC, so the OP needs to specify what stock is honestly.

Mappers...these are also on the chips? I only learned about them when I bought the NES Powerpak...but other than knowing that there are lots of different mappers, I don't know what they do.

[JaguarVision]

Mappers...these are also on the chips? I only learned about them when I bought the NES Powerpak...but other than knowing that there are lots of different mappers, I don't know what they do.

The MMC are mappers technically. They are memory management controllers.

 

While a standard maper is just an enhancer. Some NES games have mappers to help with memory but no MMC. I listed what the MMCs do but standard mappers can have various applications depending on the developer.

[mr_me]

You can distinguish between mappers that are ASIC chips and those that are simple discrete logic chips. ASIC mapper chips were more complex and expensive to produce. They can provide added functions such as sound processing and split screen scrolling. Discrete logic mapper chips primarily allow larger cartridges beyond the standard 32k+8k and should have been simple and inexpensive to produce. Then you have 8k video ram on the cartridge which is not mapped but at one time would have been very expensive.

 

This site shows which mappers used ASICs.

http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Comparison_of_Nintendo_mappers

Edited September 11, 2018 by mr_me

[Kiwi]

Can somebody please explain in layman's terms what the MM chips do?...is it just more RAM, or a means to use that memory better? Doesn't it mean "memory manager", after all?

It's advance bankswitching chip. NES can only access 32KB of PRG-ROM and 8KB of CHR-ROM/CHR-RAM. Like Atari 2600 can only access 4KB of ROM. The mapper help switch out and in memory. For example the use of a mapper, is animated background like in Little Nemo/Super Mario Bros 2. Since CHR-ROM is connected to the PPU, the mapper change part the chr-rom bank to another part of the ROM. So the tileset can be switch in and out very quickly. It can switch in a new tileset midway of the screen, so you have 2 tilesets on screen at once. So some game use CHR-RAM, which is slower to upload tileset to and not really ideal to animate background. Developer usually color cycle the background color to simulate animation like Megaman 2, which uses CHR-RAM.

[Tanooki]

I had a sub to NP until they sold it to some fools at Future that ruined it by the first one they put out and I remember those fun old articles.

Castlevania III used the MMC5 along with a few Koei games, and that is right, it had some memory on it, even allowed for more audio (which CV3 didn't do), more colors, a better pixel density, it was a beast among others in the US area.

MMC2 was only on Punchout. It made it possible to have larger graphics on the screen without having to having to manually switch things to do so which wouldn't work for those big boxers and their animated faces.

 

The common ones really were the MMC1 and 3, there was MMC6 for the Startropics games with it being a copy of the MMC3 with a little tiny extra RAM included. Both the MMC1 and 3 had many variants of the chip. The basics of it the MMC1 was allowing for switching memory banks for both PRG and CHR, that's really it, and that helped drive Zelda, Mega Man 2, Metroid, TMNT and others. The MMC3 was more interesting for sure popularized with the Megaman games 3-6, SMB3, Kirby etc. It had an IRQ counter that's scanline based which allowed for easy split screen scrolling along with some added both PRG and CHR banks to select and use. You know when you see like the bottom bar in SMB3 or in NES Play Action Football and it's static while those games run in all sorts of directions, that is the big thing with the MMC3.

 

I could waste a lot more space, but this really spells it out nicely enough on the wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_management_controller It's not a complete list, but it's pretty solid on the more popularized US and Japanese stuff. You want crazy look at the Konami VRC setup because when it hit its two highest values the added audio capabilities were insane, especially with the one off Lagrange Point as it used a 6 channel Yamaha Synthesis chip.

[digdugnate]

this is kind of a crappy scan, but this is the article I remember reading in NP that Tanooki reminded me about. I'm looking to see if I can find a better quality image.

 

edit to add: found it! here's a link to the full article.

 

https://imgur.com/a/tWGf8

Edited September 12, 2018 by digdugnate

[empsolo]

It’s a shame they didn’t mention the MMC4 Chip. That one is interesting as it’s the chip that handles the level scaling and level growth for the two Famicom Fire Emblem games as well as Famicom Wars.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tanooki]

Pointless, they weren't going to acknowledge a chip that stayed in Japan for a series they pretended didn't even exist to us until the 2000s on GBA. I'm glad that scan turned up, nice find. That MMC5 was a true wonder what they did with it, especially the color setup being able to to 16 in a space of usually 4, and of course the audio which I think Koei games used as CV3 lazily(we're talking Konami) didn't do.

 

I was kind of curious why the MMC2 never got used more. Given how it allowed for huge characters and then basically sprites over them to go for all those animations on the faces, hands, feet making them more for the time realistic, it was an accomplishment. Imagine had that been tapped for some run and gun or a space shooter.

[digdugnate]

i had all the Nintendo Powers up till the mid-90s (i think maybe 94?) but I dumped them in one of my moves years ago. I've been kicking myself for that ever since.

[atarilovesyou]

i had all the Nintendo Powers up till the mid-90s (i think maybe 94?) but I dumped them in one of my moves years ago. I've been kicking myself for that ever since.

I wish I kept the few I had as well, those early ones. Now...if we could only find a way to get that massive download of the ENTIRE collection that was taken down by the Big N...if only somebody...KNEW...a way that we could get those files...YEEEEEeeessss, that would be...a good day

[ubersaurus]

Pointless, they weren't going to acknowledge a chip that stayed in Japan for a series they pretended didn't even exist to us until the 2000s on GBA. I'm glad that scan turned up, nice find. That MMC5 was a true wonder what they did with it, especially the color setup being able to to 16 in a space of usually 4, and of course the audio which I think Koei games used as CV3 lazily(we're talking Konami) didn't do.

 

I was kind of curious why the MMC2 never got used more. Given how it allowed for huge characters and then basically sprites over them to go for all those animations on the faces, hands, feet making them more for the time realistic, it was an accomplishment. Imagine had that been tapped for some run and gun or a space shooter.

Nothing lazy about CV3 not using MMC5 audio abilities - the western NES cartridge port doesn't have the pins used for additional audio from either the MMC5 or the VRC. They were able to use MMC5 for all the other aspects of the game needed to make it run in the west, but that one was going to elude them unless they somehow build a funky cart that reaches around to the underside of the console. Same story with Romance of the 3 Kingdoms 2.

[JaguarVision]

I brought a bunch of the last issue of NP. The fact not as many people as I expected thought of that just shows why the canned it in the first place.

 

All mint and wrapped. A few years from now those will be worth something.

 

Sadly I forgot to do that with the last Atari magazines.

[youxia]

They're still on archive.org.

[Tanooki]

Nothing lazy about CV3 not using MMC5 audio abilities - the western NES cartridge port doesn't have the pins used for additional audio from either the MMC5 or the VRC. They were able to use MMC5 for all the other aspects of the game needed to make it run in the west, but that one was going to elude them unless they somehow build a funky cart that reaches around to the underside of the console. Same story with Romance of the 3 Kingdoms 2.

 

I know it didn't for the Famicom and Disk System, but I thought the MMC5 being a US centric chip that wasn't the problem. Are you saying the US Koei games lack this too then? Seems so which is a shame. It does make me wonder if any of those games if they have it, and using a modern bypass, could get into that audio. I'm talking either some crappy emulator box or a genuine good thing like a HiDefNES kit since that can kick out all those added channels.

[+Andrew Davie]

I wish Andrew Davie would chime in. He came up with some novel scrolling techniques for Bigfoot.

 

The main question being: does it matter that snazzy techniques not using hardware assist are present in carts using MMC chips. I mean, if the game engine as a whole needs an MMC then does it still qualify.

 

I'm not quite sure what you need to know, but I'm happy to comment on any questions you may have.

[+Black_Tiger]

I know it didn't for the Famicom and Disk System, but I thought the MMC5 being a US centric chip that wasn't the problem. Are you saying the US Koei games lack this too then? Seems so which is a shame. It does make me wonder if any of those games if they have it, and using a modern bypass, could get into that audio. I'm talking either some crappy emulator box or a genuine good thing like a HiDefNES kit since that can kick out all those added channels.

I don't think that there would be multiple soundtracks in the same rom. It made sense for Mark III games to support FM sound and PSG, but Famicom games with chip enhanced sound were always going to only play the on-cart supported sound.