Atari Pogostick #1 Posted September 9, 2018 By Stock I mean without any additional graphical chips in the cartridges. I'm curious because this is a topic seldom discussed, people bring up games like SMB3 or Startropics as NES graphical achievements even though the system can't run those games without out the box. Now, surely the original NES is still a capable machine. It is clearly able to stand with other early 80's machines like the ColecoVision, but not quite as powerful as a 7800. What I'm curious about is, is the stock famicom still slightly more capable than the pre-crash consoles or are games like antartic adventure among the best it can produce with stock hardware? I know the Ppu the Famicom uses helps with the chips, but does it make much of a difference with stock hardware for drawing graphics? Also did the stock famicom have the Yamaha audio at launch or was that later added-in? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
godslabrat #2 Posted September 9, 2018 Didnt someone start this exact same discussion like, two years ago, that descended into a pedantic argument over what "stock" meant? 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_me #3 Posted September 9, 2018 (edited) By graphical chips you mean processors, because famicom graphics is designed to use rom/ram on the cartridge. There's plenty of information out there about the famicom ppu, start with wikipedia. Atari had the colours, coleco vision had the resolution, intellivision had the pixel multi-directional scrolling. The nes/famicom had it all and more. The 7800 graphics was very different for comparison, maybe a comparison with the commodore 64 is better. Edited September 9, 2018 by mr_me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Osgeld #4 Posted September 9, 2018 2 kB of external RAM to store tile layout and auxiliary color information for background graphics (commonly referred to as nametables) 288 (256+32) bytes of internal DRAM for sprite attribute storage. This is measured in the amount of address space consumed; not every bit of every byte exists in the PPU. 32 bytes of internal SRAM for palette storage. As for sprite attribute storage, not all bits exist in the PPU. 8 × 8 or 8 × 16 (selectable) sized sprites Two external 4 kB tile sets with space for 256 tiles each, usually stored in either RAM or ROM on the game cartridge Up to 64 sprites (movable objects) on screen simultaneously (only 8 visible per scan line) 25 colors simultaneously (although more colors are possible using programming tricks) from a hardware color palette of 54 colors Picture resolution of 256 × 240 pixels (fully visible on PAL, but cropped to 256 × 224 on most NTSC television sets) there, saved the bother, that's what a stock ppu can do Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atari Pogostick #5 Posted September 9, 2018 Didnt someone start this exact same discussion like, two years ago, that descended into a pedantic argument over what "stock" meant? I don't see the confusion. Stock just means the hardware that was released in 1983. The first few years of games released on the famicom mostly only used the stock hardware for the most part. I'm wondering how capable that hardware was. Was it slightly more powerful than the early 80's consoles or was that around the extent of it's power without enhancements? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atari Pogostick #6 Posted September 9, 2018 2 kB of external RAM to store tile layout and auxiliary color information for background graphics (commonly referred to as nametables) 288 (256+32) bytes of internal DRAM for sprite attribute storage. This is measured in the amount of address space consumed; not every bit of every byte exists in the PPU. 32 bytes of internal SRAM for palette storage. As for sprite attribute storage, not all bits exist in the PPU. 8 × 8 or 8 × 16 (selectable) sized sprites Two external 4 kB tile sets with space for 256 tiles each, usually stored in either RAM or ROM on the game cartridge Up to 64 sprites (movable objects) on screen simultaneously (only 8 visible per scan line) 25 colors simultaneously (although more colors are possible using programming tricks) from a hardware color palette of 54 colors Picture resolution of 256 × 240 pixels (fully visible on PAL, but cropped to 256 × 224 on most NTSC television sets) there, saved the bother, that's what a stock ppu can do</p> On paper this looks like it would produce more than what we got with the early famicom releases. I wonder if there's a bottleneck that was only circumvented after chips were added? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Osgeld #7 Posted September 9, 2018 No it's cause humons did not take full advantage of a chip they never had used before as their skill progressed so did the quality 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flojomojo #8 Posted September 9, 2018 It doesn't matter what the "stock" hardware can do, because the reality of the situation is that developers released games with extra mappers, memory, and storage for saving progress. The old discussion about the bare hardware is searchable if you're into the theoretical circle-jerk. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
empsolo #9 Posted September 9, 2018 I don't see the confusion. Stock just means the hardware that was released in 1983. The first few years of games released on the famicom mostly only used the stock hardware for the most part. I'm wondering how capable that hardware was. Was it slightly more powerful than the early 80's consoles or was that around the extent of it's power without enhancements? Miyamoto is on record saying that Super Mario Bros was the Famicom being pushed to its limit without the use of extra addons and chips. The FDS was Nintendo’s first attempt at making use of the Famicom’s modular capabilities. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atari Pogostick #10 Posted September 9, 2018 No it's cause humons did not take full advantage of a chip they never had used before as their skill progressed so did the quality Huh? The Famicom basically produced similar with stock hardware until they made chip add-ons more frequent. If the stock NES with ppu was as capable as it says on paper there would have to be a reason why developers didn't push it more and instead went with the short cut of adding extended hardware. Look at Antartic Adventure and Battle City, those games came out later in 1985, the CV can run both those games, in fact AA is on the CV! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Osgeld #11 Posted September 9, 2018 So what it at one point was a brand new chip people had to learn about what it can and cant do Maybe you are some one who can pick up a paint brush for the first time and paint Mona lisa but most are not Whats nintendo going to do spend a pile of money and not release games until the hardware is pushed to its max Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atari Pogostick #12 Posted September 9, 2018 Miyamoto is on record saying that Super Mario Bros was the Famicom being pushed to its limit without the use of extra addons and chips. The FDS was Nintendos first attempt at making use of the Famicoms modular capabilities. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Oh really? Can you post a link to that interview when you can? If that's true that SMB is around the peak of what the hardware can do, then that means it's more powerful than an CV/MSX, but only slightly, with stock hardware. That would imply those chips really made a HUGE difference to that systems longetivity. Quite interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atari Pogostick #13 Posted September 9, 2018 So what it at one point was a brand new chip people had to learn about what it can and cant do Maybe you are some one who can pick up a paint brush for the first time and paint Mona lisa but most are not Whats nintendo going to do spend a pile of money and not release games until the hardware is pushed to its max Devshad nearly 3 years with the system and produced the same results. The user above says SMB was around the best the machine could do. If true that would explain why that happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flojomojo #14 Posted September 9, 2018 That would imply those chips really made a HUGE difference to that systems longetivity. Quite interesting. And blindingly obvious. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
empsolo #15 Posted September 9, 2018 (edited) Oh really? Can you post a link to that interview when you can? If that's true that SMB is around the peak of what the hardware can do, then that means it's more powerful than an CV/MSX, but only slightly, with stock hardware. That would imply those chips really made a HUGE difference to that systems longetivity. Quite interesting. https://www.nintendo.com/nes-classic/super-mario-bros-and-super-mario-bros-3-developer-interview It's not exactly what I said, but here he uses the term "grand culmination" with regards to the cartridge development on the Famicom. I'll have to dig deeper but he seems to imply that Super mario Bros was it with regards to "stock" hardware. Edited September 9, 2018 by empsolo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_me #16 Posted September 9, 2018 (edited) On paper this looks like it would produce more than what we got with the early famicom releases. I wonder if there's a bottleneck that was only circumvented after chips were added?One of the bottlenecks was the cost of memory chips including cartridge rom. In the early 1980s it was still expensive limiting the size and complexity of games for all consoles. Memory prices started to come down in the mid 1980s and we quickly went from 4k rom cartridges to 16k, then 32k, 64k, and 128k by 1987. This alone meant programmers could do the type of games that were not possible before regardless of graphical limitations. Edited September 9, 2018 by mr_me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atari Pogostick #17 Posted September 9, 2018 https://www.nintendo.com/nes-classic/super-mario-bros-and-super-mario-bros-3-developer-interview It's not exactly what I said, but here he uses the term "grand culmination" with regards to the cartridge development on the Famicom. I'll have to dig deeper but he seems to imply that Super mario Bros was it with regards to "stock" hardware. Say what? Anyway while not that amazing SMB is still a good accomplishment with stock hardware. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanooki #18 Posted September 10, 2018 No it's cause humons did not take full advantage of a chip they never had used before as their skill progressed so did the quality Solid answer right along with the specs before. This was new stuff in a new arrangement for game makers in 1983 let alone 1985/86 outside Japan. It took time, simple as that. But if you really want to find a lovely long standing sliding scale for time from Nintendo look no further than the stock Gameboy hardware. Check out the 1989 and 1990 games, then look 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, and more down the line. You can see a marked improvement in general going along especially with efforts that really were attempted vs cheap puzzles and licensed drek. You did get the odd stand out that was visually wow against peers like the Konami and Capcom stuff in 90/91 but in general things just progressed with time. Throw the color in the mix with the 2x CPU, 4x and 2x of RAM and WRAM it had, and you go from Tetris, Baseball, Mario Land and Heiankyo Alien to stuff like Dragon's Lair, Cannon Fodder, Metal Gear and Warlocked. I don't get why we're going over this again, as it wasn't even 2 years if perhaps even a year ago, as it's just fodder for arguing anyway. Stock hardware was designed to not be an end but a means to an end because the costs of various things in the day so they knew the best route was within the carts, not the hardware, hardware that still outshined the others which SMB1 showed enough. Sure you can argue this or that system had the same, but even then you had a better quality of display to color, sprites, and the audio aspect of it too I would think. The Famicom on its own was capable better than the others, but it was designed to be far more while passing costs off to the cartridges themselves. This is a model Nintendo pounded away with on all their cart based systems forward through the 80s and 90s. SNES had the Lo/HiRom + special chipsets, GB had the MBC1 through 5, N64 not so much but it did seem to have a way of things with the different CICs used which could range a game in quality from Mario 64 up to Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine in the end of days. Nintendo has always been about moderate but very capable hardware with larger end expansion on the back end either in game, or with an add-on device (FDS, Satteliview, 64DD.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Gemintronic #19 Posted September 10, 2018 Here's a hastily filtered list of NROM (a.k.a. no ROM) games. This should give people some idea of what was accomplished at the time with no hardware assist. Suffice to say other systems could have better quality graphics and effects. But, that would have been in a perfect future where developers could get more experienced with the base hardware such as the 7800. 10 Yard Fight 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) 10 Yard Fight (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) 110 in 1 Menu 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) 1942 (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) 58 In 1 Menu 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) 76 In 1 Menu 32k PRG / 0k CHR H ---- (0) Antarctic Adventure 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Arkanoid 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Astro Robo Sasa 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) B-Wings 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Back to the Future 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) <--bad dump Balloon Fight 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Balloon Fight (PAL) 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Baltron 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Baseball 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Baseball (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Battle City 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Binary Land 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Bokosuka Wars 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Bomberman (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Burgertime (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Chack N' Pop 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Challenger 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Championship Lode Runner 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Clu Clu Land disk-to-nes conv. 32k PRG / 8k CHR H -- (0) [uses .sav file to load] Defender 2 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Devil World 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Dig Dug 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Dig Dug 2 (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Donkey Kong 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Donkey Kong 3 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Donkey Kong Jr. 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Donkey Kong Jr. Math 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Donkey Kong Jr. Sansuu Asobi 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Door Door 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Dough Boy 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Downtown Nekketsu Jidaigekidayo 128k PRG / 128k CHR H MMC3 (4) Duck 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Duck Hunt 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Elevator Action 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Excitebike 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Excitebike (PAL) 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Exed Exes 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Exerion 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) F1 Race 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Famicom Typing Tutor (Dr PC Jr) 32k PRG / 0k CHR H ---- (0) Famicom Typing Tutor 2 32k PRG / 0k CHR H ---- (0) Field Combat 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Flappy 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Formation Z 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Four Card Games 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Front Line 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Galaga (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Galaxian 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Galg 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Game Genie 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Geimos 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Golf 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Gomoku Narabe 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Gyrodine 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Hogan's Alley 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Hydlide 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Hydlide (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Hyper Olympic 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Hyper Olympic - Tonosoma Edition32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Hyper Sports 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Ice Climber 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Ice Climber (disk conversion) 32k PRG / 0k CHR H ---- (0) - (uses .sav file to load) Ice Hockey 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Ice Hockey (disk coversion) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) - (uses .sav file to load) Igo Sinan 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Ikki 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Joust 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Karateka 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Kinniku Man 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Kung-Fu 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Lode Runner (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Lot Lot 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Lunar Ball 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Mach Rider 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Macross 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Mag Max (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Mappy 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Mario Bros 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Mighty Bomb Jack (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Millipede 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Ms. Pac-Man 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Naitou 9 Dan Shogi Hiden 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Ninja Kun 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Nuts and Milk 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Obake no Qtarou 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Onyanko Town 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Othello (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Othello (Disk conversion) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) (Loads using .sav file) Pac-Land 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Pac-Man 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Pac-Man (Unlicensed Version) 16k PRG / 8k CHR J ---- (0) Pac-Man (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Pachicom 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Penguin Kun Wars 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Pinball 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Poo-Yan 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Popeye 16k PRG / 8K CHR V ---- (0) Popeye Eigo Asobi 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Portpia Renzoku Satsujin Jiken 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Pyramid 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Raid on Bungling Bay 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Raid on Bungling Bay (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Road Fighter 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Robot Block (Stack-Up) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Robot Gyro (Gyromite) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Route 16 Turbo 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Seicross 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Seicross (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Sky Destroyer 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Slalom 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Slalom (PAL) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Soccer 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Soccer (Disk Conversion) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) (uses a .sav to load) Son Son 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Space Invaders 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Spartan X 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Spelunker (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Spy Vs. Spy (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Sqoon (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Star Force (J) 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Star Gate 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Star Luster 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Super Arabian 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Super Dynamix Badminton 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Super Mario Bros 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Super Mario Bros (PAL) 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Super Mario Bros (Disk Conv.) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) (loads using a .sav) Tag Team Pro Wrestling 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Tag Team Wrestling 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Tennis 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Thexder 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Tower of Druaga, The 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Twinbee (Disk Conversion) 32k PRG / 0k CHR H ---- (0) (loads using .sav file) Urban Champion 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Volguard 2 32k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Volleyball (Disk Conversion) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) (loads with .sav) Warpman 16k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Wild Gunman 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Wrecking Crew 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Xevious (J) 32k PRG / 8k CHR H ---- (0) Yie-Ar Kung-Fu 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Yo Nin Uti Majyan 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) Zippy Race 16k PRG / 8k CHR V ---- (0) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
atarilovesyou #20 Posted September 10, 2018 I dont really have the knowledge to answer such a question, but rather than get into a tech debate: what game title would be the pinnacle of NES graphical capability without the help from the MM chips? Any guesses? I would think Life Force would be in there. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Gemintronic #21 Posted September 10, 2018 I dont really have the knowledge to answer such a question, but rather than get into a tech debate: what game title would be the pinnacle of NES graphical capability without the help from the MM chips? Any guesses? I would think Life Force would be in there. Life Force appears to be mapper 2. Basically, anything on the list I just posted should be no hardware assist. Mapper 2 games: https://nesdir.github.io/mapper2.html Also found another no mapper chip list on that same site: https://nesdir.github.io/mapper0.html 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+phoenixdownita #22 Posted September 10, 2018 At least the designers of the NES were forward looking and made it possible to add complex mappers that can assist in Gfx tasks. Audio is usually easy, just have a pin (or a couple for stereo) to allow the cart to mix-in extra channels, but for Gfx you have to think about it. Atari and Sega were usually lagging in that dept, the VDP/PPU bus was mostly "hidden" so to speak making it very hard to easily extend the Gfx capabilities. Take the SegaCD, the poor thing had to render in its own memory then everything had to be copied to the Genny VDP mem to be rendered to screen .... not efficient. For the 32X they went the analogue mixing way ... again not exactly the easier way to go about it (plus the extra cabling on the back). 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jess Ragan #23 Posted September 10, 2018 Looking at that list of early titles, Nintendo would have been in big, big trouble if they hadn't used mappers in their later games. The technological gap between something like Clu Clu Land and a more substantial NES title like Castlevania III is pretty vast. It's almost as if they were released during two different console generations. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
empsolo #24 Posted September 10, 2018 Looking at that list of early titles, Nintendo would have been in big, big trouble if they hadn't used mappers in their later games. The technological gap between something like Clu Clu Land and a more substantial NES title like Castlevania III is pretty vast. It's almost as if they were released during two different console generations.They sort of were. The Famicom was designed from the get go to be augmented with addons to improve upon the game playing experience as time marched on and new genres were developed. The Famicom Disk System was developed almost in conjunction with the Famicom as avenue for giving new life to the system by 1985. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
atarilovesyou #25 Posted September 10, 2018 Life Force appears to be mapper 2. Basically, anything on the list I just posted should be no hardware assist. Mapper 2 games: https://nesdir.github.io/mapper2.html Also found another no mapper chip list on that same site: https://nesdir.github.io/mapper0.html Gotcha...wow, that list reads like a 500-in-1 multicart, lol. I can't say that any if them really stands out graphically...my guess then goes with SMB. Just for the sheer variety and gaming mechanics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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