WILL CLOAK AND DAGGER EVER GET FINISHED?

[Neogeoman]

16 hours ago, kiwilove said:

This was posted in the 8-bit Atari forum

 

And no, it didn't get finished or anywhere near it...

 

Harvey

With all the homebrewing going on hopefully we'll be lucky enough to have someone pick this up and finish one day...

[bradhig1]

I don't think it will happen any sooner then Swordquest Airworld gets finished.

[7800]

I recently saw footage of the 5200 C&D prototype. It's not bad, and looks more or less like the arcade game. Is it possible for the 5200 to handle all the cut scenes, title screen, intro, etc.?? If not, maybe if this were made for the 7800 instead, it could be a lot closer to the arcade game. Of course it would need to have dual controller capabilities like Robotron.

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 2/18/2020 at 10:18 PM, classicgamer74 said:

The C&D arcade game was pretty intense and I would love to see a port of it. I think it would only work on the 5200 as opposed to any other vintage system. This game can be added to the list of 5200 games that we'd like to see finished like Black Belt. With the large amount of memory available with the 5200 I'd like to see more retro arcade ports as well. 

 

This is one of my all-time favourite arcade games, and also one of my most-wanted home conversions.  If anyone starts taking this on seriously, I'd recommend that they look carefully at both the maps and code for the arcade game: there were a number of things hidden in there that would make a home port absolutely stellar.

 

One of the stupidest things I ever did was to sell my dedicated Cloak & Dagger cabinet.  That game went from 'nobody cares' to 'OMG SO RARE AND VALUABLULZ!' in a really short period of time.  Don't think I'll ever be able to afford to buy it back, but that's what MAME is for

 

Not gonna hold my breath on it happening, but if it does I'll be happier than a unicorn farting out a rainbow.

Edited December 10, 2020 by x=usr(1536)

[Neogeoman]

23 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

This is one of my all-time favourite arcade games, and also one of my most-wanted home conversions.  If anyone starts taking this on seriously, I'd recommend that they look carefully at both the maps and code for the arcade game: there were a number of things hidden in there that would make a home port absolutely stellar.

 

One of the stupidest things I ever did was to sell my dedicated Cloak & Dagger cabinet.  That game went from 'nobody cares' to 'OMG SO RARE AND VALUABLULZ!' in a really short period of time.  Don't think I'll ever be able to afford to buy it back, but that's what MAME is for

 

Not gonna hold my breath on it happening, but if it does I'll be happier than a unicorn farting out a rainbow.

I just picked up Cloak and Dagger pcbs and a jamma adapter. Just waiting for my supergun and I'm gonna fire it up. Would love to have a 5200 version as it's one of my favorite systems but the more time goes by and see it's not reality. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

13 minutes ago, Neogeoman said:

I just picked up Cloak and Dagger pcbs and a jamma adapter. Just waiting for my supergun and I'm gonna fire it up. Would love to have a 5200 version as it's one of my favorite systems but the more time goes by and see it's not reality. 

 

Out of curiosity, are they the original Cloak & Dagger boards, or the Williams conversion set?

 

You may already be aware of this, but figured I'd mention it anyway: neither version of Cloak & Dagger is JAMMA.  It'll either be a unique pinout if it's the dedicated version, or the same as Defender (IIRC) uses depending on which boardset you have.

[Lynxpro]

I'm just going to mention here that it was Dave Comstock who was assigned the duties of making Cloak & Dagger for Atari 8-bit and the 5200 back in the day. He has the source code. He's also started and stopped several times trying to finish it.

 

You can listen to his 2 part interview in the Antic Atari Podcast.

 

He seems to have gotten frustrated over the lack of Dual POKEYs and RAM and graphical limitations of A8 versus the original arcade hardware. It would be great if someone could tell him about options like POKEY Max  or the Dual POKEY hardware upgrades so he could map a second POKEY into the code. Perhaps that would get him over his frustrations. Although he also said in the interview that he's kept busy with his professional duties still.

[+x=usr(1536)]

5 hours ago, Lynxpro said:

I'm just going to mention here that it was Dave Comstock who was assigned the duties of making Cloak & Dagger for Atari 8-bit and the 5200 back in the day. He has the source code. He's also started and stopped several times trying to finish it.

 

You can listen to his 2 part interview in the Antic Atari Podcast.

 

He seems to have gotten frustrated over the lack of Dual POKEYs and RAM and graphical limitations of A8 versus the original arcade hardware. It would be great if someone could tell him about options like POKEY Max  or the Dual POKEY hardware upgrades so he could map a second POKEY into the code. Perhaps that would get him over his frustrations. Although he also said in the interview that he's kept busy with his professional duties still.

 

While his frustrations are understandable, it's difficult to say how much interest there would be in a game that requires additional hardware in order to be able to play it.

 

Maybe doing an enhanced mode or similar if a second POKEY (or equivalent) is detected would be an option, but there's not much that can be done about the A8's graphics modes.

[Neogeoman]

23 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

Out of curiosity, are they the original Cloak & Dagger boards, or the Williams conversion set?

 

You may already be aware of this, but figured I'd mention it anyway: neither version of Cloak & Dagger is JAMMA.  It'll either be a unique pinout if it's the dedicated version, or the same as Defender (IIRC) uses depending on which boardset you have.

The boards are original, they are actually stamped Agent X on them so they may be an earlier run. Also I was able to get a custom made adapter with a built in sound amplifier made specifically for those boards and this game that converts it to jamma.

[+x=usr(1536)]

30 minutes ago, Neogeoman said:

The boards are original, they are actually stamped Agent X on them so they may be an earlier run. Also I was able to get a custom made adapter with a built in sound amplifier made specifically for those boards and this game that converts it to jamma.

 

Gotcha.  FWIW, it's believed that all dedicated Cloak & Dagger PCBs had the 'Agent X' name silkscreened onto them.  Apparently the name change came about to tie in with the movie, but the PCBs had already been printed with the prototype name.  Atari just used them as-is.

Edited December 12, 2020 by x=usr(1536)

[Lynxpro]

On 12/11/2020 at 5:03 AM, x=usr(1536) said:

 

While his frustrations are understandable, it's difficult to say how much interest there would be in a game that requires additional hardware in order to be able to play it.

 

 

 

Because people in the homebrew retro scene do not purchase hardware upgrades and enhancements. Right. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Lynxpro

[Supergun]

41 minutes ago, Lynxpro said:

 

Because people in the homebrew retro scene do not purchase hardware upgrades and enhancements. Right. 

But your kind of missing his point.

 

A 5200 Cloak & Dagger cartridge would be like a 2600 Pitfall 3 or an NES Super Mario 4 or Zelda 3. Every system owner would want one and it would sell like hot cakes. But if it’s unplayable out of the box on a stock system, you alienate the vast majority of the user base.

 

It’s 2020. Cartridge memory limitations are in the distant past. And we’ve seen what talented programmers can do on the 2600. Literally making games that are superior to their 5200 & 7800 counterparts. So it is more then possible to make an impressive Atari 5200 version of Cloak & Dagger.

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, Lynxpro said:

Because people in the homebrew retro scene do not purchase hardware upgrades and enhancements. Right. 

 

If that really was your takeaway from what I wrote, I can only but commend you for missing the mark entirely.

 

45 minutes ago, Supergun said:

A 5200 Cloak & Dagger cartridge would be like a 2600 Pitfall 3 or an NES Super Mario 4 or Zelda 3. Every system owner would want one and it would sell like hot cakes. But if it’s unplayable out of the box on a stock system, you alienate the vast majority of the user base.

 

Precisely.  If it's a case of, "this game only works with an Atarimax," it's difficult to tell how many people would be interested in shelling out an additional $130 on top of their system costs, the game's cost, etc. just to play it.  Sure, the Atarimax allows more than just playing one additional game, but the point is that a $60 cartridge is an easier value proposition to sell compared to a $130 peripheral.

 

45 minutes ago, Supergun said:

It’s 2020. Cartridge memory limitations are in the distant past. And we’ve seen what talented programmers can do on the 2600. Literally making games that are superior to their 5200 & 7800 counterparts. So it is more then possible to make an impressive Atari 5200 version of Cloak & Dagger.

 

Ignoring the fact that it's a 7800 game, taking Rikki & Vikki as an example shows what can be accomplished on a stock system with clever use of additional hardware in a cartridge.  If someone took that approach to Cloak and Dagger and got it out there at the $60-ish price point and was able to get it to run on a stock system, that would be difficult to turn down.

[Lynxpro]

1 hour ago, Supergun said:

But your kind of missing his point.

 

A 5200 Cloak & Dagger cartridge would be like a 2600 Pitfall 3 or an NES Super Mario 4 or Zelda 3. Every system owner would want one and it would sell like hot cakes. But if it’s unplayable out of the box on a stock system, you alienate the vast majority of the user base.

 

It’s 2020. Cartridge memory limitations are in the distant past. And we’ve seen what talented programmers can do on the 2600. Literally making games that are superior to their 5200 & 7800 counterparts. So it is more then possible to make an impressive Atari 5200 version of Cloak & Dagger.

 

I'm not missing any points. I'm poking holes through them.

 

"Hot cakes". Really? The 5200 is a 38 year old console. It won't "alienate the vast majority of the user base". The current "vast majority" of 5200 owners that still use them and are not selling them on eBay after discovering them in their attics already mod their consoles with A/V Mods, controller mods, etc. It wouldn't alienate anyone. Look at the Colecovision and all of the latest titles for it that requires the Super Game Module that includes an extra sound chip and extra RAM. They always sell out of that with each production run.

 

And as for cartridge memory limitations, let's see you develop a 1 Megabyte ROM cartridge for the 5200 then. You still can't easily do RAM inside a 5200 cartridge because the cartridge slot doesn't have the lines accessible for it like the 7800 does. Hence the need for an internal RAM upgrade.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Lynxpro

[Lynxpro]

36 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

If that really was your takeaway from what I wrote, I can only but commend you for missing the mark entirely.

 

 

Precisely.  If it's a case of, "this game only works with an Atarimax," it's difficult to tell how many people would be interested in shelling out an additional $130 on top of their system costs, the game's cost, etc. just to play it.  Sure, the Atarimax allows more than just playing one additional game, but the point is that a $60 cartridge is an easier value proposition to sell compared to a $130 peripheral.

 

 

Ignoring the fact that it's a 7800 game, taking Rikki & Vikki as an example shows what can be accomplished on a stock system with clever use of additional hardware in a cartridge.  If someone took that approach to Cloak and Dagger and got it out there at the $60-ish price point and was able to get it to run on a stock system, that would be difficult to turn down.

 

No. You just don't know what you're talking about. You can't compare a 7800 cartridge to a 5200 cartridge because the 7800 was designed to be able to support external CPUs, external sound chips, and external RAM through its cartridge slot. The 5200 wasn't. So what Rikki & Vikki can do on a 7800 is not applicable or comparable to what can or can't be done with a 5200.

[+x=usr(1536)]

9 minutes ago, Lynxpro said:

 

No. You just don't know what you're talking about. You can't compare a 7800 cartridge to a 5200 cartridge because the 7800 was designed to be able to support external CPUs, external sound chips, and external RAM through its cartridge slot. The 5200 wasn't. So what Rikki & Vikki can do on a 7800 is not applicable or comparable to what can or can't be done with a 5200.

 

Really?  The 7800 and 5200 are completely different systems with massively-different architectures?  I had no idea!

 

Thanks for letting me know.  Next time, try doing it without the condescending attitude.

 

Oh, and by the way, you may want to go over the specs of the Atarimax Cartridge for the 5200 before making sweeping pronouncements.

Edited December 13, 2020 by x=usr(1536)

[Lynxpro]

12 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

Really?  The 7800 and 5200 are completely different systems with massively-different architectures?  I had no idea!

 

Thanks for letting me know.  Next time, try doing it without the condescending attitude.

 

Oh, and by the way, you may want to go over the specs of the Atarimax Cartridge for the 5200 before making sweeping pronouncements.

 

I own an AtariMax SD Cart, thank you very much. It tackles what you are alluding to much differently than just cramming RAM into a cartridge and expecting the 5200 to be able to address it. But hey, go ahead and design a PCB for the 5200 with RAM crammed onto it and see how far you get.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Lynxpro

[+x=usr(1536)]

8 minutes ago, Lynxpro said:

 

I own an AtariMax SD Cart, thank you very much. It tackles what you are alluding to much differently than just cramming RAM into a cartridge and expecting the 5200 to be able to address it. But hey, go ahead and design a PCB for the 5200 with RAM crammed onto it and see how far you get.

 

Go back and re-read what I wrote.  At no point did I propose any of what you're talking about, and, frankly, have no idea where you've come up with the idea that I did.

[Supergun]

1 hour ago, Lynxpro said:

 

I'm not missing any points. I'm poking holes through them.

 

"Hot cakes". Really? The 5200 is a 38 year old console. It won't "alienate the vast majority of the user base". The current "vast majority" of 5200 owners that still use them and are not selling them on eBay after discovering them in their attics already mod their consoles with A/V Mods, controller mods, etc. It wouldn't alienate anyone. Look at the Colecovision and all of the latest titles for it that requires the Super Game Module that includes an extra sound chip and extra RAM. They always sell out of that with each production run.

 

And as for cartridge memory limitations, let's see you develop a 1 Megabyte ROM cartridge for the 5200 then. You still can't easily do RAM inside a 5200 cartridge because the cartridge slot doesn't have the lines accessible for it like the 7800 does. Hence the need for an internal RAM upgrade.

This isn’t about “me” doing anything here. There is no “let’s see you develop...” to be directed towards me. I’m the gamer, not the programmer. I’m not developing or programming anything. I have no clue how it can be done. And I never claimed to either.

 

But, I don’t have to. Because it’s not my problem to figure out. Some programmer (wether it ends up being the current one or another one) will eventually do so. That much I can guarantee you. And you yourself even say as much in your own words: “...you still can’t easily do RAM inside a 5200 cartridge...” I don’t see the word impossible or cannot be done stated there? I only see “not easy”. Not to mention extra RAM isn’t the only way to accomplish this task. Use a bigger ROM and bank switching like Bounty Bob used. Again, not my department, but rest assured, someone will eventually figure it out.

[kiwilove]

Cloak & Dagger 1983 Atari Mame Retro Arcade Games - YouTube

 

I haven't played this coin-op game nor seen it running in real life - but from what it appears to be like, see above.  I can see it is a lot of work for someone to port it over to the 5200.  It would not be an easy conversion to make.  The 7800 hardware ought to be easier to work with to deliver it close to the coin-op as possible - but still a ton of work is involved with that.

I'm nor overly impressed by the play mechanics of it.  As far as the end player goes - if you're that keen on it - you can simply play it on a MAME emulator and there are any number of platforms you can play this on?

I'm no technie nor programmer - if someone wanted to work on a 5200 conversion - the Atarimax cart route would be the way to go.  No one would buy the Atarimax cart for just the one game, but of course that's not the incentive to get one - but for all of the other homebrews and almost every other 5200 cart title to run off it.  You'll then have access to almost the whole library of 5200 titles - old and new.

As far as expanding the RAM on the 5200 - while it would be nice if someone could complete this work for it.  There is then the task of - there's no games to take advantage of it - and while that now enables a lot more 400/800 etc games to be ported over to the expanded 5200.  There's still the work involved to make that happen.  It is simply not the case that someone will step up and do it.

You are fortunate that various people have already created various homebrews/etc in the way of new games for the 5200 - but that does not mean they will still continue working on new games for the 5200.  Time is precious to everyone.

If you want a specific game to be converted to the 5200 - you could start up a topic for this?  Even if you just break down the game into it's various components and show how the game works - so that a programmer could then quickly understand what is involved - you might start getting someone interested enough to start work on it.  Perhaps?  Perhaps not.  Don't expect someone else to do all the work involved - just for you.

 

Harvey

[Neogeoman]

On 12/11/2020 at 9:26 PM, x=usr(1536) said:

 

Gotcha.  FWIW, it's believed that all dedicated Cloak & Dagger PCBs had the 'Agent X' name silkscreened onto them.  Apparently the name change came about to tie in with the movie, but the PCBs had already been printed with the prototype name.  Atari just used them as-is.

That's good to know, I'm just glad it says Agent X on it, I think its pretty cool as I know that was the original name before Atari tied it into the movie. I'm just happy to own it and cant wait to play it 

[Supergun]

Yes, multicarts and SD carts like the Atarimax are great, and if/when a 5200 version is made available, it will be a quick, easy, and inexpensive way to play the game. However, in this particular situation, with regards to this particular game, an actual physical cartridge with the same exact Cloak & Dagger cart sticker as seen in the movie, is what we’ve dreamed of and yearn for. Nothing else will do!

 

So just like in the movie, put an extra circuit board inside the cartridge (with enhancements like the SNES FX chip) and have the game access those military files when the proper level and score is reached.

[unoclay]

oh man i love that arcade game. wish this would happen.

 

[unoclay]

So wait, the only literal way to play this game is the arcade game (i saw it at Funspot, NH), or emulate it?  Not a single existing home port version ever existed??

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, unoclay said:

So wait, the only literal way to play this game is the arcade game (i saw it at Funspot, NH), or emulate it?  Not a single existing home port version ever existed??

 

Correct.