Hard Drivin’ on the 8 Bits?

[EnderDude]

Since stunt car racer was ported to the Atari 8 bits, Ive been wondering if Hard Drivin would be possible. Of course, if this were going to convert any existing code, it should be based off of the ZX Spectrums, or the CPCs code, and obviously not from the C64. Now, should it use 1 color 2 luminance mode 8, or should it use 4 color graphics mode 15?

[jefffulton]

I would never doubt what the incredible teams of Atari 8bit coders can come up with. I would think that you are right and something like Hard Drivin' is possible given what we have seen with Stunt Car racer.

[jvas]

I don't know what to think. Its is hardly playable even on the 16bit computers/consoles....

[EnderDude]

If the ZX can do it, so can the Atari:

[emkay]

Have a look at the LYNX version. That is the way to go.

[Wrathchild]

the ZX can do it

 

I don't think that is the point... is it actually an enjoyable experience on any platform?

[R0ger]

If anything, the video is a proof ZX actually CAN'T do it.

 

Stunt car racer was good choice for remake, or rather, a port. First the game is good. Second it's ported from C64, which has the same CPU, so most of the code could remain intact.

And third, it's vector based, and does not use many C64 specific tricks. Atari is in theory better suited for this kind of game. The conversion was far from painless, but in the end it is actually faster than original.

 

I don't know about any other such game. It has to be fun on the original platform. The platform must be close enough, ideally 6502 based. And the game must not rely on the specific tricks on that platform.

 

Imho if anything, Atari needs original driving game. Something designed for Atari from ground up, something with modern point of view.

[EnderDude]

Okay, so looking at the specs of the Spectrum, it has a Z80 @ 3.5 MHZ, and the MIPS rate is 1 per 4 MHZ. So, the MIPS of the ZX Spectrum is 0.875. The MIPS of the 6502 microprocessor is 1 per 1 MHZ, and the Atari is @ 1.79 MHZ. So, the MIPS of the Atari is a little more than twice the MIPS of the Spectrum. But hey, MIPS doesn't mean everything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited October 6, 2018 by EnderDude

[Level42]

I don't think that is the point... is it actually an enjoyable experience on any platform?

Only on the arcade machine, and I mean the full size cockpit with force feedback steering wheel. You need that. The steering wheel, the shifter, the pedals.....this, plus the very inventive physics simulation put into the arcade game made it what it is, and even so....many people dont like it as it is too much of a simulation instead of a no brains arcade game.

 

Owned two of them at one point in time.....the force feedback motor was MASSIVE. it actually adjusted the amount of force feedback if the seat was moved up closer to the wheel, expecting kids to have shorter legs....very clever...

 

Theres a lot of horsepower on the arcade PCBs. http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=770 . ..pretty tough job for the limited 8 bit processors to mimic but I dont see the point with joystick control.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Level42

[EnderDude]

...but I dont see the point with joystick control.

Could an ST mouse work?

[emkay]

Okay, so looking at the specs of the Spectrum, it has a Z80 @ 3.5 MHZ, and the MIPS rate is 1 per 4 MHZ. So, the MIPS of the ZX Spectrum is 0.875. The MIPS of the 6502 microprocessor is 1 per 1 MHZ, and the Atari is @ 1.79 MHZ. So, the MIPS of the Atari is a little more than twice the MIPS of the Spectrum. But hey, MIPS doesn't mean everything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You have to keep special thoughts in mind:

This is the Atari community!

This means, everything that looks like C64 is a great thing.

Games have to be build on Sprites with scrolling.

1st or 3rd person /Ego view)games do not fit well, with some exceptions.

Stunt Car Racer is such an exception, because it fulfills "dreams" of some people, as it looks like a C64 game and runs just faster.

It is not allowed to change the game to some better features of the Atari, because no one wants to have the game more playable , if the game looks weaker on a still image.

 

That's one of those points, why today a "Doom" somehow exists on every old platform, but not on the Atari.

 

 

.....

 

 

Keeping in Mind that actually a similar feature of the C64 ended up in the Atari version of Stunt Car Racer, the Atari HAS a small feature to enhance the speed of such games.

It's been used in many "hits" on the Atari:

-Star Raiders

-Gyruss

-Rescue on Fractalus

...

 

-Yoomp!

-Time Pilot

 

 

 

It's about "MIPS", if you also keep in mind that you have CPU clocks available for pixels on the Screen.

And, it's only the "ANTIC D" mode that offers the most CPU speed for calculations and the projected pixels on the screen.

 

160x120 seems not a high resolution, but having a sneak peek on Wolf 3D on the PC, that game is based on that low resolution, just using more colors.

 

 

 

So, to ask for a game like this one, is like walking on a strange planet, if you understand

[Sheddy]

That's damned impressive full 3d polys for a Spectrum or any 8 bit in terms of speed. However, "walkthrough" does seem the correct description.

[emkay]

That's damned impressive full 3d polys for a Spectrum or any 8 bit in terms of speed. However, "walkthrough" does seem the correct description.

Particular the C64 version of Stunt Car Racer shows also that the drawing speed is a big limitation there. The additional "little better" speed, makes the game playable on the Atari.

 

Using the "Speccy" version with the Atari benefits of "Antic D" will show something.

But, if no one gives it a chance, there will be no examples.

The Lynx has some 3D zoom features and a 4MHz clocked 6502CPU. But there were also limitations for calculated polygons, the Atari doesn't have.

[Irgendwer]

Okay, so looking at the specs of the Spectrum, it has a Z80 @ 3.5 MHZ, and the MIPS rate is 1 per 4 MHZ. So, the MIPS of the ZX Spectrum is 0.875. The MIPS of the 6502 microprocessor is 1 per 1 MHZ, and the Atari is @ 1.79 MHZ. So, the MIPS of the Atari is a little more than twice the MIPS of the Spectrum. But hey, MIPS doesn't mean everything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Take away the DMA load of Antic, the DRAM refresh and the numbers will shrink substantially:

 

 

Particular the C64 version of Stunt Car Racer shows also that the drawing speed is a big limitation there.

 

Wrong.

 

The Lynx has some 3D zoom features and a 4MHz clocked 6502CPU. But there were also limitations for calculated polygons, the Atari doesn't have.

 

It has also hardware support for mult and div which makes a huge difference in such games. And even with 4MHz (65SC02 - helps also a bit) and additional hardware support suitable for such a game, I prefer many others titles on that platform and see HD as an interactive slide show without tickling my fun-o-meter (even it is technically impressive).

Edited October 7, 2018 by Irgendwer

[emkay]

Wrong.

Was that needed for you own understanding?

[Lost Dragon]

There were 2 versions of the game in development for the C64, coder quit on original so it was started again and rushed to market:

 

https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/gtw64/hard-drivin-v1/

 

I personally thought the only semi-decent versions of this were on the ST/Amiga and Genesis.

 

Lynx version was awful, oversensitive controls, poor frame rate.

 

 

I've admired A8 conversions of games like Space Harrier and Stunt Car Racer, i just don't see Hard Drivin as a wise choice.

 

C64 coders were looking at taking a different approach when converting Race Drivin

 

https://www.gamesthatwerent.com/gtw64/race-drivin/

Edited October 7, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[emkay]

... i just don't see Hard Drivin as a wise choice.

I'd bet, those words to read, if a game like Rescue on Fractalus had been developed on the C64 first. You know, they even didn't release the Amiga version by missing fps

[Irgendwer]

Was that needed for you own understanding?

 

If you read the SCR thread (I thought you did), you should have noticed that the physics calculation needs more CPU than the drawing operations.

[Irgendwer]

...

it has a Z80 @ 3.5 MHZ, and the MIPS rate is 1 per 4 MHZ. So, the MIPS of the ZX Spectrum is 0.875. The MIPS of the 6502 microprocessor is 1 per 1 MHZ,

...

 

BTW: Where do you have those numbers from? They are wrong. There is no single cycle instruction for the 6502.

 

These are the realistic ones:

 

Zilog Z80: 0.580 MIPS at 4.000 MHz

MOS Technology 6502: 0.430 MIPS at 1.000 MHz

Edited October 7, 2018 by Irgendwer

[Lost Dragon]

I'd bet, those words to read, if a game like Rescue on Fractalus had been developed on the C64 first. You know, they even didn't release the Amiga version by missing fps

I went from the 800XL to the C64 and 1st thing i did on the C64 was track down C64 versions of Dropzone, Elktraglide, Ninja and Rescue On Fractals.

 

Never found any of them to be the same experience i had on the XL.

 

Dropzone was easier.

 

Elktraglide and Ninja weren't as visually vibrant.

 

But they weren't deal breakers.

 

Rescue ran slower and i found boredom set in far quicker on the C64 version.

 

 

I don't feel a game like Hard Drivin is really suited to any home formats, it was best left in the arcades.

 

But if your going to stand a chance at replicating what you can, your looking at hardware with ST levels of performance as a minimum.

 

 

Never understood why commercial teams attempted to bring games like Stun Runner, Hard Drivin or Pitfighter to 8 bit systems.

 

Nor Steel Talons to Lynx or Genesis..

[emkay]

If you read the SCR thread (I thought you did), you should have noticed that the physics calculation needs more CPU than the drawing operations.

That's why the C64 version is almost equal to the speccy version?

[Irgendwer]

That's why the C64 version is almost equal to the speccy version?

 

?

[emkay]

The Question is: "What to do to have coders interested to code on the Atari, using the strength of that machine, and to do the "missing stuff" ...

[R0ger]

I as a coder need demonstration of interest. People talking about different racing games, and how there is shortage of those on Atari, that makes me thing about it.

On the other hand I'm not interested in remakes or ports. Idea that all old games have to be ported to all platforms seem silly to me.

Also I don't consider many old racing games much good, but then I certainly only played fraction of them.

 

What I want to say is I like the discussion about what games are good on what platforms, what people like on them, and that makes me thinking about my own racing game. But than that's the same for platform games (remember the Sam's Journey discussion), or basically any other genre

[Level42]

Could an ST mouse work?

That would be one tiny step better, but a paddle would be even better. IIRC HD had a pot steering wheel (because the steering wheel cannot spin endlessly, like a real car). You could make a steering wheel with a pot to mimic this.

 

But....the thing is that this is one of those games that will always be only a shadow of the original game. Have you ever played the arcade machine ? If not, you won’t understand what I’m trying to say.