Hard Drivin’ on the 8 Bits?

[Level42]

I went from the 800XL to the C64 and 1st thing i did on the C64 was track down C64 versions of Dropzone, Elktraglide, Ninja and Rescue On Fractals.

Never found any of them to be the same experience i had on the XL.

Dropzone was easier.

Elktraglide and Ninja weren't as visually vibrant.

But they weren't deal breakers.

Rescue ran slower and i found boredom set in far quicker on the C64 version.

I don't feel a game like Hard Drivin is really suited to any home formats, it was best left in the arcades.

But if your going to stand a chance at replicating what you can, your looking at hardware with ST levels of performance as a minimum.

Never understood why commercial teams attempted to bring games like Stun Runner, Hard Drivin or Pitfighter to 8 bit systems.

Nor Steel Talons to Lynx or Genesis..

You should,read,what Archer McLean wrote about the C64 version vs, the original Atari version of Dropzone

 

The reason why they tried was simple....making money on the famous arcade name.

But I totally agree with you, with the exception f S.T.U.N. runner for the Lynx which is actually a decent port. But all the others you are right. Also on Hard Drivin.....it never worked on anything else than the original arcade machine.

In fact....when I first actually encountered a HD machine (must have been at Fun Spot) I had quite low expectations of it BECAUSE I had tried two home conversions and thought they were awful.

 

But I was very positively surprised, As the marquee already indicates, it was the first true simulation of a racing car, not a typical racing arcade game. It was maybe too realistic for most players but with some tries you understand and feel the carl. Its simply impossible to capture that feeling with an underpowered machine with a joystick control...

Edited October 8, 2018 by Level42

[Lost Dragon]

Remember Archer talking about the A8 version in Zzap64, saying the A8 was the Porsche of the 8 bit computers, A8 Dropzone written in less code and how you should use the C64 version to prepare yourself for the Atari version.

 

Regarding Stun Runner, i meant the likes of the C64, Amstrad CPC and ZX Spectrum.

 

The C64 struggled with games like Elite, Star Wars, StarGlider.

 

Carrier Command was done in a top down 2D view.

 

CPU just far too slow.

 

Battle Command was about as impressive as it got and that wasn't a game that relied on it's sheer sense of speed to impress.

 

Coder of Lynx version totally understood you had to replication the arcades essence as beneath the visuals there's really not much of a game, (but it's a coin op..not designed to do anything but draw you in for short term plays) and sensibly used the lynx hardware to mimic the look of the hardware with sprite rings as it were, rather than try and do it in polygons.

[Level42]

I as a coder need demonstration of interest. People talking about different racing games, and how there is shortage of those on Atari, that makes me thing about it.

On the other hand I'm not interested in remakes or ports. Idea that all old games have to be ported to all platforms seem silly to me.

Also I don't consider many old racing games much good, but then I certainly only played fraction of them.

 

What I want to say is I like the discussion about what games are good on what platforms, what people like on them, and that makes me thinking about my own racing game. But than that's the same for platform games (remember the Sam's Journey discussion), or basically any other genre

For me, the best racing game on any classic home system is Vrooom.

(I only know the ST version).

 

This has such an incredible feel of speed......and EVEN with joystick control it still gives you a good “feeling” of the car.

It is still my favourite racing game on home systems ever.

 

Now,...converting this from ST/Amiga would be cool but also damn hard and I bet it will never play as fluently.

 

The best feel of speed for me on A8 was Elektraglide but I hated that it wasn’t a real racing game with other cars to overtake.sure it was innovative to think of other objects but they often felt unfair as they sometimes are unavaidoable.

Love the tunnels on it though....very well done esp. with the sounds changes.

Maybe Elektraglide would be a nice “platform” to make a real good racer ?

 

On the other hand....have a look at Checkered flag on the Lynx. This is one of those games that go “unnoticed” but it’s a pretty decent racer. The only real flaw it has is that all tracks are always flat, but this seems to be the standard for 8 bits racers.

 

It was only until Vrooom that I saw good working and fast tracks with hills.

[Lost Dragon]

Not being a strict racing fan per say, Elktraglide (once you set the sensitivity of the controls to personal taste) worked so well for myself because it was something different and used the host hardware to great effect.

 

When i moved to the C64, i found Super Cycle to be ok, Pitstop II was delightfully vicious in 2 Player mode, but boring played solo.

 

 

I think it needs to be asked what the real aim of trying to bring Hard Drivin to the A8 would be?.

 

That if it had been attempted around the same time as the C64 version it would of been better?.

 

That's not saying a lot as C64 CPU poorly suited to games of this type and we only say 1 of 2 coders attempts and we know it was rushed to market.

 

If it's just to be a technical showcase, would a playable demo not be enough?.

 

I only ask as the coin op relied on it's polygon 3D, steering wheel and pedals set up.

 

It was supposed to offer realism having started out as a driving simulation, your not going to recreate that on any 8 bit system and much was lost on the 16 bit console and computer versions.

 

This seems to be a let's see how it could be done, rather than it needs to be done as the A8 is crying out for a conversion of it, as it never had 1 at the time.

[Gunstar]

I'd much rather see something sprite/2D based like the good-old Pole Position than slow 3D racing/driving games. E-Type port to the A8 from the BBC is an excellent example, but I think the A8 can still do better. I'd much rather see a game like Lotus Turbo Challenge or Crazy Cars 3 from the ST/Amiga ported than Hard Drive'in. Or not even ports of those games, but a game very much like them using the A8's own strengths written from the ground up. We've got enough of games like TGACCRR or California Run too, where you are just racing the clock really and there's no real racing involved, which is what E-Type does too, just better. I say forget Hard Drive'in, forget Test Drive, and let's make something with other opponents and cops chasing you like Crasy Cars 3 or newer , similar racers like The Need For Speed, which is really an updated Crazy Cars 3 anyway...hell, even Pole Position isn't a real racing game, it's just another race against the clock/how many cars can you pass, like TGACCRR or California run, just set on a track instead of the open road. We need a REAL racing/driving game with opponent drivers, either A.I., human opponent or both. The only games we have like that are very poorly implemented motorcycle racing games like Speed King and what was that other one called?

Edited October 8, 2018 by Gunstar

[Lost Dragon]

I look at what was considered very impressive 3D on the C64 and a conversion many thought not possible, espically after how the earlier Carrier Command had turned out:

 

 

I respect what was achieved, that's some clever coding going on there, but it's still a pale copy of the Amiga or ST versions.

 

 

Same with Lynx Steel Talons..far more responsive controls than Lynx Hard Drivin, but a frame rate of what?

 

3-5 FPS?

 

I just cannot see the A8 doing the 3D or realistic physics that made Hard Drivin stand out.

 

Now an update or sequel to this on the A8. ..that'd be most welcome:

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[EnderDude]

Flight Simulator 2, or Tomahawk anyone? Don't those 2 games use polygons?

[Lost Dragon]

Flight Simulator 2, or Tomahawk anyone? Don't those 2 games use polygons?

https://youtu.be/DBn8d-_C2Mc

[atarilovesyou]

If the ZX can do it, so can the Atari: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHGkHlmebbo

Woooooow...that is just horrible. Who in their right mind would subject themselves to such an experience? Gah.

[EnderDude]

Woooooow...that is just horrible. Who in their right mind would subject themselves to such an experience? Gah.

People back in the day apparently loved it for the simulation being realistic: http://live.worldofspectrum.org/infoseek/magazines/sinclair-user/94#36

[Bill Loguidice]

Woooooow...that is just horrible. Who in their right mind would subject themselves to such an experience? Gah.

 

I think it's important to frame these things in the context of the times. We can appreciate that it's crap now, but back then it was sometimes enough just to impress from a technological standpoint, even if the game experience itself wasn't that great. With that in mind, I guess I can understand the challenge from a programming standpoint, but I don't really see the desire to port this to the Atari 8-bit, or, as was stated, really any 8- or 16-bit platform. Too many compromises for what amounts to a mediocre game, arguably even in the original arcade version. It was an early simulation, and we've obviously advanced well beyond that technology or being impressed by that concept.

[Wrathchild]

Flight Simulator 2, or Tomahawk anyone? Don't those 2 games use polygons?

 

Yes, they both exist on the A8 & Yes they do, i.e. have objects made of 3 or more lines and possibly filled.

 

What's the actual question / point for asking?

[youxia]

Woooooow...that is just horrible. Who in their right mind would subject themselves to such an experience? Gah.

 

Me, for one. Back in the day this was the cutting edge. Plus, it's not that bad anyway, quite playable actually, and the crash replays were a great feature too. And I've seen many people playing similar slideshows on underpowered modern rigs, let's say Crysis or The Witcher 3, and still saying "it's fine".

[R0ger]

Checking the game on C64 ..

Looks like porting it in Stunt car racer fashion would be simple. Simpler that SCR, as clearly no attributes are used for 3D graphics. And again, I would expect it would be little faster compared to C64.

But let me tell you, I would not play it.

[miker]

Yeah. It looks pretty uplayable.

 

Some combination of Pole position and Lotus could be better.

[Gunstar]

Stunt Car Racer for the A8 has an acceptable frame rate to me, and from what I recall, close to what the Amiga and ST versions pulled off, If other 3D game ports can do as well, then that's o.k., but anything less, like aforementioned Flight Simulator 2 is horrid and unplayable to me...Tomahawk is a bit better, as is mercenary, but I tell you, I can't wait to get a Rapidus and play these games at a decent frame rate for a change.For that matter, I can't wait to play SCR on the Rapidus too!

 

But really, any 3D game that requires a Rapidus to play at a decent frame rate, unless already made, should just be forgotten. Let's do some good 2D racers as I mentioned above instead, and stop wasting time talking about sucky games like Hard Drive'n or Test Drive on the A8...why even bring them up when there are great 2D/psuedo 3D racers that actually could be done well, again, like Crazy Cars III or Lotus Turbo I mentioned above!

 

I'm not saying forget 3D all together either, just 3D games that need a fast frame rate. I'm looking forward to the C64 port of the 3D adventure game Total Eclipse, that should work well as I don't mind a slow frame rate with 3D on a game like that, just not on racing/flying type 3D games that need a good frame rate to be playable.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Gunstar

[_The Doctor__]

with all the different versions shown, an Atari version might just end up being the 'Most Playable' version but who knows we could be surprised - stranger thing happen, and have!

 

With all that being said much better and easier to do versions of other racers might be a great warm up. I'd certainly love the best done versions of a handful a racers. A combination or the best ones sounds like a wonderful idea!

Edited October 8, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[Lost Dragon]

People back in the day apparently loved it for the simulation being realistic: http://live.worldofspectrum.org/infoseek/magazines/sinclair-user/94#36

The Games Machine's 90% review is a bit suspect, talks about monochrome sprites..

 

Game is done in solid 3D.

 

People should be aware Domark paid UK Press to place a lot of adverts for the game in all the popular magazines at the time.

 

Last thing magazines like to do is upset advertisers.

 

The unreleased NES version is the most impress 8 bit version:

 

 

https://youtu.be/_kwO5HLvwEA

 

 

And how that was achieved:

 

 

http://www.lostlevels.org/hard-drivin/

Edited October 8, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[_The Doctor__]

Funny enough, Atari was doing that for NES... (tengen) and in the second link you can find something to download it to try out for yourself... both in the page and at the bottom, better try to run it on real hardware... no where near complete either...

Edited October 8, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[emkay]

The unreleased NES version is the most impress 8 bit version:

Sometimes one need to take a deep breath, before writing

 

The NES Version may not be that impressive, as there is a lot missing what's in the terms of 3D .

 

But it shows clearly, what always had to be used for such games:

Finding the right way of giving the Player the feeling of 3D , using the most what the machine can offer for the presentation.

The C64 Version of Stunt Car Racer shows, how the character mode can enhance the speed of a game, looking like the CPU is as double as fast than it really is.

The Atari has almost the same "CPU power" as the NES. Using Antic Mode D leaves approximately 1.5MHz for calculations.

Then , one weak point of the Atari is the amount of moving objects on the screen. Well , there is just the ego view/ 1st person view, which offers to use the PMg for a lot of objects on the screen.

And, as Mode D means to have only the half screen to handle, compared to the NES ... less screen handling offers more time for 3D calculations.

 

Polygons have been created in the half time , necessary, additional objects, like bridges, could be done with PMg.

 

The only rule for using the low resolution (and having it looking impressive) was, NOT to use just outlined polygons. They have to be filled with solid colors.

Edited October 9, 2018 by emkay

[Lost Dragon]

The NES version might lack a lot of the 3D from the likes of say the ZX Spectrum or C64 versions, but at least the sacrifice has been done in order to ensure there is something resembling a sense of speed when your travelling.

 

The other 8 bit versions seem to mimic driving a milk float.

 

Not sure if CPC version has been mentioned:

 

 

Talk of how you could do the graphics on the A8 is great,but what about the realistic physics, how much of that is going to be lost?.

 

Hard Driving was more than just it's 3D.

 

The prospect of A8 Hard Drivin reminds me of Lynx Steel Talons somewhat.

 

Everyone seemed to agree it was an improvement over the coders previous game (Hard Drivin), controls a lot more sensible, but it still wasn't a version i found fun to play,with a single figure frame rate.

 

And as a conversion it lacked features from the coin op such as 2 player mode,fuel limits etc.

 

Back then i had to accept serious comprises to coin op conversions as the gulf between coin op and home hardware was huge.

 

I love seeing what folks can achieve on the A8 these days,but when it comes to conversions,i think a lot of people would rather see an end result that they can invest time in and enjoy playing, rather than look at, discuss how it was created and say well it ran faster than the C64 or CPC version.

[Lost Dragon]

Going back to the opening post in this thread, it's clear a very important aspect has been over looked.

 

8 bit Stunt Car Racer wasn't just a technical marvel in terms of what it achived, it was bloody great fun on the 8 bit systems.

 

 

Hard Drivin by comparison simply wasn't.

 

In fact in a lot of cases it was bloody wretched.

 

Using code from say the C64 or ZX Spectrum version and maybe getting a few more frames per second on the screen, isn't magically going to turn this into Stunt Car Racer 2.0 on the A8.

 

Sorry to sound harsh, but it's really as simple as yes, i have no doubt the coding wizards in the A8 community, given enough time and resources, could make this happen, but would it really be a deserving project at the end of it?.

[Gunstar]

Checking the game on C64 ..

Looks like porting it in Stunt car racer fashion would be simple. Simpler that SCR, as clearly no attributes are used for 3D graphics. And again, I would expect it would be little faster compared to C64.

But let me tell you, I would not play it.

I wouldn't play the game with a decent frame-rate, it's still boring as hell on any home system. But IF someone does an A8 version, for the sake of others, use better colors than these God-awful C64 , CPC and Spectrum colors!

Edited October 9, 2018 by Gunstar

[emkay]

Amen

[Lord Thag]

This game is just not all that fun, in my opinion. I played the arcade and all of the home versions back in the day. It was a bit of a one trick pony, and honestly, Pole Position was way more *fun* even if it's much older. This had it's 20 minutes due to having early 3d graphics. The gameplay is really slow and basic, even on the arcade machine.

If we're gonna do 3d, how about something with some legs like Elite? I'd play that for years.