CollectorVision Phoenix Kickstarter is now live!

[NIAD]

Sorry, but I am having difficutly understanding that argument.

 

Matthew is one of the prime developers of the Phoenix, at least according to the Kickstarter page. The Phoenix (from a hardware POV) is basically an F18A-MK2 VDP-replacement but using a larger FPGA in order to emulate the rest of the CV hardware.

 

The Phoenix (a complete console) doesn't somehow compete with a future stand-alone F18A-MK2 (a replacement VDP for existing hardware boards). In my opinion, it is exactly the opposite, because having more F18A-MK2 compatible hardware out there would make it a more attractive target for homebrew, but that's just an opinion.

There is a difference between an answer your question that I gave you and a so called "argument" that you took my response as.

 

Seems from some of your recent posts around here that you have very Trollish tendicies. Are you a Troll?

 

What doesn't make sense about Matthew wanting to release his updated F18a board first in order to try to maximize the amount of sales before allowing a system like the Phoenix to include it freely or via a license agreement with CollectorVision?

 

I assume you also feel that all rom images of new Homebrew game releases should be shared immediately at the time of the physical cartridge release? Never mind, I never assume... so I know you feel that way.

 

Hey TPR... here we go again!

[TPR]

Hey TPR... here we go again!

 

I know... It was so nice that things were very "drama free" for a few days. Why is it so hard to keep it like that?

[elmer]

Seems from some of your recent posts around here that you have very Trollish tendicies. Are you a Troll? ...

Wow, a simple question (still not answered by the development team itself) devolves immediately into a personal attack???

 

 

I know... It was so nice that things were very "drama free" for a few days. Why is it so hard to keep it like that?

OK, goodbye gentlemen, and I wish CollectorVision good luck with their Kickstarter and fanbase.

 

Having retired after 30 years of commercial game development, I was thinking that it might be interesting to write something for the TMS9900 and F18A-MK2 ... but you've both helped to show me that this isn't a community that I should spend any time in. Congratultions on keeping your little bubble safe from the danger of interested newcomers.

[Keatah]

I remember I got ragged on for something Colecovision related a year or two ago. I forget the specifics, but I remember the taste. And it does affect one's perception of the community. And even interest in backing CV related projects that are seemingly being over-promoted. So you're not alone!

[+DZ-Jay]

Wow, a simple question (still not answered by the development team itself) devolves immediately into a personal attack???

 

 

 

OK, goodbye gentlemen, and I wish CollectorVision good luck with their Kickstarter and fanbase.

 

Having retired after 30 years of commercial game development, I was thinking that it might be interesting to write something for the TMS9900 and F18A-MK2 ... but you've both helped to show me that this isn't a community that I should spend any time in. Congratultions on keeping your little bubble safe from the danger of interested newcomers.

 

I know, it seems that NIAD's response was uncalled for. The Oxford dictionary defines "argument" as:

a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong

 

which is precisely the meaning I took from your comment. I understand that English may not be their primary language, but then they are the hosts of this thread and the developers of the hardware in question, so it's on them to maintain civility in the community.

 

NIAD, TPR, gentlemen, you may want to take the chip off your shoulders and not take every comment which is not obviously a pat on the back or a boost to your ego, as an insult. Not everybody is out to tarnish this project or see it fail. Some people have sincere questions and concerns.

 

In any case, elmer, may I invite you to the Intellivision Programming community then? Game programmers are always welcomed and the IntyBASIC compiled language is so much fun and easy that it's making converts of many from all sorts of other platforms. We have our own drama, but it's typically outside the programming threads.

 

-dZ.

[+Dutch Colecovision Fan]

There ya go and your just one person this is my point thank you!!!!!

It is not that I don't trust CollectorVision. I just don't want to give credit card information to Kickstarter. The problem is that I have heard so many times about websites being hacked that I hardly want to use my credit card.

Even PayPall doesn't know that I have one. I simply transfer money from my bank account to PayPall and that's it. I only want to avoid abuse. It's just who I am.

To me it's not a problem to back the project by paying in advance.If the project should fail then CollectorVision can give me my money back and substract all fees

first so CollectorVision won't lose any money.

To all you homebrewers: I really appreciate what you are doing. And I know that's a lot more than I think. Sometimes I wish I could be one of you because

I have always wanted to create a videogame. Cheers and let's all bring Phoenix alive!

[Bmack36]

Just to be clear on a couple of things:

 

-It is perfectly fine to have an issue with the system or bring up potential problems or questions about the system. What I would appreciate though is that if it gets to the point of being a distraction or bickering that it is taken to a different area like DM so that it doesn't take away from the purpose of this thread.

 

-It would also be good if we could refrain from any personal attacks from anyone. If you have a problem with someone lets keep those discussions in private messages.

 

I'm going to post this again. Can we please try to keep the drama out of this thread.

 

It is hard to say whether the Phoenix will support all the features of the MK2. The MK2 has a dedicated 512k SRAM. The Phoenix has the same 512K SRAM but it is not dedicated to just the F18a core. The Phoenix is open source so the features that get added would really be up to Matthew as far as what he wants to include, but as the MK2 is his personal project he would be the one to answer that.

[Ikrananka]

It is not that I don't trust CollectorVision. I just don't want to give credit card information to Kickstarter. The problem is that I have heard so many times about websites being hacked that I hardly want to use my credit card.

Even PayPall doesn't know that I have one. I simply transfer money from my bank account to PayPall and that's it. I only want to avoid abuse. It's just who I am.

To me it's not a problem to back the project by paying in advance.If the project should fail then CollectorVision can give me my money back and substract all fees

first so CollectorVision won't lose any money.

 

I'm not sure if you're aware but this is an "All or nothing" Kickstarter campaign. No money is taken UNLESS the campaign succeeds in reaching its goal. If it doesn't reach its goal then no money is taken from your credit card. Also, don't forget that credit card providers typically give you automatic protection should your credit card be lost or stolen including protection should your card details be stolen via a website hack. In my personal experience I have never had my card details used fraudulently as a result of a website hack. The three occasions that my card was compromised was from using it at retail locations while travelling in the US (this was before the US finally caught up to using chip and pin).

 

Also, note that pre-paid credit cards are accepted by KS (credit must be at least $1 more than your pledge). Downside of this is that if the campaign doesn't reach its goal then you're stuck with having paid a pre-paid credit card fee and also the need to use it up. I'm not sure though if the pre-paid card has to be in US$.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Ikrananka

[digress]

Will the keyboard input allow for full alpha numeric input for a text adventure or graphic adventure that is type & go like king's quest?

[MrBeefy]

It is not that I don't trust CollectorVision. I just don't want to give credit card information to Kickstarter. The problem is that I have heard so many times about websites being hacked that I hardly want to use my credit card.

Even PayPall doesn't know that I have one. I simply transfer money from my bank account to PayPall and that's it. I only want to avoid abuse. It's just who I am.

To me it's not a problem to back the project by paying in advance.If the project should fail then CollectorVision can give me my money back and substract all fees

first so CollectorVision won't lose any money.

To all you homebrewers: I really appreciate what you are doing. And I know that's a lot more than I think. Sometimes I wish I could be one of you because

I have always wanted to create a videogame. Cheers and let's all bring Phoenix alive!

You run into the same potential problem with PayPal getting hacked and someone getting your routing numbers.

 

I would assume it is safer though.

Edited October 29, 2018 by MrBeefy

[Flojomojo]

 

[Hannacek]

I consider CollectorVision to be a zero risk proposition and as such have no hesitation in backing them. It's not the platform (KS) that is the issue here, it's who you choose to back.

 

 

Where are CollectorVision getting the parts? Who is making the tooling and molds and doing the injection molding? Where will the pcbs be manufactured? If the answer to any of those question is China, then there is risk those companies could fail to deliver on their promises. Those companies could produce a faulty product, or not produce anything, and CollectorVision will have no recourse, and no way to get their money back. (If CollectorVision has a legal team, and has connections to people in China, than that changes things). Things can go wrong, especially when they have a fixed budget, and no way to navigate the legal system in China.

 

There is always risk in every Kickstarter. Without the ability to call your credit card company and report the transaction as fraud, there is risk they will not fulfill all the orders. You can't report the transaction as fraud if no product is delivered, because Kickstarter makes no promises that they will actually deliver the product. With Amazon or any other online purchase, you can report the transaction as fraud if you don't receive the item you ordered.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Hannacek

[Greg2600]

Alright, so my main question to you would be: If the Phoenix does become available from an "established retail source" (online or brick-and-mortar) would you purchase one?

 

Beyond this, I do believe that 1000 units will find buyers, but it will probably take a couple of years to reach that milestone, with the help of a few well-known outlets. Just getting the Phoenix on Amazon would provide a boost in sales, although I don't know the basic requirements for selling stuff on Amazon (it probably doesn't work like a low-key flea market where you can sell whatever you want in any quantity you want) so I can't really say if it's realistically feasible or not. Perhaps others can shed some light on that particular subject, for CollectorVision's benefit?

 

As I said, to be honest, maybe not. I probably wouldn't use it. Would love to see it get to that point though.

 

I will say I partially agree with this. However, it is a modern form of investment. Instead of getting a % of sales we get a product instead.

 

I just know I have had good luck with all the stuff I have backed on KS.

 

Yes and no. One of the issues continues to be state of development. The successful ones have had working prototypes but need the capital to produce. That's one thing. Far too often systems, accessories and games have been crowd sourced from day one, and those end up very poorly.

[TPR]

You run into the same potential problem with PayPal getting hacked and someone getting your routing numbers.

 

Yes! This exactly. The reality of the situation here is that NOTHING on the internet is really "safe" but you also have to remember that the odds are in your favor. If you're someone who uses strong passwords, checks your credit card activity on their apps or websites on a regular basis, then you're a "smart consumer" and the chances of any breach being an impact to you is trivial to begin with.

 

Those people who keep saying "I'm not funding it because I don't trust... blah, blah, blah..." is like those people we get on our theme park sites who say they won't go on a roller coaster because they think it is "unsafe" but the reality is you're more likely to get injured driving to a theme park than on a theme park attraction.

 

If you're not going to be at least somewhat trusting of these online systems that have been put into place, especially ones who have a positive reputation, then you probably shouldn't leave your house.

 

If the only excuse someone is using not to fund this is "concerns with Kickstarter" them IMO that's a poor excuse not to fund the project.

[Bill Loguidice]

A big plus with credit cards is that if something happens, it's easy to get it rectified, so no big deal and thus no good excuse not to use some service or another.

 

Nothing is really safe, be it online or in the real world. Just recently I had my business check card skimmed at some store or another that I used it at, but the fraud was quickly caught and the situation easily rectified. Far superior to cash in my opinion, which is why I never carry the stuff.

 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing more details about the plan B once the Kickstarter ends and this doesn't get funded. I still would very much appreciate a system like this, even without a professional case.

[Pixelboy]

If you're not going to be at least somewhat trusting of these online systems that have been put into place, especially ones who have a positive reputation, then you probably shouldn't leave your house.

It's a good thing I like my house...

 

 

If the only excuse someone is using not to fund this is "concerns with Kickstarter" them IMO that's a poor excuse not to fund the project.

Exception caught (user TPR, post 4145158, Line 4): Invalid judgment call.

 

Given how the internet is only "marginally" safe to perform transactions (a certain Edward Snowden would certainly have some comments to post at this point) the act of reducing credit card info disclosure to a bare minimum is something to be respected, not dissed. Haven't you heard enough crazy server hacking stories in the last couple of years?

 

The only thing to consider when "plan B" goes into motion is to remember that for every person who took the time to pledge on KS, there's at least one other person (perhaps more) who will purchase the Phoenix if it's offered via "regular" outlets.

[TPR]

The only thing to consider when "plan B" goes into motion is to remember that for every person who took the time to pledge on KS, there's at least one other person (perhaps more) who will purchase the Phoenix if it's offered via "regular" outlets.

 

I have to be honest, I never expected this many people to be anti-Kickstarter or anti-online credit card use that it would have impacted the Kickstarter campaign this much, but I do feel like it has. I personally don't agree with it because you most certainly could point to a lot of hacking stories, sure, but you most certainly could point to a lot of fatal traffic accidents also but that doesn't stop me from driving my car.

 

That being said, i do hope that text I quoted turns out to be true as I would sure like this system to become a reality and end up getting the funding it needs to be produced properly (injection molded, etc) but I'd still be happy with the unit in a "not ideal, but satisfactory enough to where I wouldn't complain about it" 3D printed case.

[Bill Loguidice]

The only thing to consider when "plan B" goes into motion is to remember that for every person who took the time to pledge on KS, there's at least one other person (perhaps more) who will purchase the Phoenix if it's offered via "regular" outlets.

 

I think we can all agree that something available for immediate purchase should always sell better than something in a pre-order or earlier status. Nevertheless, I think that when the final Kickstarter numbers hit in terms of numbers of supporters for some type of console configuration, that's probably as good of a number as any to use to estimate how many of these will eventually sell. Hopefully those numbers - say 325 people or so - are somehow workable and then that maybe leads to another few hundred or so sales eventually once word spreads about (presumably) how great it is and these are readily available. Whether or not lifetime sales of around 500 units for a system like this is workable, well, I guess that's only up to the CollectorVision team to determine.

[Keatah]

When the Kickstarter fails next week, how long till Plan B comes into effect?

[Flojomojo]

Given how the internet is only "marginally" safe to perform transactions (a certain Edward Snowden would certainly have some comments to post at this point) the act of reducing credit card info disclosure to a bare minimum is something to be respected, not dissed. Haven't you heard enough crazy server hacking stories in the last couple of years?

Meh. My main card has been compromised and replaced multiple times in multiple known breaches (I use it EVERYWHERE, for EVERYTHING), but I've been responsible for zero charges -- I haven't even seen them on my statement, because the bank deals with them first. No big deal.

 

 

The only thing to consider when "plan B" goes into motion is to remember that for every person who took the time to pledge on KS, there's at least one other person (perhaps more) who will purchase the Phoenix if it's offered via "regular" outlets.

I'd say "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Presales are better for project-runners because the money is a sure thing. The inverse is true for buyers.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

I have to be honest, I never expected this many people to be anti-Kickstarter or anti-online credit card use that it would have impacted the Kickstarter campaign this much, but I do feel like it has. I personally don't agree with it because you most certainly could point to a lot of hacking stories, sure, but you most certainly could point to a lot of fatal traffic accidents also but that doesn't stop me from driving my car.

 

That being said, i do hope that text I quoted turns out to be true as I would sure like this system to become a reality and end up getting the funding it needs to be produced properly (injection molded, etc) but I'd still be happy with the unit in a "not ideal, but satisfactory enough to where I wouldn't complain about it" 3D printed case.

 

There is definitely a vocal minority in our community who are against things like the way modern consoles work, crowdfunding platforms, or anything else most of us take for granted as "normal" things, etc., but there's no way it's anywhere near enough to have made a difference for this Kickstarter. No doubt they set that goal because that was the bare minimum needed, but it was only a realistic goal if somehow the campaign had gone viral. Certainly the project is worthy of viral status, but you can never force something like that.

[Flojomojo]

I have to be honest, I never expected this many people to be anti-Kickstarter or anti-online credit card use that it would have impacted the Kickstarter campaign this much, but I do feel like it has. I personally don't agree with it because you most certainly could point to a lot of hacking stories, sure, but you most certainly could point to a lot of fatal traffic accidents also but that doesn't stop me from driving my car.

How many of them have there really been? And do you really want to get money orders or rolled pennies from these people anyway?

[TPR]

How many of them have there really been?

 

While there is obviously no quantifiable number, I'd say my rough guess from comments I've seen on social media like Facebook pages, Facebook groups, Twitter, YouTube comments, and on these forums, I've seen at least 100 people who have said they were interested but wouldn't support it on Kickstarter for reasons A, B, or C. And who knows how many more there might have been that are also thinking that, but aren't going to take the time to post.

 

At this point, my professional advice to CollectorVision would be to continue to push the Kickstarter as much as they can over the final 9 days because if it doesn't fund, they will still be able to use that campaign to reach out to those interested to let them know how to buy the console.

 

As of this writing they are at about 350 units sold (also counting the initial early access units) so if the Kickstarter ends with 400+ units being backed, that's a very solid base of people to reach out to and hopefully the majority of them will come back and pre-order the console under "Plan B."

 

I personally think that selling an initial 300-400 units of what is going to be a pretty niche system is very respectable and I would expect that as time goes on, they could double those numbers.

[TPR]

there's no way it's anywhere near enough to have made a difference for this Kickstarter.

 

Oh, I don't think it is enough to have changed whatever the outcome of the Kickstarter will be, but I feel there has been enough that could have helped the overall campaign. People are more likely to jump on a successful bandwagon if they see that there is a potential positive ending to the campaign. Another 100 or so people may not change the outcome, but it could have swayed others who were on the fence to jump in. And even if that wasn't enough to fund the Kickstarter, I would personally have rather seen CollectorVision with 500-600 units sold and people to reach out to for Plan B than 300-400.

 

I think it is important to note that "showing your support" by pledging, even if a Kickstarter campaign doesn't fund, shows CollectorVision you're at least interested in the project and want to continue getting updates on the project. I still am getting updates from that Dragon's Lair movie that didn't fund and I pledged last minute knowing it wouldn't fund, but I joined because I wanted to follow their progress and hope for an eventual positive outcome, even if that doesn't happen on Kickstarter.

[Hannacek]

 

While there is obviously no quantifiable number, I'd say my rough guess from comments I've seen on social media like Facebook pages, Facebook groups, Twitter, YouTube comments, and on these forums, I've seen at least 100 people who have said they were interested but wouldn't support it on Kickstarter for reasons A, B, or C. And who knows how many more there might have been that are also thinking that, but aren't going to take the time to post.

 

 

There are pros and cons of doing funding on Kickstarter. CollectorVision choose Kickstarter knowing some people would have problems with it, and not back it. People are entitled to not trust Kickstarter if they choose to not trust it.

 

I don't get people's problem with credit cards. How do you buy stuff online without a credit card?

Edited October 29, 2018 by Hannacek