Why do people actively hate "pre-NES" consoles?

[deepthaw]

 

Sadly my TV, despite being cited as a low-lag model on several sites (which is a big part of why I purchased it!), seems to have 100ms minimum lag.

 

I can't imagine what it would be over analog inputs, but over HDMI it's very noticeable, and turning on "game mode" bizarrely seems to make it worse. It's a Vizio D series, for what it's worth (D50-D1). They recently pushed a firmware update, so maybe I should try again.

 

I think I have almost that exact model (D50u-D1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016C64ENE/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)- the trick is that only one of the HDMI inputs has the excellent input lag. I'll see which port I'm plugged into when I get home...

[+thegoldenband]

I think I have almost that exact model (D50u-D1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016C64ENE/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)- the trick is that only one of the HDMI inputs has the excellent input lag. I'll see which port I'm plugged into when I get home...

 

Aha! That'd be fantastic if you were able to check that out. I read a passing comment from someone on another site along the same lines, but it was much vaguer.

 

If it's possible to get low lag via Input 1 (I'm guessing) that changes everything. It's a very decent TV in other aspects.

[deepthaw]

 

Aha! That'd be fantastic if you were able to check that out. I read a passing comment from someone on another site along the same lines, but it was much vaguer.

 

If it's possible to get low lag via Input 1 (I'm guessing) that changes everything. It's a very decent TV in other aspects.

 

It looks like you have the 1080p version vs my 4k version, so I don't know if this applies to yours: I have to use HDMI5 and turn on game low latency mode to get the best input lag. RTings doesn't say the same thing about yours, but I suspect it's worth a try especially if you're seeing 100ms or so. Since yours only has three HDMI inputs I guess you just have to try each one to see what works best?

 

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/d-series-1080p-2016

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Aha! That'd be fantastic if you were able to check that out. I read a passing comment from someone on another site along the same lines, but it was much vaguer.

 

If it's possible to get low lag via Input 1 (I'm guessing) that changes everything. It's a very decent TV in other aspects.

Yeah, there should be no reason why you should be getting 100ms of lag on your TV. Your TV should have really low input lag in game mode.

 

What is your signal chain?

Edited December 6, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[+thegoldenband]

I finally figured this one out. I got a RetroTink 2X, which is known to add essentially no lag, in hopes of playing my consoles on my Vizio D50-D1. But I was still getting severe audio lag and nothing I did seemed to change it -- no setting made the slightest difference, and changing HDMI ports changed nothing. (I used a Sega Nomad to hear the audio delay between the Nomad's built-in speaker and the Vizio's speaker.)

 

I was tearing my hair out, until this post made everything clear. It turns out that my TV does indeed have very low input lag over HDMI (~26.2ms), but has much higher audio lag (~86ms) that remains more or less constant regardless of the input source.

 

I'd been using the audio lag to estimate the input lag, and I hadn't imagined that any TV designer would allow for a 60ms differential between audio and video, let alone build a sync issue like that into the hardware -- but that's exactly the case here.

 

In any event, the solution was easy: run the audio directly from my AV switch into my stereo system, bypassing the RetroTink (and HDMI), and only use the HDMI to pass video. Problem solved: nice, crisp, low-lag gaming on my HDTV, with audio and video in sync (or at least within two frames). I still need to get some S-VHS or component cables to get a better picture than composite is giving me, but it's more than adequate for now.

 

BTW my signal chain before involved a lot of variables -- running HDMI from a Mac laptop via a mini-DP > HDMI adapter, for example, or running VGA from my Dreamcast into a VGA > HDMI adapter. At any stage of those things, additional lag could and did creep in (the Dreamcast setup had severe and unmistakable input lag).

 

I tried doing some audio recordings with Audacity to compare how those sources compared when running on other displays, but I didn't have a single, trusted, zero-lag source as a baseline until I got the RetroTink 2X.

[TheCardiganKing]

 

Being a musician does require some precise timing. And maybe 30+ years of instrumental music is why these tiny little toys and their associated lag affect me. Even the "emulation powerhouse" (MVG's words) Shield Android TV has too much lag for me to really enjoy it. But since I *can* get it to a less-than-perceptible level for me means I just need to play that way.

 

BTW people active hate on post-NES consoles, too. It really bums me out.

 

My daughter loves Zelda games from Ocarina of Time on forward, but just refuses to play LttP or the NES games. "They're too hard" she says. I'm a failure as a parent.

Going to have to disagree here. Musician, too, with very quick reaction time and I am very sensitive to it. Being a musician has no bearing on reaction time if you ask me. I see the point you're trying to make, but human reaction time is genetically set.

 

To the original argument: I'm 34 years old and I had a 2600 for a very long time. Flat screens killed any enjoyment of it due to its terrible image quality. The other issue is that newer games are so much better. The arcade like games on NES are beginning to show their age. Titles like Ice Climber, Pinball, Exodus, etc., are tough to play. The latter half of the NES library is where things get interesting. Kirby's Adventure, Mega Man 5/6, Castlevania, SMB3, Little Samson, Little Nemo, Mother... Once developers were able to tell more of a story and present prettier graphics, the gaming world changed into something much more compelling than playing River Raid to no end. 2600 games are much too basic for my liking now, but they still hold an important place in video game history. And they are still pretty fun for short sessions with a friend.

Edited March 6, 2019 by TheCardiganKing

[TheCoolDave]

 

Actually, for twitch games, 100ms is really bad. This same issue comes up for digital audio workstations. Even a 20 ms delay on those will drive musicians batty. Again, latency mainly impacts the older style of games like Pac-Man, Demon Attack, etc... (as well as top-down shooters, and the like). And of course, those happen to be my favorite kinds of games.

 

100ms ? Dam... Crap, when I went from an Analog 65" RPTV (2 feet thick) to a 65" 4K... I noticed I got really bad at some games, esp COD mutli-player... To find out, my LG TV with tons of gaming features (reason I got it, like others) at 1080p is like 55ms... but, when I got my Xbox one X.. I got a little better... because at 4K, my TV gets about 28ms lag. STILL too much to play some games, many of the classics can be almost un-playable because of the lag (it's worse at 480p)... and my Retron 5 appears to be a lag fest (too bad too, games look pretty good on it)

 

I'm trying to figure this one out... as lag is my bane of my existence... and in modern TVs, there is always some and it's something Analog TVs never dealt with...

 

There is also the fact that my wife will not let me blow another $2500 on a TV that I picked up about 4 years ago and STILL works fine(dam you LG). I guess all I can do is have everything scaled up to 4K to get the lowest lag on any gaming content.

 

The 2019 LG OLED models are claiming they have a LOW-LAG mode for gaming(and a big drop in price but, still fairly expensive)... what that means is yet to be seen(lag specs) but, maybe, FINALLY OEMs are noticing the problem with games and TRYING to do something with it. It's about dam time.

 

Maybe in 2-3 years it might be time to get a new TV... and where us gamers can play a game with out thinking about how much better we could game on a analog tv....