full size "the 64" coming

[eightbit]

13 minutes ago, Gray Defender said:

 

The box came with US/Europe adapters that click or snap into the USB power thingy... Sorry I don't know what they are called...

 

And at least you got that for the kickstarter Mine which obviously came from europe came with one USB brick for European territory. It does not have any adapters to swap for other regions. So, I had to supply my own.

[Gray Defender]

Yes, will do.  You/we are not the first people to run into these issues.  I forgot where I was reading some others are asking for replacement units, which right now I am not ready to do.  Mostly my testing has been for functionality, how things work, tinkering.  I haven't really put it to a good play test.  I will say as for the power adapter the fact that it is a common micro USB makes it pretty easy to find an spare power adapter as most people, these days have one around the house.

[eightbit]

Another thing I forgot to add to my observations with this is that I was initially under the impression that you can just swap 50/60Hz when you wanted, the thing would test and if all was good you can save that config. You want 50Hz to match PAL timings for a lot of games and demos. 

 

There is no option for this other than when you first power it on (or factory reset) the unit. AND, you will not receive the option at all unless the EDID information from your HDMI display is received that tells it to show this option to you. In my case I was going through an HDMI autoswitcher and then to the TV. No option for 50Hz. But, going directly to the TV (and factory resetting again) did give me the option. Once 50Hz was selected and saved I was then able to bring it back to the autoswitcher with no issues. I guess the EDID information is only passed for 60Hz through the switcher but that option should just be there on theC64 (in the options) and not rely on EDID information to give the user the option. Select 50Hz and if the display goes out of whack the software should revert to 60Hz in 10 seconds....like how its been done for decades on a PC when you select an out of range resolution. But in my case, my TV does support 50Hz, but because the TV could not provide that information to the console over HDMI the console simply removes the option.

 

You can however choose PAL or NTSC "machines", but if you are running 60Hz and you choose a PAL machine you will be running the PAL game at 60Hz  The only benefit is that the PAL title will work (in my experience with the demos) but run at NTSC speed (at least that is what I believe I am seeing).

 

Again, I need to do a lot more testing with this as time permits. Luckily I have both real NTSC and PAL C64 units so I will be able to really do some good comparisons. Commando is coming to mind.

Edited January 29, 2020 by eightbit

[Swami]

How does it compare to VICE on computers, functionally speaking?

[eightbit]

19 minutes ago, Swami said:

How does it compare to VICE on computers, functionally speaking?

 

 

Well, I have been using Vice for years...and I think it has been pretty accurate for years as well. I believe the C64 (and Vic, Pet, etc) has been properly emulated mostly. Sometimes I see people say they want to use FPGA cores for C64 emulation. Not only do I personally think that is not necessary, but the current state of those cores does not even touch the compatibility of the mature emulation we have and probably won't for a very very long time. Just my observation mind you.

 

That said, it works like Vice in terms of compatibility...which is to say it works like a real C64/Vic in compatibility with software. If you are referring to Vice "options", you will not find those here. This was made to be easy for the end user. Mount a disk, cart, or tape. Launch in manual mode or fast mode. Change disks. That's pretty much all other than the display options, reset the machine...the usual. All of the specialty stuff that you would tweak in vice is hidden to the end user. It is only opened up by adding certain prefixes to the actual game/app/demo filename.

 

But it is not necessarily the compatibility I have issue with more than the other issues I have experienced. Like the freezing at least in the two titles I mentioned. They do not freeze in PC Vice emulation and I suspect (still have to test) that they will not on real hardware. Why are they freezing here is the question. 

 

I believe this is being based on an older version of Vice (which I read somewhere...I don't have any info on the version exactly) and maybe that is why some of these issues are happening. Maybe some bug that was later fixed in the current Vice that is still present in the version they have decided to use. I suspect an older version was used to accommodate a slower ARM CPU. I would be interested to know what version that was in order to analyze changelogs and see what fixes it *doesn't* have.

Edited January 29, 2020 by eightbit

[Swami]

2 minutes ago, eightbit said:

 

 

Well, I have been using Vice for years...and I think it has been pretty accurate for years as well. I believe the C64 (and Vic, Pet, etc) has been properly emulated mostly. Sometimes I see people say they want to use FPGA cores for C64 emulation. Not only do I personally think that is not necessary, but the current state of those cores does not even touch the compatibility of the mature emulation we have and probably won't for a very very long time. Just my observation mind you.

 

That said, it works like Vice in terms of compatibility...which is to say it works like a real C64/Vic in compatibility with software. But it is not necessarily the compatibility I have issue with more than the other issues I have experienced. Like the freezing at least in the two titles I mentioned. They do not freeze in PC Vice emulation and I suspect (still have to test) that they will not on real hardware. Why are they freezing here is the question. 

 

I believe this is being based on an older version of Vice (which I read somewhere...I don't have any info on the version exactly) and maybe that is why some of these issues are happening. Maybe some bug that was later fixed in the current Vice that is still present in the version they have decided to use. I suspect an older version was used to accommodate a slower ARM CPU. I would be interested to know what version that was in order to analyze changelogs and see what fixes it *doesn't* have.

Do you ever have to go through all the rigamarole with renaming and strings of modifiers at the end of the filename? Usually I just load the cart or disk images in VICE and they work, although I've only been using VICE on my PC for a little over a year, so you may be testing some more complicated media than I have.

[eightbit]

8 minutes ago, Swami said:

Do you ever have to go through all the rigamarole with renaming and strings of modifiers at the end of the filename? Usually I just load the cart or disk images in VICE and they work, although I've only been using VICE on my PC for a little over a year, so you may be testing some more complicated media than I have.

 

 

If you launch say a Vic game that requires 35K in Vice on a PC you cannot simply pick it and launch. You have to adjust the ram to accommodate the game.  If you launch a title in Vice on a PC for the C64 and it needs your joystick to be joystick #1 instead of #2 (and you are using a PC USB controller) you have to adjust the settings to tell the emulator that the joystick is now polled to port 1. It is the same thing, but the filename prefix is just telling the emulator on TheC64 to use those options immediately. So, click the game (renamed with the right prefixes) and it launches with the settings you want. It is actually quite transparent/convenient...once its renamed and done

 

But, for "normal" stuff...like you are just loading a .d64 game that uses joystick port #2....you just copy and run it. Yeah, I am testing it with some more complicated stuff I suppose

 

But even still with that (and PC Vice) you might notice that some .d64 games will glitch or not run at all...and that is because they require accurate disk emulation. In PC Vice that is an option you can turn on (and I have had to many times) and on TheC64 you simply add "_ad" (without quotes) to the filename and it does it. You may have passed on some great titles thinking they were just not compatible with the emulation because of this small detail!

Edited January 29, 2020 by eightbit

[carlsson]

8 hours ago, eightbit said:

Some other games will not work as some need to be "soft reset" after the code is running and there is only a hard reset function.

Is it possible to type in SYS64802 [Return] at that point?

 

Edit: Oh, you mean a soft reset once the application/game is running. Odd that they would leave that out, if it is based on VICE anyway.

Edited January 29, 2020 by carlsson

[eightbit]

1 hour ago, carlsson said:

Is it possible to type in SYS64802 [Return] at that point?

 

Edit: Oh, you mean a soft reset once the application/game is running. Odd that they would leave that out, if it is based on VICE anyway.

 

Yep, a good example are those .d64 Vic-20 cart image compilations. Most games work, but certain games require a soft reset after load (like Ms. Pac Man) and there's just no way to do it. There is one option....reset machine. This performs a hard reset.

 

The menu options are really limited. They really wanted the end user to have a simple experience so it seems, but in the process it hinders usability in some cases. All we can do is hope that future firmware revisions will add options. Or better yet, they should offer two firmwares. A "simple" one for end users and an "advanced" one (with more options) for advanced users.

[carlsson]

I'm not sure how those compilations are built but I'm sure some tweaking could be done in software that will autostart even the 16K games that otherwise require a soft reset.

[eightbit]

1 minute ago, carlsson said:

I'm not sure how those compilations are built but I'm sure some tweaking could be done in software that will autostart even the 16K games that otherwise require a soft reset.

I am sure too...or just use another version of the software is another option. But, soft reset while code is running should be an option. Adding "reset" buttons that do this to real Commodore 64's was extremely popular in the day. People added them to the userport, to their fastload cartridges, etc.

[digdugnate]

i've got too many irons in the fire right now taking my attention and time, but i'm still really interested in a full sized 'The C64'.   Hopefully I can pick one up later this year.

 

Till then I'll just keep pluggin' away at my Mini.

[Gray Defender]

11 hours ago, eightbit said:

 

6. It freezes sometimes for some games. I have been playing the excellent "Neutron" and "Santron" (Christmas version) of the 2019 shooter. It works, but every now and then it freezes for 5-10 seconds for no reason. Be it in game or on the title screen. And I mean really freezes the whole machine. Not even the built in menu functions work. Then after 5-10 seconds it comes back. This does not happen on any of the built in games and more testing is obviously needed to see if this is a trend, but on both of these particular games it randomly happens. It could be minutes into the game or longer. I realize it is going to be hard to find testers for this, but if anyone else here with a TheC64 full can recreate this behavior I can try to bring it to the devs (if its not just my unit). Or maybe this happens on a real C64 too? I just thought of that and will have to tests it there as well. But I see no reports of this type of issue on real hardware. Here are the links to this game (which everyone who loves fast shooters and the C64 should get now anyway!):

 

https://sarahjaneavory.itch.io/santron

 

https://sarahjaneavory.itch.io/neutron

 

 

 

I downloaded both games last night.  My unit was powered on for about an hour and gave them a go.  I tried the disk and prg formats of both games and I played them in C64 PAL mode.  My unit is configured NTSC 60hz.  Needless to say I was unable to duplicate your issue.  I had ZERO freezes.  Now there are a lot of variables at play so it is hard to tell what exactly might be triggering a freeze.  I am not that good at these games.   I got to the third boss once.  For what it's worth I like the Santron (hack) version better than Neutron which I know were both put out by Sarah Jane Avory..

 

As for the emulation, I think it's great, but some people have noticed speed/sound differences in the game "Impossible Mission" for example.  Check out the terrific video by "8 bit show and tell" at about 14 minutes in.  I probably would not have noticed what was pointed out.

 

 

[eightbit]

50 minutes ago, Gray Defender said:

 

I downloaded both games last night.  My unit was powered on for about an hour and gave them a go.  I tried the disk and prg formats of both games and I played them in C64 PAL mode.  My unit is configured NTSC 60hz.  Needless to say I was unable to duplicate your issue.  I had ZERO freezes.  Now there are a lot of variables at play so it is hard to tell what exactly might be triggering a freeze.  I am not that good at these games.   I got to the third boss once.  For what it's worth I like the Santron (hack) version better than Neutron which I know were both put out by Sarah Jane Avory..

 

As for the emulation, I think it's great, but some people have noticed speed/sound differences in the game "Impossible Mission" for example.  Check out the terrific video by "8 bit show and tell" at about 14 minutes in.  I probably would not have noticed what was pointed out.

 

 

 

 

 

You beat me to my follow up

 

I found the cause of the "freezing" issue was actually my HDMI auto switcher. I connected TheC64 directly to the TV this morning and could not reproduce the issue. While it appeared the console was freezing, it was not the case. The HDMI signal was freezing (through the autoswitcher) and then "catching up" 5-10 seconds later. I should have tested this without the switch previously. The only reason why I am using the switch is because the TV is wall mounted and further away than the length of a standard 6 foot cable. I tested the console direct using a 16ft active HDMI cable and could not reproduce the issue again. In any case, good news it is not the console or the emulation!

 

[Gray Defender]

That's great news.  Glad you figured it out!

[eightbit]

I also tested "Commando" on this briefly this morning. This is a good test of the NTSC/PAL functionality. I know there are many other games and demos, but I know Commando quite well and can immediately detect whether or not it is running NTSC or PAL.

 

Playing this game as a kid (on an NTSC machine of course since I reside in NA) I always thought the glitching on the bottom half of the screen was weird but chalked it up to the C64 just not being "powerful enough" to run the game perfectly. Years later I found I was very wrong. The game was intended for PAL machines and rights correctly on them. On NTSC machines the music is too fast and the screen glitches.

 

I wanted to see how this game reacts when running TheC64 in 60Hz mode and choosing C64 PAL. First I tested the NTSC mode and it was exactly like I remember. Fast music and glitching. Then the PAL mode. Interesting. The music is still fast, but it is glitch free.

 

So, when set to 60Hz it is running at 60Hz of course. When set to PAL it must be doing some correction...but still remaining at 60Hz speed. Which actually is the best of all worlds for me as I am used to the fast music as I grew up with it sounding this way...but now the glitchy-ness is gone (or reduced)

[Laner]

2 hours ago, eightbit said:

Playing this game as a kid (on an NTSC machine of course since I reside in NA) I always thought the glitching on the bottom half of the screen was weird but chalked it up to the C64 just not being "powerful enough" to run the game perfectly. Years later I found I was very wrong. The game was intended for PAL machines and rights correctly on them. On NTSC machines the music is too fast and the screen glitches.

 

 

Yeah - that was an eye-opening experience for me. I just assumed those sort of glitches (I recall them being particularly prominent in Paperboy and Rambo) were just due to poor coding. 

[Gray Defender]

I was playing Boulder Dash (selected from carousel menu) and I noticed when the screen scrolls, the background darkens slightly, when the scrolling stops it lightens back up.  Did same in PAL or NTSC.  Seems more pronounced in pixel perfect mode.  It is a little bit distracting.

 

Curious to know if anyone else noticed this or if it is just my TV/HDMI cable issue.

[Gray Defender]

Might just be a "feature", does same thing in Vice on my PC.

[imstarryeyed]

Can someone test Nemesis from Konami, its Gradius for the C64.  I have the mini and tried it but it played way to fast on my US C64.

 

When I used the PAL switch the game worked but was still running at 60 hz which is too fast for this game.  The aliens were coming out way too fast, I am assuming that this game can only run in PAL with 50 hz speed.

 

I am hoping the maxi can play this game properly for us USA folks if/when it is released here, until then it would be great to hear if it is working for those folks that do have the maxi already.

 

[carlsson]

IIRC there were both Nemesis (EU) and Gradius (US) versions for the C64 so it might be worthwhile to try locate another version. At least HVSC has SID rips from both games as separate entries.

[Gray Defender]

When I inquired on the Indiegogo campaign if my unit was the North American one this was their response:

 

"There is currently only one version of THEC64 and it is identical across all regions. There is currently no official North American version, and we are in the hands of our distribution company with regards to an official retail release in North America. We will update people when the current situation changes.

 

Regards,

 

Retro Games Ltd."

[+OLD CS1]

Well, shyte.  I guess I will just import mine, then.

[+save2600]

What's the least expensive option out there? I see them for $215 + $35 shipping on eBay. Definitely don't want to spend that much on one. And nothing on Amazon U.S.

[StephenJ]

49 minutes ago, Gray Defender said:

When I inquired on the Indiegogo campaign if my unit was the North American one this was their response:

 

"There is currently only one version of THEC64 and it is identical across all regions. There is currently no official North American version, and we are in the hands of our distribution company with regards to an official retail release in North America. We will update people when the current situation changes.

 

Regards,

 

Retro Games Ltd."

FYIY,

On January 6th, I received the following from Retro-Bit:

"...For various reasons, the selection of pre-installed games available might end up being different on the US version. That aside,
technically it will be the exact same hardware as the European version currently on sale..."