Capacitor/Electrical Degradation

[adamchevy]

I have a question about what causes Capacitors and Electronics to degrade. Is it time and use? I’m sure it’s some of both. But what if your purchasing a new in box console? Would the capacitors/Electronics degrade just based on age? I’m sure how it was stored is an issue. But let’s say it was stored in a basement at normal temperature/moisture levels in both cases. A moderately used console vs a console stored since new.

[ChildOfCv]

The most common cause for failure of electrolytic capacitors (especially those made within a certain time period) is that the electrolyte leaks out. This is also the most common failure for electronics, though when the capacitors go, they can also take other components out with them.

 

Any electronics were outside air permeates the outer case will also be subject to degradation. This can happen because of static shock (read, pinhole blown through case by a zap), because the contact legs don't get a perfect seal around them, maybe even just a manufacturing defect.

 

Another killer over time is heat. Most parts are rated for operation within some temperature range, but even within that temperature range, the clock of useful life ticks down.

 

Physical shock/vibration can also cause stress fractures that grow over time. After all, most semiconductors are made with or on a crystalline structure.

[adamchevy]

What this thread isn’t super popular? Thanks for the info. I’m thinking about starting to collect new in box consoles to save for later. That’s the reason I ask. I was wondering if I stored them well if it would be worth it.

[Keatah]

There is the old wives' tale that if you don't power them up from time to time, they can explode when you DO power them up. I think I heard like every couple of years - give them a few moments of power-on usage.

[4300]

The good thing about these old consoles is that when they need a cap job, there's not a ton of electrolytics in them to replace.

 

Edit: Actually, I take that back. I forgot which sub forum i was in. Vectrex is a different beast.

Edited December 17, 2018 by 4300

[+-^CrossBow^-]

The good thing about these old consoles is that when they need a cap job, there's not a ton of electrolytics in them to replace.

 

Edit: Actually, I take that back. I forgot which sub forum i was in. Vectrex is a different beast.

Model 1 Genesis and TurboDuo have about as many...

[adamchevy]

Does the Vectrex display brighter Vectors after doing a full cap kit? Or is it usually only done when you can’t see anything? I’ve heard of people doing it for preventative reasons. I’m just wondering if it made any noticeable improvements?

[Zitruskeks]

Electrolytic Caps can also dry out over time, even when not used. This changes the characteristics of a cap, even if no visible leakage (actual wet material oozing out) occurs, then begin to electrical leak - which means that they begin to conduct DC, too, changing them to behave more and more like resistors, shorting out circuits. So even having new old stock units just sit in the shelf will in no way help. I had an C64 bought back in the days when they where on clearance on one of the big german mail order houses as a spare for my old one, and it just sat in darkness for all these years and some of the caps where gone as I tested it this summer. Actually the colour ram was gone, too. It might even died the moment I tested the system - on a newly built "Greisis" PSU.

 

My Amiga 600 also had really nice looking caps (some of the better eBay scores, just one tiny slightly dull solder point was to be seen on the audio caps where they stared leaking a bit) and it was dead until I recapped it with new high quality SMD electrolytics (did not wanted to go the ceramic way).

 

Here is a thread of a NOS Amiga 1200 not working (probably the caps, too).

 

Especially the caps of some systems like the Amiga 600, 1200 and CD32, the ones in the Sega Game Gear etc are time bombs. Regardless of well used machines or shelf queens. They HAVE to be replaced now to avoid serious board damage.

The caps of the Vectrex don't seem to be as prone to physical leakage, but nonetheless to electrical leakage. So a shelf queen Vectrex is in far less danger of destroying itself by etching its board traces away, but it might need a recap to become fully functional, with non warping vectors and all.

 

All in all personally I would not spent the extra money for (near) NOS systems just to hope the caps behave nicely, as they won't. Just time alone will kill them electrically, and some of them are prone to kill your boards as they puke out their innards, too.

 

I fully recapped my Vectrex (late EU non buzz model). It was working and didn't have obvious problems (as warping vectors etc) but now I can be assured that the chances of a bad cap killing it is drastically lowered and everything behaves like intended. I know there a very different opinions of not changing caps until you see a problem, but regarding to electrolytics, I like the shotgun approach. I see one, I change one. Costs me some cents and a Minute. And as some systems can run without caps (as Amigas can) waiting for an actual sign can mean waiting too long.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Zitruskeks

[adamchevy]

Electrolytic Caps can also dry out over time, even when not used. This changes the characteristics of a cap, even if no visible leakage (actual wet material oozing out) occurs, then begin to electrical leak - which means that they begin to conduct DC, too, changing them to behave more and more like resistors, shorting out circuits. So even having new old stock units just sit in the shelf will in no way help. I had an C64 bought back in the days when they where on clearance on one of the big german mail order houses as a spare for my old one, and it just sat in darkness for all these years and some of the caps where gone as I tested it this summer. Actually the colour ram was gone, too. It might even died the moment I tested the system - on a newly built "Greisis" PSU.

 

My Amiga 600 also had really nice looking caps (some of the better eBay scores, just one tiny slightly dull solder point was to be seen on the audio caps where they stared leaking a bit) and it was dead until I recapped it with new high quality SMD electrolytics (did not wanted to go the ceramic way).

 

Here is a thread of a NOS Amiga 1200 not working (probably the caps, too).

 

Especially the caps of some systems like the Amiga 600, 1200 and CD32, the ones in the Sega Game Gear etc are time bombs. Regardless of well used machines or shelf queens. They HAVE to be replaced now to avoid serious board damage.

The caps of the Vectrex don't seem to be as prone to physical leakage, but nonetheless to electrical leakage. So a shelf queen Vectrex is in far less danger of destroying itself by etching its board traces away, but it might need a recap to become fully functional, with non warping vectors and all.

 

All in all personally I would not spent the extra money for (near) NOS systems just to hope the caps behave nicely, as they won't. Just time alone will kill them electrically, and some of them are prone to kill your boards as they puke out their innards, too.

 

I fully recapped my Vectrex (late EU non buzz model). It was working and didn't have obvious problems (as warping vectors etc) but now I can be assured that the chances of a bad cap killing it is drastically lowered and everything behaves like intended. I know there a very different opinions of not changing caps until you see a problem, but regarding to electrolytics, I like the shotgun approach. I see one, I change one. Costs me some cents and a Minute. And as some systems can run without caps (as Amigas can) waiting for an actual sign can mean waiting too long.

That’s some great information! Thanks! So your saying it’s better to buy a recaped console and store it rather than NOS? Sounds good to me! Edited December 20, 2018 by adamchevy

[+-^CrossBow^-]

To answer the question on the brightness...in the case of most arcade monitors and the Vectrex, the brightness is usually determined by how healthy the flyback itself is. I actually did the full recap on my Vectrex a few years back because I felt it was a little too dim. However, the full recap did nothing to correct this.

 

My vectrex is dimmer than most because even at full brightness, I don't see the vector lines. But I've got a spare vectrex that has severe vector alignment and logic issues that seems to have a nice bright display just in case...

[Zitruskeks]

Basically, yes. Of course a NOS has always the benefit of a NOS, like no usual wear and tear.

 

But even if you get a nos console now, at least check and make sure the caps in it are not known for physical leaking. If its really just for long time storage then some caps can be left in to be replaced just before whenever the console shall be used again. In these cases, a recapping now would be not as beneficial, as the new caps will age, too. Probably better than the old ones, but they will still age. So if you are 100% sure you just want to store something for the next 30 years than replacing a cap that "just" will silently die and not damage anything else physically by doing so can just stay until the machine will be switched on again. But some caps just HAVE to go NOW. They are eating your boards away, and they do it for some years already.

 

Just compare it to the really old stuff, like old tube gear, like radios or oscilloscopes. If you get one now, you DON'T turn it on without checking and often replacing at least some of the caps regardless of well used or NOS. If you do, you can and most probably will kill components as certain types of caps are known to leak DC and act like a resistor.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Zitruskeks

[adamchevy]

Can anyone recommend someone who does recapping on Vectrex consoles? I’m going to try and locate a NOS Vectrex and have it fully recapped then put in storage just in case mine dies some day. I think prices are only going to keep going up, so now seems like a good time.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

[adamchevy]

Excellent Sir, when I find one I’ll be in touch. What’s the cost on recapping a Vectrex? Edited December 20, 2018 by adamchevy

[christo930]

What this thread isn’t super popular? Thanks for the info. I’m thinking about starting to collect new in box consoles to save for later. That’s the reason I ask. I was wondering if I stored them well if it would be worth it.

 

You should run stuff occasionally. This is especially true of anything that has electrolytic caps.

My guess is that the tubes in the Vectrex are not going to go anytime soon. Pretty much all of them are very low hour.

 

Try to keep stuff inside of larger plastic tubs or something that can seal and keep those tubs in an environment which is controlled with air and heat and away from moisture.

 

I can remember a lot of people worrying about ROM cartridges back in the 90s and how these were approaching their useful life This has largely not been a problem.

 

I have heard that the open-source community has gotten very good at putting the chips on a microscope and recreating the schematics. I know some common chips have already been done, but it would be nice to see some of the custom chips like the SID and the TIA (assuming it's not already done or the original schematics survived) done so that they could be either redome in FPGA or even a run of chips at some point so these machines can be kept working indefinitely.