Atari 8-Bit as a Legitimate Business Machine

[Kyle22]

Florida is also a great place

[Gunstar]

Yep, I visited Florida several times; east coast, west coast and Miami, but never lived there.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Gunstar

[Faicuai]

2 hours ago, Kyle22 said:

Florida is also a great place

Indeed!

 

 

(Lake Okeechobee, north-side, extending beyond visible horizon)

 

#1 population (and GDP) gainer states in the entire union: FL and TX.

 

  

 

 

[Pokeypy]

My 50 cents: Apple II, C64 and Atari 800 (XL) basically used the same 6502-processor (with slight variations). In the Apple II and C64, the processor ran at just about 1 MHz, while in the A8 it ran at 1,79 MHz. All three had  also about the same amount of RAM, and the Atari 800 and 800 XL had quite usable keyboards.

So technically, the A8 would at the time sure have been a decent business machine.

It may just have been, that Atari's image as a computer games company stood in the way.

If I had run a company back then, and had wanted to be taken seriously, I'm not sure, I would have chosen an Atari computer (or a C64). Especially, if customers or business partners used to enter my office. The Apple II may have been more expensive (actually, in 1979, the Atari 800 wasn't very affordable either), but I'd written off the costs against taxes.

So I think, Atari was aiming for the business market too, but the design (lots of colors, player missile graphics, sound, joystick ports, cartridge slot) lead more in the direction "games machine".

In 1980, there were also efforts to establish the Atari 400/800 as school computers (which may have been a good idea, I think).

 

For text processing, there was "Atari Writer". It was quite handy, to have such a program on a cartridge. You could then just switch on the computer and immediately start writing your text. That's nice, isn't it?

 

 

 

And (to my amazement) there was also an Atari version of "VisiCalc", which was one of the first serious spreadsheet applications. Wikipedia says about it:

Quote

VisiCalc was the first spreadsheet computer program for personal computers ... It is often considered the application that turned the microcomputer from a hobby for computer enthusiasts into a serious business tool, prompting IBM to introduce the IBM PC two years later. VisiCalc is considered to be Apple II's killer app.

Many companies even just bought Apple IIs, to run VisiCalc. Well, they could have bought Ataris too or instead. Seems, they only did to a certain extent.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Pokeypy

[Faicuai]

11 hours ago, Pokeypy said:

And (to my amazement) there was also an Atari version of "VisiCalc", which was one of the first serious spreadsheet applications. Wikipedia says about it:

Absolutely...

 

The REAL app. that justified personal computing, and launched Apple II into stardom!

 

Got a copy, a short while ago, brand-new. Here's opened for the first time in decades. Quite a master-piece and a must have in anyone's collection (along with SynCalc, which is faster and more powerful):

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Faicuai

[Gunstar]

I hoped to get a complete copy of VisiCalc for my 8-bit library collection, but I already have and use SynCalc and other Syn-apps in the Syn-suite collection. And, as said, it's more powerful than VisiCalc (Does VisiCalc for Atari even allow use of extended memory?). I love using my Atari for serious work even today; it makes the paper work more fun because I'm using my old Atari! These old application are perfect for me for my small business day-to-day and personal finances and records. And for word processing too, now with TLW processor and 80-columns. I also recently got a ream of fan-fold printer paper and two new ink ribbon cartridges for my Panasonic KX-P2023 24-pin dot-matrix printer (w/MicroPrint Centronics adapter) for use with it all!

 

For personal and small business finances I love using 'My Personal Net Worth,' it's sophistication for an 8-bit finance app is amazing. And, even though it wasn't made to use with it, I can use my CX85 keypad with MPNW thanks to 'Reevekey' keypad handler (by Alan Reeve, programmer of Diamond GOS) that you load up prior and swap disks for reboot with keypad working! Unfortunately, due to it's use of memory, SynCalc won't work with Reevekey. Anyone know of a CX85 keypad handler that works with Syn-apps? I've tried R.K. and 'Atari CX85 Master Disk' keypad handlers with SynCalc and both are wiped from memory when SynCalc loads. I'll have to see if either keypad handler I have works with VisiCalc...

 

 

The Atari CX85 Master Diskette CX8139.atr CX85 Reeve Key.atr

Edited May 9, 2021 by Gunstar

[+mytek]

18 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Anyone know of a CX85 keypad handler that works with Syn-apps? I've tried R.K. and 'Atari CX85 Master Disk' keypad handlers with SynCalc and both are wiped from memory when SynCalc loads.

I don't know if this will help you, but if you were willing to install a TK-II, it's likely that a PS/2 numeric keypad will work for what you are after - no driver required and no memory issues. I have some of those keypads in a box somewhere, so I'll give it a try tomorrow. Be interesting to see if this idea works

 

[Gunstar]

27 minutes ago, mytek said:

I don't know if this will help you, but if you were willing to install a TK-II, it's likely that a PS/2 numeric keypad will work for what you are after - no driver required and no memory issues. I have some of those keypads in a box somewhere, so I'll give it a try tomorrow. Be interesting to see if this idea works

 

I have a TK-II board I use during repairs and trouble shooting with the bare mobo, so I can check it out. But I definitely prefer using the CX85 if I can. Good idea though!?

 

I just found this in the Atarimania FAQ regarding CX85:

 

        

Numerical Keypad Handler Master Program Diskette CX8139, by Atari, 1982
   - Explicitly promoted by Atari for use with VisiCalc
   - Disk contains two files: KEYPAD.OBJ and KEYPAD.SRC, which states:
       DEMONSTRATION OF CX-85 KEYPAD INTERRUPT HANDLER, FLORA P. NG, 3/08/82
   - Disk is a boot disk.  KEYPAD.OBJ loads and runs on system boot, then
     prompts the user to: "Insert your program diskette in drive #1 and
     press RETURN"

 

So this could be a reason for me to start using VisiCalc instead of SynCalc. Also, since the file keypad.src is on the ATR image, maybe it could be hacked to work with SynCalc! But I'm not giving up on a handler for SynCalc yet, there were a couple more CX85 handlers listed in the Atarimania FAQ...

CX-85-Driver (Zong 7+8/1994); 
- CX-85-Keycode-driver (Zong 7+8/1995); 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

I've been thinking, that maybe the CX8139 keypad handler source code (keypad.src on ATR) could be made to work with the 800 48K (+Axlon) version of SynCalc for 800's 52K main memory, with or without Axlon extended memory (and Incognito in 52K Colleen mode + Axlon), if the handler code was moved to the extra 4K under the OS? Or will SynCalc commandeer that 4K automatically if it detects it? IIRC, Syncalc detects Mosaic 64K memory and will use it, so maybe it does the same if it detects 52K main memory? Any programmers up for the challenge?

Edited May 9, 2021 by Gunstar

[Faicuai]

2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

(...)

 

 

 

The Atari CX85 Master Diskette CX8139.atr 90.02 kB · 0 downloads CX85 ReeveKey.atr 90.02 kB · 0 download

 

That's the holy trinity, right there.

 

And yes. SynCalc will do much larger sheets due to extended RAM addressing, but Syncalc (while only running in 48K) will be more precise, and up to x2 orders of magnitude (100 times).

 

I am preparing a show-down between the two, with downloadable tests. I will post in the coming days.

 

[luckybuck]

https://atariwiki.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=AtariCX85

[atarilux]

I had Mini Office and Home Filing Manager back in the day along with some PD text editors etc. Like most 8-bit computers from the time, they were more than capable of daily tasks e.g. word processing, spreadsheets and managing small databases. If needs are simple (by the standards of today) then I am sure they remain useful. For example, I used to work in a small bookstore, we used physical cards for stock control... An Atari 8-Bit would have made the whole process much better

 

Let's be honest though, for today's "big" data driven economy I doubt 64k on any platform is enough for more complex tasks.

 

 

[Gunstar]

8 hours ago, atarilux said:

I had Mini Office and Home Filing Manager back in the day along with some PD text editors etc. Like most 8-bit computers from the time, they were more than capable of daily tasks e.g. word processing, spreadsheets and managing small databases. If needs are simple (by the standards of today) then I am sure they remain useful. For example, I used to work in a small bookstore, we used physical cards for stock control... An Atari 8-Bit would have made the whole process much better

 

Let's be honest though, for today's "big" data driven economy I doubt 64k on any platform is enough for more complex tasks.

 

 

Back in the day, I was young and in high school with a 130XE so only Atari Writer+ and a checkbook balance/check print program I typed in out of Antic or Analog were the only "serious" apps I used, and I didn't have a CX85 keypad either. They did the jobs I needed. But in the early 2000's when I started my first business I wanted to use my Atari 8-bit for file and record keeping and book keeping for both nostalgic and security reasons (no remote threats) and because it's a new use for my favorite old computer, something I'm always looking for. I started with Atari's Bookkeeper and filing programs but moved on to Syn series and other, later written and more sophisticated applications.

 

There are plenty of Atari 8-bit application programs to choose from amongst the 10+ years of application software support in both commercial and PD, that are plenty powerful enough for personal and small business use even today, as long as you don't feel the need for easy access to such records constantly on a smartphone, tablet or laptop (though technically you still could with emulators I guess), and the best reason to still use these old apps is the lack of remote access for hackers and thieves, most of which probably wouldn't have a clue how to use or access in person due to the ancient proprietary nature of the beast.

 

Beyond the natural security of an old proprietary and solitary computer though, the only reason for serious apps on these machines, if they can handle the load, is just for the love and fun in using these old computers as much as possible. If all you want from your computer is strictly hobby and gaming, there are plenty of modern day freeware apps for modern machines and of course all the online apps available today with no local software app to load at all. But there is always the danger of hacking and identity theft when your records can all be accessed via the internet 24/7 with all our modern tech, even such abilities as turning on your PC remotely.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Gunstar

[+David_P]

Patch the OS ROM to include the driver?

[+MrFish]

2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

the natural security of an old proprietary and solitary computer

This is an important reason, and one on my list of many, why I still have more than just some nostalgic interest in using Atari 8-bit computers.

 

[Gunstar]

On 5/8/2021 at 10:15 PM, Gunstar said:

I have a TK-II board I use during repairs and trouble shooting with the bare mobo, so I can check it out. But I definitely prefer using the CX85 if I can. Good idea though!?

 

I just found this in the Atarimania FAQ regarding CX85:

 

        

Numerical Keypad Handler Master Program Diskette CX8139, by Atari, 1982
   - Explicitly promoted by Atari for use with VisiCalc
   - Disk contains two files: KEYPAD.OBJ and KEYPAD.SRC, which states:
       DEMONSTRATION OF CX-85 KEYPAD INTERRUPT HANDLER, FLORA P. NG, 3/08/82
   - Disk is a boot disk.  KEYPAD.OBJ loads and runs on system boot, then
     prompts the user to: "Insert your program diskette in drive #1 and
     press RETURN"

 

So this could be a reason for me to start using VisiCalc instead of SynCalc. Also, since the file keypad.src is on the ATR image, maybe it could be hacked to work with SynCalc! But I'm not giving up on a handler for SynCalc yet, there were a couple more CX85 handlers listed in the Atarimania FAQ...

CX-85-Driver (Zong 7+8/1994); 
- CX-85-Keycode-driver (Zong 7+8/1995); 

 

 

More on the CX85 and using it with SynCalc: I was browsing Bravo-Sierra's software catalog and I came across this entry for SynCalc that caught my eye right away!

 

SynCalc; Synapse SoftWare; 48K Atari/C=64; Comes with Template for CX85 and
Template Disk.; (2) Disks, CX85 Template, Docs & Box...............$15.00 U$D.

 

Is this a typo and really means handler for CX85? How can a template for SynCalc make a CX85 work with it? Does anyone have, apparently the '85 version of SynCalc that has both Atari & C64 versions and this template/template disk that can look into this more? Maybe it's worth buying this version even though I already own the original version just for this? I intend to e-mail Ben and ask him more about this, but I may get a response here much quicker so I posted about it...

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

More on the CX85 and using it with SynCalc: I was browsing Bravo-Sierra's software catalog and I came across this entry for SynCalc that caught my eye right away!

 

SynCalc; Synapse SoftWare; 48K Atari/C=64; Comes with Template for CX85 and
Template Disk.; (2) Disks, CX85 Template, Docs & Box...............$15.00 U$D.

 

Is this a typo and really means handler for CX85? How can a template for SynCalc make a CX85 work with it? Does anyone have, apparently the '85 version of SynCalc that has both Atari & C64 versions and this template/template disk that can look into this more? Maybe it's worth buying this version even though I already own the original version just for this? I intend to e-mail Ben and ask him more about this, but I may get a response here much quicker so I posted about it...

That may be referring to a keypad template for the CX85.  It probably provides a different legend for the Escape / No / Delete / Yes strip of keys on the left-hand side of the keypad.

[+CharlieChaplin]

Find attached some CX85 drivers and test programs collected from various sources. Have not tested them, since I do not own a CX85.

 

Also attached the two ZONG diskettes, the one from 7+8/1994 contains a CX85 driver, but on the one from 7+8/1995 I could not find the CX85 keycode driver (maybe it is missing, maybe I simply did not see it)...

 

 

CX85.zip ZONG_CX85.zip

[Gunstar]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

That may be referring to a keypad template for the CX85.  It probably provides a different legend for the Escape / No / Delete / Yes strip of keys on the left-hand side of the keypad.

I see, so you can make a template to print and use with the CX85, with SynCalc, but you can't actually use the CX85 with SynCalc. Unless there's a driver/handler not yet found to use with it, maybe in the zip files posted above. LOL.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Gunstar

[+DjayBee]

1 hour ago, Gunstar said:

I see, so you can make a template to print and use with the CX85, with SynCalc, but you can't actually use the CX85 with SynCalc. Unless there's a driver/handler not yet found to use with it, maybe in the zip files posted above. LOL.

Don't be so pessimistic. ?

 

Copy the attached file to my Syncalc 85 ATR.

Rename the AUTORUN.SYS (Syncalc 85) to something different.

Boot the disk, load CX3720.XEX, load Syncalc and keep your fingers crossed. ?

I have no CX85 and therefore cannot test it, but at least it does not crash Syncalc.

 

CX3720.xex

 

If it works and I receive some more feedback on my file version of Syncalc, I will incorporate it in the loader.

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, Gunstar said:

I see, so you can make a template to print and use with the CX85, with SynCalc, but you can't actually use the CX85 with SynCalc. Unless there's a driver/handler not yet found to use with it, maybe in the zip files posted above. LOL.

All I'm going to say in my defence is that sleep deprivation makes me not brain gud

[luckybuck]

No problem, DjayBee is our Atari Backup brain, so you can go ahead.

 

@DjayBee:

Btw, where does CX3720 come from? The disc for the CX-85 is labeled CX8139.

 

@all: have inserted the above to: Syncalc1985-48k-Axlon-SD-CX85.atr

works like a charm!!!!!! :-))))

 

@DjayBee: incredible job and breakthrough, too!

 

Syncalc1985-48k-Axlon-SD-CX85.atr

Edited May 11, 2021 by luckybuck

[+DjayBee]

38 minutes ago, luckybuck said:

where does CX3720 come from?

$3720 is the loading address of the driver and CX means CX85. 

[luckybuck]

Ah o. k., thank you. ?

[Gunstar]

Fantastic! So we now have 180K disk support and CX85 keypad support for SynCalc! Other than disk support to actually match top SynCalc ram support of 245K (and 180K is good enough for me, I can keep my files within that limit and only use that much of the available ram at a time) the only thing we need now for SynCalc is support for software 80 column drivers like Omniview 80's or the ACE/80. How feasible would this be?

 

Having tested many commercial programs with Omniview 80 years ago when I got a Warp+ 32-in-1 OS installed in my 1200XL, I know there are quite a few that stick to mode E:/graphics 0 screens and will work in Omniview's 80 column mode, even if they only work on the left half of screen, if they worked at all, since they were formatted for 40 columns when programmed. Of course there's no practical use for that, so regardless if an app would work on an 80 column screen but only fill half, popular programs like Atariwriter+ and Letter Perfect were often patched by the 80-column software/hardware developer/publisher to use the full 80 columns and not just the first 40.

 

 I , of course, never tried SynCalc with Omniview 80 because I at least know from my experience of software 80 column drivers (also SDX's 80 columns) that it won't work because it doesn't use full mode E:/graphics 0 screens, but has a row or more with double-wide characters for menu screen titles, etc. But if that part of the screen display could be hacked to work in Mode E:/Graphics 0, like the rest of the screen, it might just work, even if it only displays on half the screen.

 

But could it be possible that at least the actual spread-sheet screen, because of the nature of it's layout and scrolling abilities would just automatically fill up the 80 column screen and only the other screens would be half-screen wide? Of course with Murphy's Law, I know it's more likely the actual spreadsheet screen would cause Syncalc NOT to work with a graphic 0 80 column driver) Or at least be hacked to work with mode E: 80 column driver software without much trouble? (no more than was required for DD and CX85 support) Would the pop-up windows be a problem for 80-column support even if they are mode E: just because the way they pop up and are a different color (so a DLI is used)?

Edited May 11, 2021 by Gunstar