outRun A Poll about doing an OutRun for A8...

[emkay]

Some people blocked emkay, I wouldn't wonder if he blocked himself too, so that he doesn't have to read what he writes...

I have a clue for you: If you read text you don't understand, why don't you just click to the next topic?

[Irgendwer]

I have a clue for you: If you read text you don't understand, why don't you just click to the next topic?

 

No need for soliloquizing.

 

But as a late Christmas present, a clue for you:

 

What has Stunt Car Racer to do with:

 

But, copying a character and character clusters to the screen costs almost nothing.

 

(Hint: ...the heaven and the earth...)

 

...and if you like to think further, imagine why Antic D needs more processing time for that

...and that you still have to imagine that drawing isn't the major task.

 

Come on, if you try it you may understand it this time...

[emkay]

No need for soliloquizing.

And why won't you stop ?

 

But as a late Christmas present, a clue for you:

 

What has Stunt Car Racer to do with:

 

 

(Hint: ...the heaven and the earth...)

 

...and if you like to think further, imagine why Antic D needs more processing time for that

...and that you still have to imagine that drawing isn't the major task.

 

Come on, if you try it you may understand it this time...

 

The whole post of your's is nonsense. What's your problem of your real life for attacking me on and on ?

 

For the others :

 

In ANTIC D any game can be done in full frame handling. The game resolution will fit to the resolution, objects were allowed to move. So the resolution is 160x120, the objects can move at 160x120 pixel precision. This will cost more calculation time, but ANTIC D has a lot more CPU time available than the character mode that equals best to recreate C64 games.

Character Mode eats a lot CPU time but offers fast updates at the resolution of 40x30 . Objects were allowed to move at the resolution of 40x30 .

 

The difference between Stunt Car Racer and Outrun is the amount of moving and independent details.

While Stunt Car Racer is a tricked 3D scene, Outrun needs more complex handling on the details.

In Outrun it is needed to do two engines running co related at the same time.

The Road needs possibly 30-50% CPU time every frame, otherwise a fluent moving Road isn't possible. The lower resolution of the character mode needs less updates. So that engine can run at less than 15 fps. Due to the fast updates of the character, no buffer is needed... and so on.

[_The Doctor__]

I don't follow the poll, it's wording is off. I can't answer because of that. It needs clarification and refinement of word choices or correction.

 

I would say try to do it all the very best you can, You may be surprised with how good it comes out, if it doesn't turn out well it will lead to something better later. Only name it OUTRUN if it comes out to be a decent version of that game. If you can alter it and make it very good on a re-visit and it no longer can resemble outrun but is a good or great racer.. just name it something else.

It is all very fluid. The best games can come from shooting for a target- if it is missed once or that target has moved or become something else or wasn't reachable that re thinking makes for something great. Sometimes when you shoot for the moon you actually reach it!

Edited January 12, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[Gunstar]

How about an off-road 4x4 racer using one of those landscape fractal or voxel engines we've seen demos and games based on. Or even a road racer, using the fractal engine for road side landscaping, and color-cycling for a road...road side sprites wouldn't be needed as much with fractals/voxels wizzing by, and more could be dedicated to the cars/traffic/objects on the road.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Gunstar

[miker]

Anyone tried to contact DamageX who started making it years ago?

 

I think it's worth trying...

[Gunstar]

I think it would make it look next-gen and blow away all those 8/16-bit sprite based racers because it uses an Atari strength instead of chasing the clock over taxing the Atari with trying to multiplex hardware and software sprites so much. Of course as many P/M and software sprites can be thrown in to enhance it, all the better, as long as it doesn't slow down the landscape engine.

 

It could be another wonder like Space Harrier.

 

I also thought about a sprite based racer done the same way as Space Harrier, maybe using the Space Harrier sprite engine. Lots of flickering, but fast and huge sprites with lots of color.The lower resolution is totally made up for from the numerous and huge sprites flying at break-neck speed. Especially on the levels with the ceilings, that would be so cool for driving through tunnels. That's how Outrun should be attempted on the Atari, no it doesn't have the rolling hill effects, but maybe there's an answer for that, or you just ignore it and have a flat road Outrun-like game. They are both Sega super-sprite based games and we see how the Atari can do Space Harrier, so why not Outrun, Afterburner, etc. using the same technique too?

Edited January 12, 2019 by Gunstar

[kiwilove]

Space Harrier is in the same hardware area as Enduro Racer and Super Hang On - whereas Out Run uses way too many sprites on screen for the A8 hardware to emulate - an impossible conversion for anyone to take on.

 

Harvey

[Gunstar]

Space Harrier is in the same hardware area as Enduro Racer and Super Hang On - whereas Out Run uses way too many sprites on screen for the A8 hardware to emulate - an impossible conversion for anyone to take on.

 

Harvey

OK, then forget Outrun, do Enduro Racer and Super Hang On, or a car racing game along the same lines.

[+Stephen]

Great American Cross Country Road Race with hills and forks in the road. Voila. Another instant classic.

[VladR]

Space Harrier is in the same hardware area as Enduro Racer and Super Hang On - whereas Out Run uses way too many sprites on screen for the A8 hardware to emulate - an impossible conversion for anyone to take on.

 

Harvey

Why does it have to be about sprites count?

 

Outrun's visuals are distinctively unique because of the alternating colored stripes and the red Ferrari.

 

So, even if there was just one tree sprite at any time, it still would feel like OutRun,as long as those two elements are preserved.

[popmilo]

How about an off-road 4x4 racer using one of those landscape fractal or voxel engines we've seen demos and games based on.

Guess how idea for voxel terrain in arsantica demo started

Imho you're right. A8 can do voxel terrain in good enough speed, even for a racing game.

[emkay]

Guess how idea for voxel terrain in arsantica demo started

Imho you're right. A8 can do voxel terrain in good enough speed, even for a racing game.

Imagine a GR. 10 game. all 4x4. Mirrored top and bottom, just some different colors.

Using the PMg bars for hardware masking, A racer game through a tunnel, with hidden enemies behind the next turning.

Interesting idea.

[Heaven/TQA]

How about an off-road 4x4 racer using one of those landscape fractal or voxel engines we've seen demos and games based on. Or even a road racer, using the fractal engine for road side landscaping, and color-cycling for a road...road side sprites wouldn't be needed as much with fractals/voxels wizzing by, and more could be dedicated to the cars/traffic/objects on the road.

Been there.... didnt I posted my voxel engine with a car sprite?

[gozar]

What's your opinion about this?

I was thinking and really can't decide...

 

I was never a fan of the arcade game, but that's not an option. :-)

 

I would rather have a version of the 2600 Enduro for the A8. A direct port would be nice, but I'm sure the computer can do it better. I'm quite surprised Activision never did an A8 port.

[Heaven/TQA]

Wasnt the enduro port The great American cross country road race???

[Schlortt]

 

IMO if a driving game is to be developed, Vroom is the one (or Lotus Esprit Turbo Challenge).

 

I hadn't seen Vroom before. When I watch videos of it, it is very interesting to me that most of the motion seems to be in the road and not on the road side. I realize that is somewhat of an illusion as there is shading an the perspective keeps changing, but solid colors sides and road could work.

 

I found this interesting on the old style racers:

http://www.extentofthejam.com/pseudo/

 

And then someone implemented the ideas in Javascript: https://codeincomplete.com/posts/javascript-racer/

 

When I look at the source for the Javascript and how many things are easily rendered and calculated with built in polygons or trig functions, it makes me appreciate the work of the 8 bit developers even more.

[Gunstar]

Guess how idea for voxel terrain in arsantica demo started

Imho you're right. A8 can do voxel terrain in good enough speed, even for a racing game.

My dream for a long time is a really good and unique racing game on the Atari 8-bit like, in game concept only, Amiga/ST Crazy Cars III or the original NEED for SPEED on the PC/3DO. where you outlaw race against one or more A.I. drivers, or alone against the clock, in both cases with traffic and occasional obstacles to aviod, and police watching out with radar and you either outrun them, or get pulled over for a ticket. Whether getting pulled over ends the race, or just wastes time, could be either way. Could do betting like Crazy Cars three or not, and it's just for best time and winning, like NEED for SPEED.

 

I think a voxel or fractal type landscape engine would be fantastic for this, with just an occasional roadside sprite, but mostly use hardware and software sprites for cars and obstacles on the road that is a twisting and turning, and straight way road segments of like that are several to a dozen or more miles in length each, that could move with color cycling to match the voxel/fractal landscape going by on the sides. The BBC/Atari 8-bit game E-Type by Fandal & Irgendwer also does it this way with the different courses averaging about 10 miles each. Actually that's the distance you have to travel before time runs out, you also get bonus time and it just keeps going until you run out. Though that is just you and random traffic, on a clock counting down and you run police down to gain more time.

 

But that's my dream type of racing game on the 8-bit, whether done in a way, graphically as Space Harrier does it or with a voxel/fractal engine and color-cycling road with sprites. Just make it so it takes advantage of what we already know the Atari can do, and not try to make a game "fit" into the Atari like a square peg in a round whole, shaving it down until we can squeeze it in.

 

If it is done in the ways Atari can do it best, game engine and graphics built for the Atari hardware using new innovative ways that are already proven on the Atari in other games and demos, it could be another draw-dropping surprise master piece for the Atari that puts other 8-bits to shame just like Space Harrier, Stunt Car Racer, Atari-blast, [insert other Atari ground-breaking title from recent years here] (And only AtariBlast was made FOR the Atari, those others were still ports done using the Atari to it's full potential!)

 

But I would not stop at just these possibilities for a racing game, there are other graphic effects the Atari does well that I think could be used for games instead of just demos. Like many demos from recent years that have textured GTIA/Mixed mode tunnel effects that would make a wonderful backdrop and course for a game like S.T.U.N Runner or flying through the tunnels "3D" shooter with scaling sprites. And no, I'm not saying make S.T.U.N Runner "work" on an Atari in this manner, but an original game of the same concept made for the Atari.

 

More games that use engines like Yoomp! for racing, or shooters, or obstacle course game like Yoomp!.We've had multi-directional scroller/scaler effects in demos for years, like the chessboard ones, why not use them in a 360 degree over-head multi-directional shooter or racer.

Or when the chess board scales and zooms in and out and you go flying through it in the demo, that could be used for a "3D" shooter game with an obstacle course to fly through, even a chessboard-like grid would be amazing if you controlled left right, up and down and had to fly through the empty squares in the board and avoid the full ones, while shooting at enemies or whatever.

 

I see so much potential for game possibilities with amazing graphic effects that the Atari can do in so many demos, but so rarely do they seem to be put to practical use in games. Yes, I am sure some are completely taxing the Atari already and there isn't a cycle left to ad in game-play and A.I., sprites, etc., but some of them the Atari can do without breaking a sweat leaving plenty of cycles for everything else.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Gunstar

[emkay]

I see so much potential for game possibilities with amazing graphic effects that the Atari can do in so many demos, but so rarely do they seem to be put to practical use in games. Yes, I am sure some are completely taxing the Atari already and there isn't a cycle left to ad in game-play and A.I., sprites, etc., but some of them the Atari can do without breaking a sweat leaving plenty of cycles for everything else.

That's why raster tricks have to be used whenever possible. The more essential part is to have coders wanting to do that type of games. The chance is very low, just like zero and it ends in a real contradiction, as most coders only use the Atari to recreate stuff as done on the C64. In a logical way this means, there will be no coder on the Atari side, doing those "3D" games particular using the best solution for the Atari, because the features were contradictions.

[Gunstar]

Been there.... didnt I posted my voxel engine with a car sprite?

If you did, I missed it.

[Gunstar]

IMHO, the lower resolution GTIA modes have been neglected for fast and smooth "3D" games whether it is sprite based or voxels, fractals, color-cycling and scrolling techniques. The speed and smoothness, and more colors available, easily make up for the low resolution, especially for games that are scaling sprites or or other type of faux 3D where everything is scaling toward you and the feeling of speed and fast action more than make up for it. Again, back to Space Harrier as an example of this. even though it's using one of Antic's lower graphic modes, IIRC. But so are the Lucasfilm games and they are using GTIA modes in at least the case of Koronis Rift. Not for an example of speed, mind you, but an example of lower resolutions being acceptable. Sysnapse's Dimension X from way back when, Elektra Glide is another rare example that could be expanded and improved today probably.

 

And obviously the lower resolutions also free up a lot of cycles since there is a lot less pixels to draw on the screen, so it opens up possibilities for more moving objects and faster animation.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Gunstar

[José Pereira]

O.K., so after a weekend put things all together...

 

-> Starting with the original Out Run version on the C64 and why is it without the sides?

The answer is that they are using all the cars less ours as software sprites and at the top the mountains and clouds as hardware sprites gets it simple that gfxs go over without maskings in software.

So what they have is their colourmap colours in the road white/black lines while the stripes 2colours and black on the and cars are their 3 per char in all screen colours (a IRQ change on eof the stripes colour on the sky).

Like I said, all the enemy cars are software sprites so they (and the gfxs at the sides just zoom in char boundaries) and each main colour of them (like green, purple, cyan, white,...) are the colourmap 1 own colour per type of gfxs/char(s).

The turns of the road are also 'their usual way' in charmode/char boundaries.

 

 

-> And what could we do on A8 to have it similar as C64?

Going the same way in charmode (ours Gr.12/Antic4) but we can have like this:

3 in all chars colours:

BAK: sky and DLIs for the road stripes;

PF0: black;

PF1: white;

1 own colour per gfxs/char(s):

PF2: change according to the sides gfxs;

PF3: yellow (in all the game because I need it to be used in 5th Player mode on the car);

 

At the top and bottom staus areas is 1charset and lets see if 1 also for sky and road (or 1per each of these 2) because is always 1type of gfxs on the sides each time (palm disappear then next is, for example, a house or a rock...).

At the top we'll use Prior4 to have the balloons letters in different colours and also mountains and clouds, though these last ones I'm not showing here by now (like the C64 is using hardware sprites on these) and our car at the bottom is also PMGs (same as in C64) but in Prior1 because it always goes in front of the othe other cars or at the sides of them (this way we only move PGs left and right ) and no aditional unusefull code in software ):

Our car doesn't need to be all that wide as in the C64 that is much more wider than the other cars .

Indeed and if you see The Sega's Master System console version you get that the cars are the width of ours about 2 or 3Players wideand that is why they have it like arcade with sometimes the road with the possibility of having 3 or 5road ways and C64 doesn't (and in only 256pixels (indeed because of the way they deal with the Horizontal Hardware Scrolling 248pixels):

 

Regarding our car I could get all the Master System's frames and I see it possible to have it like this using the PMGs in Priority1 for our car:

- P0+P1+P2 is the dark colour (mainly on the contours): I prefered it as colour (E2) so it's be different/distinnguish from the the other cars;

- P3 in quadruple width is covered by the previous ones that have higher priority;

- The 4Missiles are in double width and 5th Player Mode then taking the PF3 colour that is yellow;

Then the other cars can be each:

- PF0&PF1: black and white;

- PF2orPF3: any colour (main colour of the sides gfxs) and other(s) yellow;

 

Here's some examples that resumes all this:

 

P.s.- I'm using here 40Bytes wide Mode and 32Bytes would look bad but if 48Bytes can be if we have cpu/cycles available is certainly the best choice. And what C64 would never get it possible ).

 

EDITED: And when pressing the brakes is of course also possible with, maybe similar to C64, having the PMGs different coloured and double width down the bottom part of our car:

Edited January 14, 2019 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

And from the votings I now think that the best is start without the sides ground in different colour but believe me that the post above already have things so that next I'll post with them ...

I don't know if it'll be today .

Edited January 14, 2019 by José Pereira

[Gunstar]

Well, it certainly looks better with the color-cycling (I'm assuming) landscape stripes than just one solid color. That makes a big difference to me in how it looks in lieu of different color road sides.

 

Though I'm not a fan of the style of art you are using, it's too Nintendo cutesy-kid looking for me; I'm expecting Mario to come racing up from behind in is go-kart. I'd try to stick closer to the Master System's graphic look.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Gunstar

[José Pereira]

And forgot to say that (it seems also to be the same on C64) they can have many cars and sides gfxs because they'll zoom and are placed in (x,y) boundaries so are just put them over (00)/replace a coomplete char(s) that is quick, easy and not much cpu/cycles involving (and that is why sometimes on C64 there's some colour clashes between cars and the sides gfxs but is acceptable because it runs very fast and is almost unnoticeable):