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What would a modern TOS look like today?


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Reminiscing a bit today and just watched a Atari video on YouTube. Oh I how miss the 80s and early 90s when Atari was still alive.

 

Made me think... if Atari kept alive and was still making computers today, what would our OS look like?

 

Would it carry on the same looks and feels that GEM had or have evolved into what we see today on most all Windows/Mac/Linux OSes. Or maybe something unique that no one has thought of as of yet?

 

I was born and raised an Atarian but really left mid 90s after Atari died. Professionally I needed to get work done and the Mac OS won me over. I hated Windows.

 

Today I use both Mac and Linux at home.... professionally and for home use, but also as a hobby started exploring Amiga OS around 2009/2010. I am an owner and user of the AmigaOne systems (X5000 which is an 2GHz PPC system) that runs Amiga OS 4, and this platform offers me the closest feel of the days of Atari for me.

 

Although I wish that there was a modern equivalent of an Atari that was about the same power as the AmigaOne platform, there is just not. At least with AmigaOne I could probably be about 2/3 there to get all I needed done for work and pleasure, where the most powerful TOS based system has no chance. Just the way these two hobby platforms are today. I mean I can browser fairly modern websites, quickly, not perfect but decent. Can playback decent quality video, store my music collection, use some decent apps that can help me get work done.

 

Would be cool if TOS evolved more like the Amiga OS did and that we could be in the same arena.... as I would buy a unique system like that in a heartbeat...

 

Anyway, just dreaming today is all.

 

I need to find and buy me a Falcon. I owned one once... sold it... kick myself for doing it but job issues and money made me had to sell off some goodies. I will see a Falcon again one day!

 

TJ

Edited by AtariSociety
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It would be really cool if someone did a mock-up like some people do when imagining what a new version of macOS or iOS will look like.

 

I also regret selling my Falcon. I had a TT at one time as well *sigh*. Those, along with a Jaguar CD were, in retrospect, really dumb to let go of.

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TOS is more creation of Digital Research than of Atari inc.

Main diff. in compare with modern OS is single task vs. multi tasking. Atari/DR worked on it, but that was just too late, as many things overall. Not only because lower sales around 1992. Some others did multitasking much earlier.

 

Personally I don't see that there is some big diff. between some Windows, Mac, Linux in way how to use, work with it. All it is still based on same mouse control as it was more than 30 years ago. And I would add OS2 here, something what is forgotten. It had some innovative solutions, but IBM, it seems just did not push it enough hard. There was for instance pretty good speech control, more than 20 years ago.

 

And what OP talked about - like WEB browsing, watching videos - those are not really performed by OS. Surely OS needs some support for it, but it goes via specialized SW. All in all. this thread is not about OS self, but about that some people do not see what is actually done, available. There are TOS inspired modern OS variants like Mint and others. Maybe real problem of OP is that he despises PC :)

 

The real question here is: could be classic TOS (to call it so) good base for some modern OS - considering look and feeling ? I say yes. Actually, someone could make Windows theme for that. Or Mac, I guess. Or Linux. Then problem is solved :)

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TOS would be like Mac OS - an offshoot of Linux. It was pretty much headed that way before the fall.

 

It was hardly an "offshoot" of Linux, but heavily based on UNIX. But yes, I imagine it wouldn't be much of a departure in aesthetics from Mac OS or Windows in their current states.

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That is a fact... I hate Windows. LOL.

 

I should have added the word Atari TOS Platform or something to my original post.

 

All I want is an Uber Super TT-Falcon running quad PPC at 2GHz TOS system and that there were modern variants to needed apps like full web browser, office type suite, video editing software to keep up with all the video production online, with great gaming, great music apps.

 

That is all.

 

hehe

 

TJ

Maybe real problem of OP is that he despises PC :)

 

The real question here is: could be classic TOS (to call it so) good base for some modern OS - considering look and feeling ? I say yes. Actually, someone could make Windows theme for that. Or Mac, I guess. Or Linux. Then problem is solved :)

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That is a fact... I hate Windows. LOL.

 

I should have added the word Atari TOS Platform or something to my original post.

 

All I want is an Uber Super TT-Falcon running quad PPC at 2GHz TOS system and that there were modern variants to needed apps like full web browser, office type suite, video editing software to keep up with all the video production online, with great gaming, great music apps.

 

That is all.

 

hehe

 

TJ

 

PPC would be a dead end. Would be preferable to have it ARM-based.

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PPC is obsolete and abandoned by Apple years ago.

I tell ya something about needed CPU power for some up to date video watching: full HD, so 1920x1080 video with h265 (HEVC) codec playback is very demanding , But it is standard now. Even my Philips TV supports it - and even at 50 fps - what is for instance way too much for some 2.7 GHz dual core Intel with SSE (about 9 years old) . But is too much for some quad core smartphone CPU (ARM based) at 1.3 GHz too.

Even WEB browsing is now very demanding - what is for sure result of making it intentionally that. New HW must be sold. For instance, 1 GB of RAM is simply not enough for newer Firefox - it will constantly drive hard disk, and all will be very slow. "Full WEB browser" - no such thing. It changes all time, and SW must be regularly updated. I tried some older Linux distro, about 7 years old, with it's Firefox, and that was completely useless with most of current WEB pages.

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I am ok with dead-end... as in the end all are dead-end. Some just sooner than others.

 

and I think 2 dead-ends make a right. hehe

 

I am OK with ARM too, but is my feeling PPC still has some life.

 

TJ

 

 

 

IBM Power 8 isn't dead. It's just not coming to a desktop anytime soon.

 

ARM is ultimately going to crush everything unless China embraces, I dunno, MIPS or Power 8, and then in an effort to control their entire domestic market, adopts it in order to spite Intel/AMD and ARM...

 

Hell, China could go BSD for the very same reasons mentioned above. You just don't know, especially with perceived inevitabilities.

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There is contradiction in what OP says. Once talking about 'has some life', then "full web browser, office type suite, video editing software to keep up with all the video production online, with great gaming," .

 

Even old C64 has still life. You can use original, if can find it workable, or fix it. Can get diverse clones. Point is not at all in power, but in SW base available. And SW base even increases - still some new, mostly games. Same stays for Spectrum and many other popular oldies.

What I consider as very bad idea, or maybe just as irresponsible dreaming :) is coming with ideas about 34 years old OS, and how it would look ... if ... How good would be some new powerful PPC ...

Everything happens with reason. Every mistake is punished in big business. It is merciless, and only strongest and cruel survive. But maybe most important thing is need for constant change, progress. Progress in computing power. And it happens, even if CPU clocks reached top with silicon technology. We really can not know what CPU basic design will prevail in some 5 years from now. What is sure is that it needs lot of money, and only way to get money are sales.

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  • 7 months later...

I think it would have been handy if, had they been in a position to do so, Atari had taken on BeOS as the OS. Although, as I understand it, TOS is the underlying OS layer and GEM is the visual portion.

 

As far as processors go, I imagine Atari would have switched to Intel as some point or another. Or, maybe not, if Blue Sky managed to create some interesting things.

 

Anyway, BeOS kind of lives on in Haiku. If the current Atari can manage to come out with their AMD-based VCS, I would give Haiku a whirl on it to see if it worked. I might even go through the trouble of changing the Haiku logo into a Fuji. If someone wanted to see about making a dream ST with ARM, there's a port in progress for that.

 

If anyone is curious, somebody, at some point, had thought about doing an Atari Falcon port of Haiku.

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I would also be very interesed to see what it would look like. With MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 (I'd really really like an Amiga X5000!!) developing through the 90s to today, it would have been SO nice if TOS had developed similarly in the same time period. They probably could have helped each other, which might have resulted in some interesting alternatives to modern (boring) OSses... I do have a Falcon for sale if you still want one.... Been thinking about it for 5 years, and I think it's time to give someone else the opportunity to experience one as I have...

Perhaps, some day, a used and working X5000... Hmm.. With FPGA expansion busses, I love it.. 

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On 1/18/2019 at 7:02 AM, stirrell said:

It would be really cool if someone did a mock-up like some people do when imagining what a new version of macOS or iOS will look like.

 

I also regret selling my Falcon. I had a TT at one time as well *sigh*. Those, along with a Jaguar CD were, in retrospect, really dumb to let go of.

 

It's oddly a little reassuring to hear this. I did exactly the same so now I don't feel QUITE as bad as I did ;) :( 

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On 8/31/2019 at 3:05 PM, Struisvogel said:

I would also be very interesed to see what it would look like. With MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 (I'd really really like an Amiga X5000!!) developing through the 90s to today, it would have been SO nice if TOS had developed similarly in the same time period. They probably could have helped each other, which might have resulted in some interesting alternatives to modern (boring) OSses... I do have a Falcon for sale if you still want one.... Been thinking about it for 5 years, and I think it's time to give someone else the opportunity to experience one as I have...

 Perhaps, some day, a used and working X5000... Hmm.. With FPGA expansion busses, I love it.. 

 

TOS on its own wasn't developed, but MiNT was. 

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Here's your modern TOS desktop....

 

beykeyb8.jpg

 

FreeMiNT was in open source development since the 90's and it, along with EmuTOS, is complete.  And it can run on other computers using the Aranym virtual machine that runs on top of Linux or MacOS.

 

To run it on a PC, Mac or RPi you can get BeeKey or BeePi and put it on a flash drive or SD card.

 

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18 hours ago, MrMaddog said:

Here's your modern TOS desktop....

 

beykeyb8.jpg

 

FreeMiNT was in open source development since the 90's and it, along with EmuTOS, is complete.  And it can run on other computers using the Aranym virtual machine that runs on top of Linux or MacOS.

 

To run it on a PC, Mac or RPi you can get BeeKey or BeePi and put it on a flash drive or SD card.

 

i've not tried the BeeKey in ages, but I did setup my old Mac Mini with EasyAraMint. It was a dream setup which I really loved. Philippe did a wonderful job https://ataricrypt.blogspot.com/2017/05/easyaramint.html and I think this is just how a modern Atari OS would look.  In fact, I remember that I broke that installation, so I'm gonna download it again and give my old machine a reason to live! Thanks!! :D

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The answer to that question depends a lot on whether e.g. Motorola would have continued to develop the 68K line with demand from Atari (or Amiga). Usage-wise systems like Magic and other accessories added stuff known from other platforms (like system-wide copy/paste) which would probably have become standard OS functions over time. Given the few OS improvements between ST and TT the real answer probably is that Atari wasn't really interested in improving their OS beyond bugfixes. Even NeoDesk could do more than TOS 3.06 IIRC.

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On 9/3/2019 at 6:59 PM, MrMaddog said:

Here's your modern TOS desktop....

 

beykeyb8.jpg

 

FreeMiNT was in open source development since the 90's and it, along with EmuTOS, is complete.  And it can run on other computers using the Aranym virtual machine that runs on top of Linux or MacOS.

 

To run it on a PC, Mac or RPi you can get BeeKey or BeePi and put it on a flash drive or SD card.

 

 

Well, in my experience, BeePi is great, but the Raspberry Pi 3 SD card access is very slow, which affects the performance overall (which is no fault of Phillppe - it's a hardware limitation). 

 

Now, the Pi 4 is supposed to be improved in this regard, so I am exciting to see how BeePi can perform on it.  I can assume BeeKey is only limited by the host system, but I don't care to have another PC set up for it.  I like the small form factor of the Pi.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/8/2019 at 3:06 PM, Christos said:

The main problem with a modern atari is would be that many of the core concepts of GEM were flawed and i don't know how much of it would be fixable without breaking compatibility.

 

As GEM/TOS evolved, a "Compatibility Mode" could have been added with emulation. Perhaps this would have been done with a move from 68K to x86 cpu's

With the release of Geniva/NeoDesk code, and someone else currently testing a new merged TOS 1.4/1.62/2.06 best features ROMs we might be able to get something very interesting going.

I like the mention of an ST/TT/Falcon desktop theme for current OS's.

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On 8/27/2019 at 5:43 PM, mrentropy said:

I think it would have been handy if, had they been in a position to do so, Atari had taken on BeOS as the OS.

That would have been fantastic - BeOS had a lot of the spirit of 16-bit home computer OSes in it.  Three things would need to have happened for that to take place, though:

  • Atari would need to have continued manufacturing computers past 1993.  Obvious, I know, but worth stating.
  • The ST/TT/Falcon would need to have moved off of the 68K architecture and onto PPC, since BeOS never ran on 68K.
  • BeOS would have needed to mature more rapidly.  It wasn't really 100% ready for prime time until R4 in late 1998, even though it had been publically-available since 1995-ish.  That said, R4.5 and R5 made some significant advances over R4 right up through the end of Be in 2001.

If the Falcon had been the end of the 68K Ataris, with the next generation moving onto PPC (which is effectively what Apple did with their range about a year or so after the Falcon's demise), Atari might have bought themselves time.  But it seems unlikely given changes in the computing market; more on that further down.

On 8/27/2019 at 5:43 PM, mrentropy said:

 

Although, as I understand it, TOS is the underlying OS layer and GEM is the visual portion.

That loosely describes the architecture of BeOS as well, though it has different approaches to TOS regarding how certain parts of its API depend on the kernel and / or external libraries, etc.  Not unexpected, though.

On 8/27/2019 at 5:43 PM, mrentropy said:

 

As far as processors go, I imagine Atari would have switched to Intel as some point or another. Or, maybe not, if Blue Sky managed to create some interesting things.

That likely would have been inevitable (as it was for BeOS); the Atari PC really made that clear.  Unfortunately, those were also machines made by a company struggling to figure out how to survive in a landscape which was rapidly shifting away from home computers and onto PCs.  It's an interesting 'what-if' scenario, but that could lead to going down many, many rabbit holes.

 

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