Side 2 or AtariMax 8 Meg Flash Cartridge...

[Gunstar]

I just double-checked the Sys-check manual and I was right, it does generate it's own Phi2 signal. Which as I said, is why the system became more stable when I started using Sys-check regularly with SSDX cart &MyIDE 2 cart and not less. The reason it was included was for sram stability, not necessarily for system stability, but it works for that too, at least on my system.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Gunstar

[flashjazzcat]

Yes: I saw an HCT123 on the board when I looked there. It may aid stability but if you're still having issues, my original assesment of high bus capacitance stands.

[DavidMil]

 

What do you want to do with your Atari? :-)

 

To be honest, I'm trying to justify to myself a need for a Side2. It's something I've wanted for awhile. I think I'll print out a big picture of

one and put it on my wife's keyboard with a hint about a birthday present. No, wait, that won't work; my birthday is in November...

Guess I'll get one with my tax return. I do like all the options that Side2 makes available!

 

David

[Marius]

@David but going for just the side2 without u1mb might not be the best choice. Or have you plans to go for one with u1mb?

 

Edits: fixed the results of autocorrection

Edited February 19, 2019 by Marius

[gozar]

 

To be honest, I'm trying to justify to myself a need for a Side2. It's something I've wanted for awhile. I think I'll print out a big picture of

one and put it on my wife's keyboard with a hint about a birthday present. No, wait, that won't work; my birthday is in November...

Guess I'll get one with my tax return. I do like all the options that Side2 makes available!

 

David

 

Order a U1M too. :-)

[DavidMil]

 

Order a U1M too. :-)

 

Ohh yes!

 

David

[Gunstar]

Yes: I saw an HCT123 on the board when I looked there. It may aid stability but if you're still having issues, my original assesment of high bus capacitance stands.

I received my new flash chip today for the SSDX cart, and everything has been perfectly stable and working perfectly after several hours of use. The thought has occurred to me though, that if issues with too much on the buss were prevalent, then wouldn't people have been having issues for years with devices such and the MIO or Blackbox, etc. and the 1090, if produced would have had issues with high buss capacitance too? Especially if they were connected and then SDX carts with piggy-backing carts, etc., used with those other devices on the buss? Or have there been issues all along and I just never heard of them? Anyway, thanks for your help and insights.

 

Now I'm going to test things out without the Sys-check on the buss and without it's PHI2 signal and see if any issue pop up for me that way, or if it's all perfectly stable and my problem all along was a slowly failing flash chip.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Gunstar

[flashjazzcat]

People have been plagued with bus capacitance issues on the A8 for years as amply documented on this forum. ICD used to offer to fine tune your Atari to work stably with the MIO. The old MYIDE carts required numerous bodges to work at all. Rapidus machines with U1MB and other devices on the bus may require EXTSEL and and timing fixes. There are even machines which have trouble running the UNO Cart (so I hear).

 

Glad that the new flash ROM appears to have improved things, anyway.

[_The Doctor__]

the big issue was timing with whatever 74xx08 bodge they used during production using whatever happens to be around each chip had slightly different timing and drive capabilities, add that with capacitance from a stack of add ons and you get the whole round and round issue as folks chase their tails turning it into some sort of major mystery... then add that to all the different revisions of the XL/XE boards and you have people selecting the wrong fix for each as the read what worked for this or that guy.... add to that transcription errors as folks typed it out and put it on this sheet or that sheet and this bbs or that bbs or this news group user letter or that...

 

no one has ever sat down and showed what fix for what board and proved it out with a scope... we could do so today... the big issue is timing and drive being the foremost issue, noise, static and mass (aka shielding) and capacitance. Usually once the correct fix is implemented and everything is clean and connected properly the capacitance issues lessens to a non issue. I have had to replace single swipe crap sockets to alleviate issues. The socket adds resistance and sometimes capacitance to already finicky chips that are affected by such things. They are happy in default use but carry on when a few things are added on the bus. When you fix the timing/drive, and use quality sockets, cleaning everything spotless and beefing up some thin or weak traces, keeping shielding and mass, removing only the caps on the sio lines that matter etc.. You will find the Atari tolerates a heck of alot more abuse on the buss and you have less jail bar video issues as well.

 

I have a few MIO's with the caps. tuned as fjc noted... but adding the original power supply design back in and doing the appropriate fix for the board in question always worked better that cap tuning the MIO itself. I know Kyle is as sick of MIO repair.

[Gunstar]

This is why my 1200XL with the PBI is stable then, with SSDX, MyIDE 2 and Sys-check 2 all on the buss. Because I've already replaced all the single swipe sockets with precision ones, changed out all the 74LS chips for better 74HC chips, restored the majority of my shielding since doing the PBI upgrade, have an original PSU with 3.4 amps, unlike the usual 1.5 amp PSU's XL/XE's with factory PBI's have, cleaned everything extensively, installed fixes for PHI2 signals (which I had to extrapolate from several fixes for other XL/XE boards from fixes documented on the Internet), replaced original caps, and SIO fixes/mods and pretty much everything else you mention.

 

FJC is probably unaware I've done all of this already, as I was vague about it just mentioning that I'd already taken care of PHI2 signal issues. Though I did briefly mention all of that in my 1200XL PBI mod thread/blog on Atari Sector, after having initial issues. Though I could be mistaken and mentioned it in other thread conversations, not that I expect him to follow or read every post I make anyway. So that's on me.

 

But as I said, I hadn't heard of issues with MIO's and such, but that's probably because I never owned any of those legacy PBI devices to have a need to find out about these issues. but I already knew I'd be better off, after the extensive mods, upgrades and PBI addition to do all of that anyway.

 

Although regardless if these issues are "amply documented on this forum" finding all these old threads where such things have been documented is a whole other issue anyway...where he seems to think I should have already been aware of it all regardless, from that choice of wording, when I'd never had a reason before to follow such threads in the past nor have time to follow every thread that goes through here everyday for the past 18 years. Not to mention a couple years here and there where I wasn't following the happenings of the A8 forum at all. Though I get a little bit "snippy" when my knowledge of things is questioned too, so I don't blame him if that was the case.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Gunstar

[_The Doctor__]

I sometimes forget such things myself, I get snippy and expect folks to know what I think they should either because I know it or it's been on a forum somewhere or even here, you know the whole use the search or google or whatever is in my head... but then sometimes when I am all worked up I find I can't find something myself as the wording situation or what not seems to either match absolutely nothing or darn near everything. I think to myself... am I that person I was just annoyed with the other day?

 

sometimes the hct variety are a little slow, as you, I, or someone else has notated over the ages.. the ACT variety seem to cover all the bases....

 

I take it with all you've noted you prolly did all of bob's suggested 1200XL tweaks, in respect to grounding and the cart port etc... among others....

 

Glad to hear you issue was resolved as far as the flash goes.

Some of the flash chips I've encountered over the years have been stressed or barely working, it's strange... I have a router whose flash is wonky (I think it took an ESD and now it's got noise issues, and drawing more than it should) I have to power cycle it when it's brain scrambles or overdraws. I have to decide if I want to replace it's flash chip or just replace it with something way better in all respects.

 

I have replace the flash chip in a MyIDE or two over the years and it sorted problems out for them, I think the flash chips are recycled in first place so it happens you get some that are marginal and issues ensue... If that doesn't cut it, well it's back to the tried and true... sort out the machine it's used with..

[Gunstar]

 

 

I take it with all you've noted you prolly did all of bob's suggested 1200XL tweaks, in respect to grounding and the cart port etc... among others....

 

 

Yes.

[flashjazzcat]

FJC is probably unaware I've done all of this already, as I was vague about it just mentioning that I'd already taken care of PHI2 signal issues. Though I did briefly mention all of that in my 1200XL PBI mod thread/blog on Atari Sector, after having initial issues. Though I could be mistaken and mentioned it in other thread conversations, not that I expect him to follow or read every post I make anyway. So that's on me.

The fact the sockets have been replaced and Phi2 fixes have (apparently) already been implemented doesn't make much difference: the machine was unstable and it was going to be bus timing/capacitance or some property of one of the external devices like the flash chip anyway. The idea that prepping the machine makes it completely immune to such things (or indeed that 74HC is the magical fix-all for everything) and thus allows the elaborate rebuttal of a general diagnosis is a little amusing. It doesn't matter what I'd already read or handn't, I'd still have said:

 

As I say: you have enough stuff there to cause timing issues, although flash chips can indeed change the behaviour of the system, as can anything connected to the bus, I guess. Whether things are on the PBI connector or the cartridge connector doesn't make any difference, since you'll see that the address and data lines for both are all connected together at the CPU.

---

 

Although regardless if these issues are "amply documented on this forum" finding all these old threads where such things have been documented is a whole other issue anyway...where he seems to think I should have already been aware of it all regardless, from that choice of wording, when I'd never had a reason before to follow such threads in the past nor have time to follow every thread that goes through here everyday for the past 18 years. Not to mention a couple years here and there where I wasn't following the happenings of the A8 forum at all. Though I get a little bit "snippy" when my knowledge of things is questioned too, so I don't blame him if that was the case.

I sometimes forget such things myself, I get snippy and expect folks to know what I think they should either because I know it or it's been on a forum somewhere or even here, you know the whole use the search or google or whatever is in my head... but then sometimes when I am all worked up I find I can't find something myself as the wording situation or what not seems to either match absolutely nothing or darn near everything. I think to myself... am I that person I was just annoyed with the other day?

As for finding material on the forum and stability issues being 'amply documented': there's no need for either of you to get salty, although I realise the temptation is hard to resist when the opportunity presents itself. When I say things are amply documented on the forum, I am suggesting one goes away and reads it in order to corroborate some of my asserions. I was not being 'snippy' or complaining that all the information hadn't already been digested. But wait a minute...

 

This is why my 1200XL with the PBI is stable then, with SSDX, MyIDE 2 and Sys-check 2 all on the buss. Because I've already ... installed fixes for PHI2 signals (which I had to extrapolate from several fixes for other XL/XE boards from fixes documented on the Internet), replaced original caps, and SIO fixes/mods and pretty much everything else you mention.

So, despite complaining that 'he seems to think I should have already been aware of it all regardless, from that choice of wording, when I'd never had a reason before to follow such threads in the past nor have time to follow every thread that goes through here everyday for the past 18 years', you're familiar not only with the full range of 1200XL fixes, but have even researched fixes for other XL/XE machines and leveraged those fixes on the 1200XL. I assume you therefore knew WHY you were doing the Phi2 fix and the kinds of instability issues it would hopefully mitigate?

 

So: on the one hand, my pointing out that bus capacitance issues are amply documented on the forum means I'm being harsh, snappy and using the wrong wording, but on the other hand you not only apparently know exactly what I'm referring to anyway but have previously researched the matter yourself and gone ahead and put Phi2 fixes on the machine in the apparent belief it makes it resistant to the issues I was talking about in the first place.

 

LOL.

[Marius]

Like everybody else here I have had my share of Ph2 issues myself. At a certain level I tweaked and fixed one of my 800XL's in such a way that everything worked rock solid. This 800XL accepted every possible device plugged in PBI, Cartrdige, combinations of Syscheck, TurboFreezer, MyIDE, IDE+ ... it all worked excellent and even together with the U1MB. So wow I must have done the perfect job on fixing ph2 here.

 

And then suddenly I did some testing with SIDE2, using a different CF card. And seriously, all of the sudden all kind of shit happened again. Just the use one different CF card, caused all kind of crap in my system.

 

So although people might think they found the magic fix (like having as much as possible of the shielding there, installing precision sockets, replacing LS to HCT or whatever). It sure all can be great, but please do never think you have addressed it. Another 'misleading' part of the story is that modern firmwares and OS's do have all kind of error correction ( I know MyBIOS, IDE+ and U1MB PBI) do have, so you think: see this works fabulous, I found the holy PH2-fix grail.... but you can be tricked into thinking that.

 

Speaking of replacing TTL LS version to HCT... I have exact the opposite experience. It is not simply a fact of this works better than that. Another, but similar, example: back in the day when we did not have those fabulous SRAM, GAL based memory upgrades, we were stuck with DRAM/TTL based memory upgrades, which tend to add a lot of trouble in especially PAL XL computers. In XE it worked already better (probably because less TTL shit was needed, but also because of the already existent XE-MMU. Anyway, talking of XE. Back in the day I played a lot with XE memory upgrades and people kept telling me: the faster the DRAM the better it is.

So I bought a lot of FAST DRAM. And guess what: the faster the DRAM, the less stable it was (!). The faster the DRAM the faster it lost its contents and it turned out the Refresh rate of A8 (Antic) wasn't fast enough to keep the DRAM accurate. It should have been DRAM 120ns or slower. 120 and 150ns worked excellent. But the 70ns I bought were of no use.

 

I have been trying to fix several MyIDE's in the past. Here same story: in one MyIDE it was better to use the 'F' version, in another it was better to use the 'HCT' version and again in another the 'LS' version was better. I even created a fix where the CF-card reader had a pretty big MASS connector going back to the atari, which -of course- worked great on my XE, but failed in all the other XE's in the world. Finally a couple of smart guys found a real fix for MyIDE, using a latch, which fixed them all.

 

no one has ever sat down and showed what fix for what board and proved it out with a scope...

 

 

I could be wrong, but IIRC Bob Puff (from CSS, BlackBox) did that.

[_The Doctor__]

no Bob didn't do a run down for all boards...

 

I suggest ACT not HCT.

 

I wasn't salty, I was explaining how I can be snippy or have a tone that comes off wrong then see it when I am in a similar situation. Then I get attacked for it. Classic.

 

As for a cover of all the bases, it's worked so far, why wouldn't we do that? If everything works and someone comes across 1 piece that doesn't and it has problems on many other systems... I suspect that piece. Not the computer. Sounds crazy we know. As stated, if a swap of the flash or using a different cart of the exact same design works, maybe that cart is out of tolerance. As stated if something is marginal, either in the thing or the Atari, it needs replacing...

 

I still find it laughable that someone might think doing everything you can to make it as stable as possible along with some reasons to explain why for good measure could some how be a negative. There is a range of capacitive or drive issues that can exist. Make the tolerance as wide and accepting as possible is not a bad thing for the Atairs PCB, Now as to weather some home brew thing is designed and keep all parameters in an acceptable realm is quite another story. tiny traces to keep down cost, cheapest components from where ever barely in spec (or sometimes not) etc. Lot's of variables.....

 

As stated over the years folk choose what they needed based on what thing didn't work, and do whatever to make it happen. They never seem to look at the latest thing they bought as being at all responsible. I am glad he found the issue and fixed it. In the mean time since it's open why not do all the things that make it as good as it can be based on the revision of board.

 

Bob's fixes worked well enough to help some folks, save the error in it that was either a typo or mix up of board rev as outlined by a well know web sight that carries both the text of the fix and the notation of the error... but once again you are left to sort that out. For some it's fun to do, for others it's a source of madness

[Gunstar]

Yes, I'm laughable because I didn't make the connection of fixing internal PIH2 signal issues and timing issues of my DIY PBI with the suggestion of it being high capacitance issues from a bunch of stuff on the buss. I don't recall a mention anywhere in documented fixes I did of it being high capacitance issues. The fixes I did when reading up on them all spoke of PHI2 and timing issues, not high capacitance issues, I first heard/read this when you mentioned it in this thread FJC.

 

Also, none of the information I used for anything I ever did to my 1200XL came from information posted on this forum. My comment about difficulty finding information with searches on this forum was from experience in attempts to search for a wide variety of things, even when searching for threads I started as I don't recall exact wording I used for even my own thread titles sometimes. And even when I use my own handle as part of the search criteria, due to hundreds of my own threads over the years, it's still a difficult proposition at best. And with no idea at all what a possible thread title that someone else may have posted at some time in the past it becomes exponentially more difficult to look stuff up and then search through a 100 threads the search engine returns. Even with the help of the search engine it can still be like finding a needle in a haystack. I suspect this is true for many, which is why the forum has thousands of threads that are basicially repeats of other threads.

 

Forgive me for thinking you ever get snippy FJC, even though your very last post here saying where weren't getting snippy seems particularly snippy to me. I'm quite aware that I am being snippy right now.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

.

 

no Bob didn't do a run down for all boards...

 

I suggest ACT not HCT.

 

 

I think he's referring to the fact that I swapped in HCT for all the LS IC's. Which made a definite improvement in my case. Though I referred to them as 74HC, as I was ignorant of, or did not remember them being called HCT. I went that route because, IIRC, it's what was suggested in fix documents I used and often is suggested in many of the upgrades I've done, as being faster and with lower power consumption. There were times when it was recommended to use HCT, but that TTL LS IC's would probably be o.k., so I used TTL LS IC's because that is what I had on hand at the time, but then I had issues, and ended up changing to the HCT's recommended which did solve the issues. So later I just decided to replace all the TTL LS IC's for HCT ones and whether or not they improved things in every case I don't know, but they haven't caused any issues that I am aware of since doing that. Regardless of possible issues with high capacitance on the buss, since there had been no problem that I can tell in that regard from the beginning.

 

What I have come away with through all this is that yes indeed, there are no magical fixes for every Atari across the board, but in my particular case, with my particular 1200XL I agree with your assessment of what needs to be done to increase stability, because from personal experience it has worked for me. I also agree that if your system is stable except when using certain devices, that you look to that device as the culprit and not the system that has been stable until that device is introduced, or if it is stable with that device, but then starts exhibiting instability increasing over time, again, to look to that device failing and not the system having issues since they disappear when removing that device from the equation, which proved true once again in my case, since I replaced the flash chip and my system has been stable again since I did that. If the same issue starts to pop up again down the road, I'm going to look at that device again as the culprit, and failing flash or GAL chips in the device, if without it everything is stable once again.

 

If things remain unstable, then I will look to the system for something failing. I don't believe that high capacitance on the buss to necessarily be an issue if it wasn't there from the start! Which is exactly why I questioned FJC's determination from the start, which he chose to ignore or discount when I suggested it and continued to stick by his determination, whether he's knew what I had done to my system or not. And even after what I suggested was indeed the issue has been proven to be correct, in my case, he says "I'm glad it improved" my situation instead of outright admitting that I was right all along and it FIXED my issue completely. Though I am willing to admit that high capacitance on the buss may be a cause of the flash chip failure over time, and if that is true, it will probably happen again. But that's something I'm willing to live with.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

I of course hold no grudges with anyone when we disagree over these things, and I still hold FJC in high regard and respect his insights and knowledge, and am always thankful for any help he can give. I also do believe that I am more ignorant of these things than he, and that I learn a lot from him and others more knowledgeable than I in the community. And I am eternally grateful for his contributions to the community, that have helped me immensely on many occasions, without whom my Atari hobby would not be nearly as satisfactory as it is. I just wonder sometimes if he equates ignorance to a lack of intelligence, as from my personal experience a lot of people do.

 

If we equate our knowledge of this wonderful hobby, the same way as college degrees, where hardware is concerned I'd put myself, currently, at the level of an associate degree and a competent technician, FJC somewhere around a bachelor's or master's degree and the people who are actually creating the new hardware and modifications as having doctorates. On the software side, I'm in grade-school still, and FJC and others that do programming as having doctorates.

 

Of course I really do have an associates degree in electronics, and I'm sure others here really do have bachelor's, master's and doctorates. But I've never used my associates degree in the real world and I've probably forgotten as much over the years as I've learned while doing this hobby, at least on computers. But as my old professor always said, he'd trust and engineer that still refers to texts and schematics than someone who thinks they know enough to do it all out of their head. Which is why he always allowed text books and a page of notes for tests. He was an ex-NASA engineer. And no, he wasn't fired from NASA, he was retired.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Gunstar

[DavidMil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Side2 be a really fast and easy way to back up about 250 double sided (hand punched) floppies? Or is there an easier way?

Most of these disks have more than two or three games on each side.

 

David

[+Nezgar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Side2 be a really fast and easy way to back up about 250 double sided (hand punched) floppies? Or is there an easier way?

Most of these disks have more than two or three games on each side.

 

David

 

Side2 makes a quick way to boot up to a workable state where you can start copying files... EG my boot partition (D5:) has SCOPY and MYCOPYR in the root directory, so with 1 command I can immediately start doing sector copies from the real 1050 D1: to a RespeQt virtual D2:, or even just copy files directly using SpartaDOS from the floppies to a folder on a RAMdisk (D9:), or another partition (D6:,D7:)

 

SCOPY is nice to make SCP 'disk image' files within spartados on the SIDE2 without involving the PC. Later on I can SCOPY the SCP files back out to a real or virtual drive when the PC is on and connected.

 

Oh, and Side2 has a realtime clock too, so your files will even have accurate timestamps within spartados too, all self contianed. Get your PC time synced up to NTP, (verify with https://time.is/) then with AspeQt/RespeQt running, use the "ASPECL TO" command from SpartaDOS once in a while to set the SIDE2 clock from the PC, accurate to the second. Beats the old days I remember using a program that would modem dial long distance to NIST to set my R-Time8

[Gunstar]

I didn't make the connection of fixing internal PHI2 signal issues and timing issues of my DIY PBI with the suggestion of it being high capacitance issues from a bunch of stuff on the buss.

Just wanted to clarify my vague statement here: I was under the impression that PHI2 signal and timing issues was related to weak signal or loss of signal due to high resistance, and not due to high capacitance slowing down the timing on the buss.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Gunstar

[_The Doctor__]

Like all things, it's a mixture. It's all good. I am just glad to have all the different ideas and approaches to help solve/sort this stuff. No one person has all the answers but eventually we help each other out enough to get the job done

Edited February 22, 2019 by _The Doctor__

[flashjazzcat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Side2 be a really fast and easy way to back up about 250 double sided (hand punched) floppies? Or is there an easier way?

Most of these disks have more than two or three games on each side.

Nearly missed this amid the morass.

 

If you use SIDE on an U1MB machine, you can fill a FAT partition with suitably sized blank ATRs (using the PC's card reader), and then image the floppies using a sector copier. I recommend HDSC from the SDX Toolkit. The advantage of copying to FAT hosted ATRs is that writes happen at ~25KB/s depending on the disk density. Once the ATRs are done, you can run them direct from the U1MB SIDE loader, or copy them back onto the PC for archiving, etc.