Intellivision Amico - Tommy Tallarico introduction + Q&A

[+GrudgeQ]

38 minutes ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

 

If the controllers are limitations then they should re-think the controllers.  But I'm pretty sure Tommy doesn't see them as limitations.

Yes, I acknowledge constraints can inspire creativity.  You both have written "can" and not "will" because, I'd suggest, even subconsciously you know freedom inspires more creativity.

 

 

As I wrote above, limitations can cause creativity but to say that it's exciting and will lead to new genres seems a bit of a stretch.  That's not to say your couch co-op ideas combined with whatever innovations your controllers may bring won't bring on new games. But I believe if you thought the controllers were a limitations, they wouldn't be there.  I suspect they are enhancements to your console.

 

Do the commandments count as limitations? I guess, but they don't seem all that limiting considering the hardware and target audience.

 

I just don't see what's exciting about limitations.  Perhaps parents would be excited for 100% family-friendly content, sure.  But, the post came off a little overenthusiastic and perhaps desperate-sounding.  Like a car salesman saying, "This Yugo is under-powered and doesn't have a radio, power steering or comfortable suspension, but it's exciting you'll get creative with music and build up your forearms!"

 

In fact, I'm a bit surprised you even want to talk about limitations at all when the console is sounds very capable of doing the types of games you've envisioned on the system.  I don't see that as a bug, but a feature.  

 

I am using the term "limitation" because to a fixed mindset developer the controller, for example, is new and they are required to use it - they are limited to it and you know (horrors) it doesn't have dual analog sticks and such. As such it is "limited" and they must "fit" their game & ideas into the controller if they want to create a game for the system. This is one way to view the controller, the other is to view it as a new playground to express creativity - to have the user place their thumb on the disk and swing the controller back and forth like the pendulum of a clock (or some other crazy idea). I am sure this is the thought process IE is trying to bring out in it's developers - not just how to hack a game's controls into the system by using the disk as a D Pad replacement. This is the heart of what I am getting at. The same is true for multiplayer and the Karma engine - how do I take this single player game idea and make it multiplayer and/or dynamically balance the game play?

 

This also explains the "can" and "will" wording because not everyone is going to innovate on a new play field (new control elements) - some will, some won't.  That doesn't even mean they will make a bad game or it will have bad controls, just not an innovative ones (and that was what the original post was all about). The problem with "freedom inspires more creativity" statement *may* be true for some people in some circumstances but often restrictions brings creativity simply because the playing field is narrowed, Haiku being an example in poetry. Traditional poetry is also restricted to rhymes (limitations!) and while non rhyming poetry potentially provides more freedom it hasn't turned into a panacea fix the 'ills' of 'limited' poetry.

 

Every single console has has limitations - it is basically the definition of a console - a closed, fixed development environment. Saying that the differences of the Amico may product new types of games or new ways to play games is not unexpected considering consoles like the Wii have already existed and done that very thing.

 

And just in closing here are the first 5 Google results on the whole 'limited vs freedom' creativity argument. This isn't an unheard of idea from some gamers/developers who remember the days of highly restricted game development environments, and what was accomplished under them:

 

http://thewisdomdaily.com/in-writing-and-in-life-restriction-can-spark-growth-and-creativity/

https://buffer.com/resources/7-examples-of-how-creative-constraints-can-lead-to-amazing-work

https://www.fastcompany.com/3027379/the-psychology-of-limitations-how-and-why-constraints-can-make-you-more-creative

http://launchyourgenius.com/2013/05/13/creative-restrictions-9-action-tips-to-enhance-your-creativity/

http://web-docs.stern.nyu.edu/pa/sellier_dahl_creative_success.pdf

 

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by GrudgeQ

[Nolagamer]

30 minutes ago, Loafer said:

Secret of Monkey Island (tm) is my favorite graphic adventure game too.  I know these types of games probably don't fall into Amico territory because it's kind of single player experiences however I find these types of games are fun multiplayer games. Although my wife doesn't game at all anymore, back in the late 80's/early 90's, she played some of the Sierra games with me on the Amiga.  So in essence, there was almost like a "party" game because of the puzzle aspect.

 

The game was so innovative in how it approached the adventure tropes of its day and well, it was just so funny and you are right IM, the difficulty balance was PERFECT!  The sequel was awesome too.  I hope at some point, someone finds a way to make such humorous games again on modern platforms like the Amico.  It's a genre that is sadly forgotten and missed.

Who says that  this genre has to be limited to only single player??

[PlaysWithWolves]

44 minutes ago, IntelliMission said:

If anyone here has not played and finished The Secret of Monkey Island, go play it NOW (the original! This game must be played in pixelated 2D without voices. Avoid the remakes).

 

It is a perfect and rare example of how a game can be build around the story. Ron Gilbert said that the puzzles were designed so that the player could progress in the story, not to get the player stuck. The puzzles were created after the story, and the graphics was the last thing that they added.

 

But the good thing is that, being a good story with some great humor, it still feels like a game. I hate voices in graphic adventure games. This game doesn't try to be a movie. It is my favorite game of all time, also because graphic adventures are very easy to program technically but very hard when it comes to puzzle design.

 

You just told us how exciting it was that Amico would not have games like this!  Oh, my head ...

 

9 minutes ago, GrudgeQ said:

That doesn't even mean they will make a bad game or it will have bad controls, just not an innovative ones (and that was what the original post was all about).

 

The original post had nothing about controls.  Or controllers, for that matter.

[IntelliMission]

This is getting hilarious, I never thought saying "limitations can encourage creativity" would cause such a debate. Please, go on!😆

Edited September 24, 2019 by IntelliMission

[+GrudgeQ]

1 minute ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

The original post had nothing about controls.  Or controllers, for that matter.

I am using the controls as an example of one situation where a traditional developer might see not having double triggers and dual analog sticks as a "limitation".  I also mentioned other examples like making a game multiplayer or doing Karma balancing. YOU bought up the controller example in the your second post and so I was trying (obviously in vain) to explain what I meant by using that example.

 

No more posts on this subject by me - if I haven't explained myself well enough by now it isn't going to happen. However go read some of those articles, they are really good and may be enlightening.

[PlaysWithWolves]

21 minutes ago, IntelliMission said:

This is getting hilarious, I never thought saying "limitations can encourage creativity" would cause such a debate. Please, go on!😆

 

Sure, in a "war is peace" kind of way!  Does that mean criticism is compliments?

 

21 minutes ago, GrudgeQ said:

YOU bought up the controller example in the your second post and so I was trying (obviously in vain) to explain what I meant by using that example.

 

 

Le nope.  You literally brought up controllers-as-a-limitation a whopping two hours ago in response to my first post to Intellimision.

 

2 hours ago, GrudgeQ said:

I don't really agree. I am with IntelliMission that although limitations are seen as bad that situation can spark creativity to overcome the limitations. I would add the uniqueness of the controllers in there as a limitation too (I mean if you are used to an XBox style controller this is shock). It is is definitely going to be a challenge for developers and some are going to not do well with it. So this cuts both ways, but some may well invent or adapt game mechanics which are new and innovative, or new ways of story telling, explaining game mechanics, player interaction (because they are ALL couch coop games), etc. I mean you see this in VR games because the interface is so new. Some have amazing interfaces where they 'got it right' and some ruin good games with clunky control schemes. People are still innovating and learning (and failing - the other side of the coin) in that environment.

 

Just taking a look at the controller situation. Think of the Playdate, they added one new interface feature and most of the games are going to rely on the crank as a critical, unique play element. Also think of the Wii, motion controls were a game changer and introduced new kinds of game play. As did the Nintendo Zapper - people are still trying to bring back Duck Hunt in it's former glory with that unique input mechanism. Some people thrive on a challenge but most people shrink, those that thrive can do really interesting, new things.

 

I can't imagine Tommy liking all this talk of limitations.

[Blarneo]

12 hours ago, JeffVav said:

Totally share that pet peeve, which reminds me of another: logo screens you can't bypass. 

This is my pet peeve

[Loafer]

The devs who wouldn't like Amico controllers would probably be trying to shoe horn old style control instead of adapting.  This is where Intellivision entertainment, in their shepherd role, can ensure the devs "get" how to use the new controllers.

 

Historically in my 40 + years of video gaming, I'm a big believer in either the proven directional pad or a good old joysticks (and spinners... and trackballs... and lightguns…).  In saying that, until we see what Amico devs come up with, there's not much point in speculation in this area IMHO. For now, I trust in the Amico team that we will love the new controller and I'm ready to open up my perceptions to something new, just like I had to with their disc controller back in the day.  I mean it's not like I crowd funded the thing and their failure will have a direct impact on me financially. Rather they're confidence in their product without even receiving a dime from us gives me great optimism on the entire project.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Loafer

[Loafer]

18 minutes ago, Blarneo said:

This is my pet peeve

Loading screens suck but depending on how large the game is (large in data/textures, not "videos") that can affect the loading times to some extent.  I doubt we completely get away from that but Tommy's already said they are dialoging internally about this.  Def don't want to see a 20-30 second loading screen to get to the menu, then another 20-30 second to get to the game. Oh PSX, how I don't miss thee for this type of crapola

[Loafer]

2 hours ago, Nolagamer said:

Who says that  this genre has to be limited to only single player??

By design you usually only move 1 guy around the screen but yeah I totally realize you could be moving more than one character.  if a game is designed appropriately, multiplayer could be fantastic for puzzles (like two characters need to trigger a switch at the same time) but... gotta be careful there that you then can't play the game in single player mode too.  But yeah, for sure it's doable.  It's safe to wonder though if there is a market for such a multiplayer game.  Would love to see it though

[IntellivisionDude]

5 hours ago, Loafer said:

Well now, some games are story based so for SOME people, once they know the story, there's no incentive to replay it.

Depends on how good the story is. Some story games i have played a few times. It's like watching your favorite movie over and over.

[IntellivisionDude]

4 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

This is how I felt about Red Dead II.  LOVED the first one and although the 2nd one is so much more.  I didn't have as much fun, thought the controls were even more complex and frustrating, disliked the fact that I felt I needed to do everything the game wanted me to (in order to proceed) and after only 5 or 6 hours... I put it down and never played it again.

I struggled with this for awhile... but then simply decided... the game may have been BIGGER and more expensive... but for me... it didn't have the fun factor the first one did therefore in my eyes... it was a far less superior game IMHO.   I played the first one easily over 100 hours.  The 2nd one... 5 or 6. 

 

While i did have mixed opinions on Red Dead II i liked it enough to play it all the way through. There is some real cool extra stuff you can do like Fishing and Hunting for legendary animals. Take in a show in Saint Denis etc.

Some of the side missions were as fun as the main missions and there a ton of them.

 

Here is some highlights of one of my favorite streamers playing it. 

 

 

[vprette]

22 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

So far we don't have anything like that planned.

I dont see why Amico should have this kind of games

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by vprette

[mr_me]

2 hours ago, Loafer said:

...

Historically in my 40 + years of video gaming, I'm a big believer in either the proven directional pad or a good old joysticks (and spinners... and trackballs... and lightguns…).  In saying that, until we see what Amico devs come up with, there's not much point in speculation in this area IMHO. For now, I trust in the Amico team that we will love the new controller and I'm ready to open up my perceptions to something new, just like I had to with their disc controller back in the day....

The Amico controller is a disc controller; a proven directional pad.

[IntelliMission]

This is why I'm not interested in GTAV or RDR2. Too many things to do. It gets stressing. I would love a game with those graphics where you could only explore the scenery. Yeah, some kind of real walking simulation. Exploring is what is all about, these combat experiences feel forced. I rather play a short and original game than a neverending game with the same old mechanics.

 

About the Amico commandments, I would add two exceptions:

 

- All games must include multiplayer *except for point and click adventures

- No 3D controls *except for simple, E-Rated FPS games without the ability to look up and down

[Alpha82]

5 hours ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

 

If the controllers are limitations then they should re-think the controllers.  But I'm pretty sure Tommy doesn't see them as limitations.

Yes, I acknowledge constraints can inspire creativity.  You both have written "can" and not "will" because, I'd suggest, even subconsciously you know freedom inspires more creativity.

 

 

As I wrote above, limitations can cause creativity but to say that it's exciting and will lead to new genres seems a bit of a stretch.  That's not to say your couch co-op ideas combined with whatever innovations your controllers may bring won't bring on new games. But I believe if you thought the controllers were a limitations, they wouldn't be there.  I suspect they are enhancements to your console.

 

Do the commandments count as limitations? I guess, but they don't seem all that limiting considering the hardware and target audience.

 

I just don't see what's exciting about limitations.  Perhaps parents would be excited for 100% family-friendly content, sure.  But, the post came off a little overenthusiastic and perhaps desperate-sounding.  Like a car salesman saying, "This Yugo is under-powered and doesn't have a radio, power steering or comfortable suspension, but it's exciting you'll get creative with music and build up your forearms!"

 

In fact, I'm a bit surprised you even want to talk about limitations at all when the console is sounds very capable of doing the types of games you've envisioned on the system.  I don't see that as a bug, but a feature.  

 

Just my opinion but I think limitations is the wrong word just because the system is not as powerful as other systems on the market doesn’t really mean it’s limited to me it depends on how you look at the system goals. As an example when AtariBox was first announced they said it would compete with modern systems however now we know it only comes with a 32 gig hard drive and you have to add a second os if you want to add other games not offered in the store I know they since changed their tune on the system but that to me is a limited system for the original purpose.

 

In contrast Intellivision has consistently said they don’t want to compete but be different and focus instead not on being a graphics power house but a system with fun games that anyone can play.  The controllers aren’t meant to be a limit to the system but allow you to play in new ways and the focus not being solely on graphics and a new way to game gives developers a chance to create games in a different way and while yes that adjustments can be difficult the fact that Intellivision works so closely with all developers should help limit those issues that come from working in a different way

[Loafer]

44 minutes ago, mr_me said:

The Amico controller is a disc controller; a proven directional pad.

I like it but its not proven to the 2019 casuals.  In saying that casuals use touch screens so they'll adapt

[Papy]

9 hours ago, PlaysWithWolves said:

freedom inspires more creativity.

Needs are what inspires creativity. Not freedom.

 

Every time I thought of something new, it was because I had a problem to solve. Sometimes this problem was as stupid as winning an Internet argument, sometimes it was as serious as optimizing the scheduling of the production of a factory in order limit downtime as much as possible, but every time I thought of something new it was because I had a problem that I didn't know how to solve. It was because I had a need.

 

Freedom is something we feel when we can implement a solution we thought of. It's about, "I have an idea, I can implement it, therefore I'm free." This feeling of freedom happens only when we don't have to think of something new anymore, that is when we don't have to be creative anymore. So no, freedom doesn't inspire creativity at all.

 

Having said this, I agree being excited for having limitations feels a bit masochistic. That's why I said I didn't know if IntelliMission was being sarcastic. However, his point stands. Because of the hardware and "marketing" limitations of Amico compared to the PlayStation 5 or the X-Box whatever, developers will have to be creative if they want their games to sell.

[IntelliMission]

My message was serious but the "exciting news" was a bit of an autoparody. I have been asking for censored Wolfenstein 3D remakes on the system and Tommy said that would never happen, then saw the picture of the commandments with the "no 3D roaming" message... so I was trying to look at the positives.

 

What I said about limitations encouraging creativity is not an opinion, it's a fact. See modern AAA titles and how they are usually inspired by games created 20-30 years ago or are direct sequels of them (or how a famous company just released an ugly 3D remake of a 2D masterpiece and somehow people think it's the best thing ever).

 

Creating fun and original games must be more fun than creating the same game with better graphics... maybe that's why Tommy said developers were loving the process.

Edited September 25, 2019 by IntelliMission

[roots.genoa]

"When forced to work within a strict framework, the imagination is taxed to its utmost and will produce its richest ideas. Given total freedom, the work is likely to sprawl." T.S. Eliot

And I could find several similar quotes. It's really difficult to come up with an idea of a game (or a film, a novel, etc.) starting from scratch.

[+cmart604]

What was this thread about again? 

Oh yes.... 🥓🥓🥓🥓🥓🥓🥓🥓

[PlaysWithWolves]

My intention was never to derail the thread.  It was to point out the absurdity of a statement in a thread where the fanboysim has gotten a bit fanatic (OP, case-in-point). 

 

I think there may be a lot of good things yet to come from the Amico front.  I, personally, am curious about the controllers and how they'll interact with the games.  

[Blarneo]

20 hours ago, Loafer said:

Loading screens suck but depending on how large the game is (large in data/textures, not "videos") that can affect the loading times to some extent.  I doubt we completely get away from that but Tommy's already said they are dialoging internally about this.  Def don't want to see a 20-30 second loading screen to get to the menu, then another 20-30 second to get to the game. Oh PSX, how I don't miss thee for this type of crapola

Uh' no. There is no 'but' in this. Loading screens just plain suck. 

 

The universal acceptance of optical discs may have saved on costs, but that decision forced the entire gaming community to get used to it. Cartridges were instant on, and flash drives are 10x faster than the Sony royalty frisbees.

[IntelliMission]

I have some terrible news about the Amico from Tommy's Twitter:

 

Quote

I would say about half the games in development right now are 8 player capable. Almost all the games have at least 4 players and we have a few that are only 2 player. The majority is definitely going to be 4 - 8!

 

This console looks worse everyday. 😄

[atarifan88]

I was under the impression that Tommy said you would be able to play games as 1 player AND multi-player (2-8 players).  If all the games are not going to have the option for one player in the case that nobody else is around to play...

 

Even the Wii had an option for 1 player only.  I hope this is fake news or something has been terribly misunderstood!

Edited September 25, 2019 by atarifan88