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Tommy Tallarico - Fun Amico Conversations

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3 hours ago, Nolagamer said:

Majority.of video game physical media you have to download from ps4 on

The difference with amico id its apparently more of a collectible.  

If you have to download it then it is not a physical game.

 

In order for it to be a physical game, the playable game data must be in the store bought package and playable in it's originally packaged form. 

 

If the internet is needed, then it is not a physical game.

 

There are loads of physical PS4 games.  I have a shelf full of them that have the game data on the disc and do not require any internet connection to play out of the box.

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16 hours ago, Bonkey Kong said:

I consider anything that requires internet to play out of the box a digital game so yes the big 3 do sell digital games in retail boxes.  Nothing wrong with that as long as it is clear to the consumer which it is not always that clear unfortunately.

 

Gotcha.  Thanks for further defining your definition. 


I purchased Formula 1 2021 for $79.99 in physical form recently (some special edition version to milk more money out of me).  It said that I needed to get an update online.  It took a few minutes of online connection before I could start the game.

I feel that I purchased a physical copy of the game.  You disagree with that. 

That's fine.  We'll agree to disagree.

 

 

16 hours ago, Bonkey Kong said:

 

>If a game is playable out of the box without internet connection then it is physical game. 

 

And what if a month later the game is no longer playable unless you update it?

Does that mean a once physical game is no longer physical even though it was at one time?

 

 

16 hours ago, Bonkey Kong said:

Nothing wrong with digital games by the way. 


If you wanted to split hairs... every single game ever made is "digital".  It's all just zero's and one's.  :)

 

Some are delivered via cartridge, some on CD's, DVD's, Blu-Rays, others stored directly on hard drives. 

 

 

16 hours ago, Bonkey Kong said:

There are going to be many people that will love your retail versions of your digital games for sure since I know there will be some cool collectible items included.  Heck, I might even buy a couple of them myself if I like what I see when you finally reveal them...but again... it if it requires internet to play out of the box, it is not a physical game. 

 

I think where people get hung up about "digital" is the thinking that once something is purchased in digital form (i.e. on your hard drive) can you then trade it?, give it away, loan it to someone, sell it on Ebay and will it be able to be used in 20 years if no servers exist.  And when that is the case... I agree with you 100%.  If those things are not able to be done... then it is digital.

I can appreciate that folks may not think that what we are doing should be classified as "physical", but to be fair, we haven't released official information on what our physical games are or how they work.  There has been a lot of misinformed guesses (even by Amico fans) and for the folks who are aware of what we are doing, they absolutely classify it as a physical game.  Keep in mind as well, we have recently been calling what we are doing a "physical game" not "physical media". 

I would just kindly ask that folks be a little patient and once we show off what we're doing... it will become a lot more clear as to how and why what we are doing is very unique, never been done before and is definitely considered a hybrid of digital and physical.  We've taken the best of both worlds.

The industry and technology is changing from decade to decade.  And although our chip isn't leading the charge by any means.... some of our ideas and way we are incorporating things are.

 

Appreciate the discussion.

 



 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

Gotcha.  Thanks for further defining your definition. 

yeah man, thanks for your reply as well

17 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


I purchased Formula 1 2021 for $79.99 in physical form recently (some special edition version to milk more money out of me).  It said that I needed to get an update online.  It took a few minutes of online connection before I could start the game.

I feel that I purchased a physical copy of the game.  You disagree with that. 

That's fine.  We'll agree to disagree.

I agree that it sounds like you purchased a $60 physical game and you paid an extra $20 for a special edition that includes some optional DLC.

17 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

 

 

And what if a month later the game is no longer playable unless you update it?

Not sure how this is possible. If I have a physical game that does not require internet to play out of the box, this can not happen unless the physical game is physically damaged. I mean if I never have to connect the game to the internet, how would it know if it needed an update?

17 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

 


If you wanted to split hairs... every single game ever made is "digital".  It's all just zero's and one's.  :)

 

Some are delivered via cartridge, some on CD's, DVD's, Blu-Rays, others stored directly on hard drives. 

A physical game has the game data on the physically purchased item and can be played without downloading anything from the internet.

So yes a physical game contains the digital data on a physical item and can either be played directly from the physical form or installed to the console directly from the physical form and enjoyed without internet DLC.

17 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

 

 

I think where people get hung up about "digital" is the thinking that once something is purchased in digital form (i.e. on your hard drive) can you then trade it?, give it away, loan it to someone, sell it on Ebay and will it be able to be used in 20 years if no servers exist.  And when that is the case... I agree with you 100%.  If those things are not able to be done... then it is digital.

I can appreciate that folks may not think that what we are doing should be classified as "physical", but to be fair, we haven't released official information on what our physical games are or how they work.  There has been a lot of misinformed guesses (even by Amico fans) and for the folks who are aware of what we are doing, they absolutely classify it as a physical game.  Keep in mind as well, we have recently been calling what we are doing a "physical game" not "physical media". 

I would just kindly ask that folks be a little patient and once we show off what we're doing... it will become a lot more clear as to how and why what we are doing is very unique, never been done before and is definitely considered a hybrid of digital and physical.  We've taken the best of both worlds.

The industry and technology is changing from decade to decade.  And although our chip isn't leading the charge by any means.... some of our ideas and way we are incorporating things are.

 

Appreciate the discussion.

 

I also appreciate the discussion.  However, your own Commandment #9 says "No DLC."   

 

It sounds to me like Amico games are 100% DLC.

(nothing wrong with this by the way, in 2021 an all digital console is probably the best way to go for the Amico for potential vast appeal)

 

It just seems to unfortunately alienate the OG retro game players who still really take physical games seriously. I know in your heart, you know exactly what a real physical game is.  You have an amazing collection of systems that play physical games that do not require internet. You are a good salesman though and quite good at spinning information which is a necessary skill in your position so I get it.

17 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:



 

 

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Bonkey Kong said:

yeah man, thanks for your reply as well

I agree that it sounds like you purchased a $60 physical game and you paid an extra $20 for a special edition that includes some optional DLC.

Not sure how this is possible. If I have a physical game that does not require internet to play out of the box, this can not happen unless the physical game is physically damaged. I mean if I never have to connect the game to the internet, how would it know if it needed an update?

A physical game has the game data on the physically purchased item and can be played without downloading anything from the internet.

So yes a physical game contains the digital data on a physical item and can either be played directly from the physical form or installed to the console directly from the physical form and enjoyed without internet DLC.

 

I also appreciate the discussion.  However, your own Commandment #9 says "No DLC."   

 

It sounds to me like Amico games are 100% DLC.

(nothing wrong with this by the way, in 2021 an all digital console is probably the best way to go for the Amico for potential vast appeal)

 

It just seems to unfortunately alienate the OG retro game players who still really take physical games seriously. I know in your heart, you know exactly what a real physical game is.  You have an amazing collection of systems that play physical games that do not require internet. You are a good salesman though and quite good at spinning information which is a necessary skill in your position so I get it.

 

Let’s take retro consoles out of the equation only because as much as I enjoy those it isn’t a fair comparison to modern consoles in one major aspect.  If you release a game with a bug on a retro console there is no way to repair that bug.  On any modern console it has to be connected to the internet or have some other way to get updates for either firmware updates or bug fixes for games.  
 

I may be remembering some of the following wrong but as I recall these are the things we know about Amico physical releases.


1. You must connect to the internet to verify the game is an official copy once that is initially done you won’t need to do it again 

2.  There will be no paid DLC on the console but any patches to fix bugs will be pushed in the background.

3. Use of technology makes that physical game you bought able to be sold on the secondary market and playable and now owned by the new buyer.

 

Given just those three points I personally would consider the media as physical as any current consoles allow.

 

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45 minutes ago, Alpha82 said:

Let’s take retro consoles out of the equation only because as much as I enjoy those it isn’t a fair comparison to modern consoles in one major aspect.  If you release a game with a bug on a retro console there is no way to repair that bug.  On any modern console it has to be connected to the internet or have some other way to get updates for either firmware updates or bug fixes for games.  
 

I may be remembering some of the following wrong but as I recall these are the things we know about Amico physical releases.


1. You must connect to the internet to verify the game is an official copy once that is initially done you won’t need to do it again 

2.  There will be no paid DLC on the console but any patches to fix bugs will be pushed in the background.

3. Use of technology makes that physical game you bought able to be sold on the secondary market and playable and now owned by the new buyer.

 

Given just those three points I personally would consider the media as physical as any current consoles allow.

 

 

I have many physical games for modern systems that are fully playable out of the box with no internet connection required. 

Edited by Bonkey Kong
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2 hours ago, Bonkey Kong said:

 

I also appreciate the discussion.  However, your own Commandment #9 says "No DLC."

 

2 hours ago, Bonkey Kong said:

You are a good salesman though and quite good at spinning information which is a necessary skill in your position so I get it.

With all due respect, I think you know his DLC commandment has to do with additional add-on charges for games. Someone else is also skilled in spinning information. (I actually agree with most of your points, but your spinning does show hand on your motivation). 

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59 minutes ago, Bonkey Kong said:

 

I have many physical games for modern systems that are fully playable out of the box with no internet connection required. 

 

A patch is not DLC, which is what you are implying, based on your previous post before this one. Yes, patches/updates can be annoying. But that doesn't make them DLC. DLC specifically refers to extra game content (which usually involves extra cost, but not necessarily). You're still getting a complete game out of the box or from the point of purchase. But you may get periodic improvements throughout the life of the game.

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1 minute ago, squirrelgotdead said:

 

A patch is not DLC, which is what you are implying, based on your previous post before this one. Yes, patches/updates can be annoying. But that doesn't make them DLC. DLC specifically refers to extra game content (which usually involves extra cost, but not necessarily). You're still getting a complete game out of the box or from the point of purchase. But you may get periodic improvements throughout the life of the game.

For a game to be physical, any "patch" needs to be an optional thing. As long as the originally purchased game is playable without the patch then the initial physical release is still a physical game.

 

DLC is any and all downloadable content where the actual data was not included in the retail boxed version. So if the game is downloaded from the internet servers after you buy it then it is not a physical game.

 

All Amico games are 100% DownLoadableContent.  You are basically purchasing DLC in a retail package.  Nothing wrong with that, let's just call it what it really is.

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11 minutes ago, Oldfool said:

 

With all due respect, I think you know his DLC commandment has to do with additional add-on charges for games. Someone else is also skilled in spinning information. (I actually agree with most of your points, but your spinning does show hand on your motivation). 

I realize that his 9th commandment is meant to mean, no paid additional DLC after initial purchase so did I spin it? Yes but his entire reply to me was full of spin so I gave him some back. Fair Game I think.

 

Although, he has very clearly stated in a recent interview, that some commandments are made to be broken.

 

This 9th Amico commandment is probably one of them that will be broken at some point as will others and that is fine. I know they are just initial guidelines and not set in stone.

 

Just pointing out that by definition DLC = any and all downloadable content, including the game itself if it is initially downloaded from internet servers.  

 

Thank you for your reply.

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1 hour ago, Bonkey Kong said:

I realize that his 9th commandment is meant to mean, no paid additional DLC after initial purchase so did I spin it? Yes but his entire reply to me was full of spin so I gave him some back. Fair Game I think.


I politely gave you an answer to your question.  But because you don't agree with the answer I'm "spinning" it?  I would respectful say that I don't feel that is a fair rebuttal.

I think you are getting really hung up on terminology here.  I think this is a very subjective topic but from your comments here and on other threads you are very passionate about telling people that we don't have physical games.  But in fact we do.  And until you actually know what we're doing... it's probably a little unfair to declare that we don't.  And although folks may not agree on specific terminology, it's doesn't necessarily mean someone is right or wrong or that someone who doesn't think the same is "spinning". 

And again... you are totally fine to have your own thoughts and opinions on the matter.  I don't think you are spinning anything.  We're having a friendly discussion. 

Let me take another approach to explain my thoughts on physical products.

What is this?

WoW_Box_Art1.jpg.6b4face6d9ba849c3acaaa3211391afd.jpg

 

That is the physical product/game for World of Warcraft.

Do you need the internet in order to play it?

Yes you do.  Along with every other MMO.

But by your terminology... this doesn't count as a physical product.

My work here is done.

 

:)

 


 

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1 hour ago, Bonkey Kong said:

For a game to be physical, any "patch" needs to be an optional thing. As long as the originally purchased game is playable without the patch then the initial physical release is still a physical game.


I'm just curious... do you own a PS4 or Xbox One? 

A lot of today's physical media games require you to have an internet connection in order to play the game these days.


Here's an Amazon link to Battlefront.
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Battlefront-Standard-PlayStation-4/dp/B00W8FYFBA
 

Some of these you can buy digital... others you can buy physical.  In all cases... you need the internet to play the game.
 

 

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15 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


I politely gave you an answer to your question.  But because you don't agree with the answer I'm "spinning" it?  I would respectful say that I don't feel that is a fair rebuttal.

I think you are getting really hung up on terminology here.  I think this is a very subjective topic but from your comments here and on other threads you are very passionate about telling people that we don't have physical games.  But in fact we do.  And until you actually know what we're doing... it's probably a little unfair to declare that we don't.  And although folks may not agree on specific terminology, it's doesn't necessarily mean someone is right or wrong or that someone who doesn't think the same is "spinning". 

And again... you are totally fine to have your own thoughts and opinions on the matter.  I don't think you are spinning anything.  We're having a friendly discussion. 

Let me take another approach to explain my thoughts on physical products.

What is this?

WoW_Box_Art1.jpg.6b4face6d9ba849c3acaaa3211391afd.jpg

 

That is the physical product/game for World of Warcraft.

Do you need the internet in order to play it?

Yes you do.  Along with every other MMO.

But by your terminology... this doesn't count as a physical product.

My work here is done.

 

:)

 


 

First off, very cool that you are so active on this forum.

 

That photo you posted looks like a PC game.  Everyone knows that PC games at some point became a product key in a box which is why many OG game console players do not play PC games.  We stick with our traditional consoles classic and modern that still play real physical games even though we all know the industry is trying to end physical games.  I think you would agree that most OG video game console players consider a physical game one that is playable out of the box and does not require internet.  

 

Not saying that your retail downloadable game product is not a physical product since I am sure it will include physical items.

 

Only saying that the game itself which is the main point of the product is not what most old school video game enthusiasts would categorize as a physical game since it will need to be downloaded off the internet.

 

The majority of OG video game players I think would more closely agree with me that if the game requires internet, it is not a true physical game and I think you have acknowledged that.

 

I am past it and only commented so many times because I had a lot of replies which is very cool and making me really like Atari Age forums because most everyone has very logical and sensible opinions.

 

So yes, Amico will have physical merchandise, but the initial game itself is a downloaded game more like a product key, not a physical game. 

 

I understand that you have some innovative ways of packaging it and also for the potential of sharing, trading, re-selling which is awesome in my opinion and I am keeping an open mind on whether or not I purchase an Amico.

 

So yes I would completely agree that you have physical retail packaging containing physical items that also includes a digital download of the game. No physical game included at time of purchase though.

 

Thanks again.

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31 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

Let me take another approach to explain my thoughts on physical products.

What is this?

WoW_Box_Art1.jpg.6b4face6d9ba849c3acaaa3211391afd.jpg

 

That is the physical product/game for World of Warcraft.

Do you need the internet in order to play it?

Yes you do.  Along with every other MMO.

But by your terminology... this doesn't count as a physical product.

My work here is done.

 

:)

 


 

 

That's the no-good video game series that made most of my friends forget there's a real life goin' on for a few years.   😠

 

But in regards to the "physical or not" discussion that's going on, I view it as "not really," since it's nothing more than a license to download it placed on a disc.  Sure, it's something physical, but it's pretty much the same as these, to me ---

 

GiftCards.jpg.c16e54eea34877bc19a751eea2619c00.jpg

 

 

You bought something you can hold in your hand (physical product) but it sure as heck doesn't have the game on it.  Not even a base, vanilla version that you can play "as-is"

 

 

Related --- that box, on the back, does have the decency to spell out something like "requires a constant online connection to play," and "will only work for 30 days"

 

Will Amico games say something like "requires a one-time, really quick n' painless connection to internet" and "will work forever and ever and ever and ever....?"

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


I'm just curious... do you own a PS4 or Xbox One? 

A lot of today's physical media games require you to have an internet connection in order to play the game these days.


Here's an Amazon link to Battlefront.
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Battlefront-Standard-PlayStation-4/dp/B00W8FYFBA
 

Some of these you can buy digital... others you can buy physical.  In all cases... you need the internet to play the game.
 

 

Yes I own both PS4 and XBOX One.  I have stacks and stacks of true physical games for both consoles that never needed any internet connections to play them.

 

I am not really wanting to compare the Amico to these other consoles but there are still plenty of physical games on PS4, XBOX One & Nintendo Switch that do not require any internet to play, hence physical games. 

 

As long as it is clear on the packaging that it requires internet, it's all good, but does not make it a physical game.

 

I realize completely that the Amico may not be for everyone and that is totally cool as you can't make everyone happy.

 

I also think it was a smart business decision for the Amico to appeal to a wider consumer base by not have physical games so I am not knocking it.  The majority of people do not care at all about physical games nowadays.  

 

It is just a very interesting topic and some of us old schoolers still take physical games very seriously.

 

Thanks again for your reply.

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It seems like there's a difference in view over what a "physical" game is. I think most of the issue is that a physical game from 1995 is not the same as a physical game from 2021. My physical game for the Genesis is different than discs I have for my PS4. I will always be able to pop my Genesis game in, turn on the console, and play it just as I did when it first came out. But the internet changed the way games are distributed, for good or bad. 

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22 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

No disrespect, but I was just curious if you consider all of the PS, XBOX & Switch games that you buy "digital media"?

Don't forget Steam, my god, when steam sales hit I'm like many here Im sure, I go on a buying frenzy ( my backlog grows by the month)  :)

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9 hours ago, IntelliMission said:

When people talk about the body Vs. the mind, they don't realize the mind is part of the body.

I would disagree, actually trying to understand where the conscious resides has perplexed philosophers and scientist etc from the beginning and still does. 

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Hey, do you all remember a few years back when Adobe accidentally made Pro 8 available for download because they were taking down their activation servers? Well I have a physical box, disk and legal key. But its useless to me now. Where do Amico games and physical products fit in? Do we need a third term to accurately describe these products?

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1 minute ago, JasperAK said:

Do we need a third term to accurately describe these products?

Well special editions and preorders etc from retailers have had a box and even some trinkets etc and a code you plug into the browser to download, so not actually having the physical disc/cartridge etc is not new and shouldnt weird out anyone.

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1 hour ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


I'm just curious... do you own a PS4 or Xbox One? 

A lot of today's physical media games require you to have an internet connection in order to play the game these days.


Here's an Amazon link to Battlefront.
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Battlefront-Standard-PlayStation-4/dp/B00W8FYFBA
 

Some of these you can buy digital... others you can buy physical.  In all cases... you need the internet to play the game.
 

 

This really is not about that Star Wars game you linked to... but just adding that, it is not a very good example to use since it was designed for online multi-player so obviously you need the internet to get the full experience.  It is however playable in a single player offline mode without any internet connection at all.  I would not be comparing online multiplayer games to couch co-op games, it don't make any sense to do so.  I also would not be comparing PC Game Download Keys to your Intellivision Amico Game Console games.  It really is not relevant.  

 

It is now very clear that Amico will be selling Digital Game Downloads in retail packaging and that is completely ok and you have publicly acknowledged it from your end which is all good.  At least we can agree that Amico does not have traditional physical games.  That is quite obvious.  I look forward to learning more about your retail versions of your digital downloadable games.

 

Thanks again.

 

P.S. I know about that Star Wars game, because I own it and it is playable in the offline mode without internet however bad it may be.

Edited by Bonkey Kong

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2 minutes ago, vongruetz said:

It seems like there's a difference in view over what a "physical" game is. I think most of the issue is that a physical game from 1995 is not the same as a physical game from 2021. My physical game for the Genesis is different than discs I have for my PS4. I will always be able to pop my Genesis game in, turn on the console, and play it just as I did when it first came out. But the internet changed the way games are distributed, for good or bad. 


I agree 100%.

And others may differ... and that's okay.  I personally feel that my physical version of World of Warcraft is a physical game that I purchased at retail.  Other may disagree. 

It's an interesting discussion and clearly something that could be subjective.

That being said... we are calling the physical products that you physically buy in a store a physical game.  And it's not a download code like the Minecraft example & the Mario Switch games above.  But even those I would consider to be physical download card.  It's still a physical product, although not in the traditional retro or media sense.
 

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